the array of experiences / perspectives always amazes me so please consider this
the scene : my neighbor is having problems w / his sewage line
his line passes through my property ( appears maybe 7 – 12 ft deep )for about 160 feet / there is no easement / his home built in 1890 – mine 1900
above the line : 80 foot doug fir tree, 60 foot western red cedar, some sprinkler lines, one gas line, many hydrangeas, azaleas and much beautiful lawn
a private plumbing company plans to do this thinking they have unrestricted access to the 12 feet or so of “my” grass parking strip ( would maybe the city & public utilities have access but not private co. ? )
they have equipment that will go through the old drain tile pulling new 4″ pipe as it removes ( haven’t received explanation of this yet ) old drain tile from the hole they make in the parking strip all the way to his property
they have put a camera through it so know there is a line there / if there were breaks in the draintile the machine could not do it – it must follow a path
I want to be neighborly but also want to be protected
what do you suggest??
looking forward to your responses
Replies
The first thing you should do is read your deed and see if it contains any 'right of passage' or subserviance clauses pertaining to the neighbour's sewer connection. If it doesn't, you are should be in the clear. The neighbour can't have such a clause in his deed unless the corresponding one is in yours.
If there are any subserviances or rights of passage, the second thing to do is to find out if they are still valid or have been declared 'defective' by the courts in similar cases. Many older deeds contain clauses that today's courts won't uphold because they don't meet modern criteria as to precision or fairness or protection of rights.
In my area, for instance, hundreds of old 'right of passage' clauses purporting to give access to a lake through another property have been declared null and void because 'access' wasn't sufficiently well defined by the clause and the holders of the rights were exercising them in a fashion the court found abusive (ie: driving vehicles across people's lawns to haul boats to the lake, etc.).
Given the irreplacability of those trees, you would seem to have a strong case for preventing the neighbour from digging up your lot. IMO, unless his lot has no frontage whatsoever on the public street under which the muny sewer runs, a court would probably rule that he must run a new line that does not pass through your property, instead of trying to repair the old one.
You'll probably need a lawyer to unsnarl most of that, but you might be able to get some information from your local municipal authorities.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
Don't get too worked up until you've looked into the proposed fix. It's a minimally invasive technique that get used quite a bit in situations where open trenching isn't a viable option.
Since you want to be neighborly, if he does also, then the legal issues are only an interesting aside. Just tell him ahead of time that you expect the ground surface and landscaping to be returned to original condition when the work is finished.
if he is not neighborly, then call your lawyer to see what your recourse is, probably a stop work order from the courts, and force him to find an alternate route on other property.
but this would vary by state. Something this old could very well be grandfathered to him as a squatter's rights sort of easement unrecorded but valid. Even if he has that sort of protected use of your property, he is still required to make you whole by restoring the surface to original condition. If he fails to do so, you can easily win a lawsuit for the costs to take care of it yourself, IF you have documentation.
That means take a lot of pictures before, during and after.
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Absolutely, take pictures of everything the way it is now, and make sure they agree to restore everything back to the way it was. There should be minimal surface disruption, except at the start/finish area.
I have no doubt they can take out the old line and pull in a new one - here they have been putting in a 42" (yes, 42") high pressure natural gas line, and a bunch of it has been done by directional drilling and pulling the pipe in....including a 1.5 mile under the river crossing, through bedrock, all done by directional drilling and pulling the pipe. (took about 8 months) So a small sewer line should be no problem.
I don't understand - is the work to be performed in the Right-of-way between your property and the roadway or on your private property or what?. Or, maybe the question should be, is the work to occur right next to the road and does your property extend right up to the curb/pavement/whatever? When you say "parking strip" that seems to insinuate there is a sidewalk that normally would be on public property. Your statement: >> 12 feet or so of "my" grass parking strip << seems to insinuate that you know it is not actually your property.
Considering what all the others have said, if you allow this to happen, you are setting up a precedent and effectively granting a permanent easement. If you sell the property, that will have to be in your disclosure.
Not knowing for sure, I would guess that they are going to "burst" the existing line in place, while pulling in a new line.
It works by digging down to the line in two places, a starting pit (usually next to his house, and a receiving pit, as near as possible to the sewer line in the street. They then break into the line, and run a cable down the line, from the starting pit to the receiving pit. The cable is attached to a bursting head, ( a steel cone with several carbide cutters, that is slightly larger than the new pipe), that the new pipe hooks onto.
They then winch the cable through the old pipe into the receiving pit. The cutter, or burster breaks the old pipe into pieces, and the new pipe is drug into the void left. If the old line is a clay tile line, it will go pretty easily with no need to disturb anything between the two pits. If it is cast iron, the burster may sometimes get caught up at the fittings, and they will have to dig down at that point, and break the fitting apart, before they can pull past it.
Regarding your rights: Easement rights vary greatly from one state to another, so to be sure you may need to talk to attorney. But, before you go to the expense, talk to your local government, either the city or the county that will be issuing the permit for the work. It may be the building department, planning and zoning, or the sewer district if it is separate. But, whoever it is will know the portion to the statutes that relate to the easements required for the sewer line, and be able to explain them to you, or at least tell you which section of the codes they are in so you can look them up yourself.
Edited 11/22/2008 2:05 pm ET by Jigs-n-fixtures
your comments are most appreciatedsome context : I had heard of the possibility of something like this happening about six weeks ago after coming home and finding lines, arrows & numbers all over my lawn and within fifteen minutes my neighbor showed up to inform me of discovery of their sewer line under my property and the most reasonable solution to their predicament was to use the directional drilling / I commiserated & definitely expressed some reservationslast night 5:15pm or so I hear this huge truck hovering in front of my house ( I'm in process of bldg addition on my other neighbor's house ) and in the dark w/ some back light all these gigantic appendages jutting out - as I got close sure it is a big 21st century sewer line truck with every available pipe & fixture aboard and the guy is marking out power lines & info he has is there will be digging Monday morningthe footprint : ultimate access is sewer running down the street about 8ft in from curb - the line runs perpendicular from there crossing a 12 foot wide parking strip that consists of manicured lawn w/ underground sprinklers all of which I installed then a sidewalk that at my cost was replaced about 5 yrs ago then the big lawn, plantings expanse where presumably nothing will be touchedcontractor & client have their contract - I have nothing at this pointjust trying to figure out what to ask for - monies in escrow, something that says i get final approval of payment to contractor, request a bond - and it is the weekend & the last thing i wanted was to have to consider this w/ most professionals out of action until Monday when I plan to be jamming for final prep for an electrician to begin w/ me wiring additionthis board is tremendous for my situation ( each one of you shared information participants ) many thanks & I'm still listeningpostscript : the end of the dig where majority of machinery & biggest hole will be is the city owned parking strip that i described above
Edited 11/22/2008 4:10 pm ET by johnharkins
Edited 11/22/2008 4:13 pm ET by johnharkins
Eight feet in from the curb may be within the utility easement area and you can't do much about them working there.Since this sounds like something that's gonna happen real soon, you might be better off talking to your lawyer ASAP to find out what - if any - recourse you may have.
John, I had my sewer line at a previous house replaced by trenchless. As described above they dug a 3' x 3' pit at the house, and another at the street. The puller was located at the street and the new pipe fed in from the house. It is a quick process. Sounds like the only issue is the pit they need to dig in your grass. If they remove the sod and replace it the repair should be hard to spot.
Question for you...
So, what does this type of "retrofit" cost??
I have a property where this might solution to my problem. probably 110-140 feet to replace. Lots of existing redwoods(roots) and oaks and rocks(Big rocks)
I know, different places, different circumstances, different prices. But, I'm currious
Thanks, Brian
I paid about $3000 for a 50 foot line. They pulled the permit ($$$), did the concrete demo (driveway ramp about 6x10 and part of a slab about 3x3), hauled the debris, did the pipe replacement, and backfilled everything). I had a concrete guy replace the ramp and I patched the slab myself. That was about 2002.
Thanks for the quick response. That doesn't sound too bad.
In a city environment it's a real hassle. They had to bring a backhoe to do the digging, so there's a trailer and a dumptruck for hauling the spoils to deal with. Then there's immediately protection--cones, barricades, etc. The piping rig is a separate ordeal, not as big as a dump but they had a fair amount of gear to handle. I think the permit was about $500, since they were digging in the public right of way. The inspector came by twice, once to see the tie-in to the main, and once to check compaction. I wouldn't touch it for $3000.
It depends a lot on how many drains are tying into your lateral. If all your drains tie together in your crawlspace and go below grade at one spot, it costs less. If you have more than one drain tying in underground, it costs more.
they (and I apologize if this is obvious...) have to dig down to the lateral everywhere a line ties in, or is tied into (at the municipal end). This is a minimum of two holes, but can be more, depending on how many drains leave your house.
for a remodel we did this summer in Berkeley, it was $4200 for the new +/- 80' line with three holes at the house and the one at the street, backfilled and new concrete & cleanout at the driveway.
k
Oh yeah, and to the OP- I'm one of the guys who said it's no big deal, and I stand by that from a construction standpoint. But I also said if I was your neighbor I would have talked to you about it at length, by which I most certainly did not mean his trying to get you to sign papers at the last minute over the weekend. I still imagine this can all be resolved amicably, but yikes, that sets my antennae off.
Edited 11/23/2008 2:49 pm ET by KFC
That seems like a great price for that. Maybe it's a more competitive market. When I was shopping it around there were several prices $5000+ for my job.
I should edit that post. Now that I think about it, we backfilled, not them, which cost us about $300. And two of the lines tied in at relatively shallow depths. But yeah, it has gotten much more competitive around here. That was Rhino that did it, I think pipespy bid at 5k or so.
k
It was actually a Berkeley inspector who told me where to shop. The first round of guys I talked to were quoting far too much... enough so that I could just demo my aged driveway slab and dig it in. Harry Clark did mine, later I had Pipe Spy do another for a client in Piedmont.
really appreciate this sounding boardMrDoud yes an encumbrance is to be avoided
could you say something more about your phrase " 2 yrs in court to keep an easement off our property"
is that a developer or municipality trying to force a lease & they contest you hoping their coffers outlast yours?SanJuanDave ; my sentiments exactly and I'm thinking if this was me I'd be ( they are physically desperate ) offering to pay the attorney of my choosing to facilitate itMigraine ; retrofit cost / one aspect of this that is critical from my understanding is this machine needs the olde line to provide its direction - if some of these tiles were askew it would not be a slam dunkI would guess this is about 180 feet with new sewer connection at city sewer & one at their residence / digging on my ( city owned ) parking strip rather than the public right of way street which would cost more / heard figure after my saying something like wow is this somewhere in $ 16 grand range & he said about 12 grandFastEddie : those lines you quoted were my thinking out loud modifications to an easement I may draw upAnyone ever encounter / hear of an easement with language like I posted earlier " at the pleasure of owner / in the event owner chooses to develop the lot the grantee is responsible for moving the sewerline to a site approved by owner at the cost to the grantee etc...
thanks guys
>>Anyone ever encounter / hear of an easement with language like I posted earlier " at the pleasure of owner / in the event owner chooses to develop the lot the grantee is responsible for moving the sewerline to a site approved by owner at the cost to the grantee etc...<<That would seem on the face of it to negate the easement.Steve
that would seem to negate the easementthat would be the ideal scenario for mepresent enough of an easement to appease municipality to permit with the grantee ( my neighbor ) having no rights beyond the effluent passing through that pipe
my story doesn't have a lot of parallels with yours - local govt (good ole republican 'don't want the govt to tell me what I can do with my land' hypocrites) attempted to ram a 'regulated drain' easement associated with a creek that flows thru the property - actually, they did it, and we spent two years getting the action overturned, one of the commissioners unelected, and $7K of our money returned via a civil rights suit - my blood just boils thinking about - I guess one parallel is the gall exhibited by both our county govt and your neighbor assuming they can have whatever they want on their own terms - I'm all for 'good neighbors' and making reasonable accommodation - but easement is a taking, and there should be 'valuable considerations' - if you go to sell, your property is devalued by the existence of that easement - if they go and bore thru there and find another neighbor's drain tapping in right in the middle of your yard, they can wallow/crash a backhoe right thru the yard, dig a hole, and 'oh, ya, we've restored your yard and your 80' tree' - don't let them do a thing, except on your terms - and your terms require a posted bond and no easement - my 2 cents -"there's enough for everyone"
Because the line has been there for over 100 years I'd be very friendly approaching this matter. Not a particularly good negotiating position.
I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding here. (or maybe I'm reading you wrong)
>> I would guess this is about 180 feet with new sewer connection at city sewer & one at their residence / digging on my ( city owned ) parking strip rather than the public right of way street <<
Take the word "my" out of that sentence.
The parking strip is part of the public right-of-way. And you don't have any more control over that area than your adjacent neighbor or any other tax payer in your town/city. Just because it is in front of your property and you decided to landscape it doesn't make it yours.
I attached a plat for a house I'm building right now. I modified it to help you see what I'm talking about. The R-O-W width is marked in purple. The area inside the red box is the piece of land that will belong to whoever buys the house. That is what their deed will cover. Any utility company can come and dig in the "parking strip" area with only permission from the city. The HO has no control over it.
If someone wanted to dig a utility trench inside the red box then an easement would be necessary.
Edited 11/24/2008 7:57 am ET by Matt
if someone wanted to bore a drain for an adjacent lot thru the red outlined area, I'd wager you'd have issues with it - whither your oak tree?"there's enough for everyone"
good morningFast one : w/ my recent troubles ( small claims thread couple months ago ) I'm thinking more I get a quote & he prepaysconcerning Matt's comment I'm totally w/ MrDoud on this one
I would imagine ( only imagine ) there is language to direct said utility to return work area to original conditionas far as what I definitely own I think the public right away may very well include that parking strip, the sidewalk and 8' beyond into what i consider my yardyou might notice every time I used that my it was w/ quotation marks or followed by city owned - that has not been lost by me but whether it is w/ our families number of vehicles or me & my pitch fork I'll be there if I feel I'm being wrongedoff to officialdom to hopefully get his sewer flowing
thanks, john
Ok John, it's noon on Monday, what have you done? Are they digging? With or without your approval?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
It's just after 9 out here...
Stoopid daylight savings time. I saw the time stamp on his last post as "11:26" and forgot to check where he he was. And I'm so used to people not having their profile filled out.
Hey, but it is after 9 on Monday morning, he should have made a decision by now and taken some action."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
just checking in w/ my consultantsit is 10:46 am & I've visited w/ city sewer; talked on phone w/ title company & my homeowner insurance agent & it seems like a few other parties of interestand my neighbor who needs sewerI'm doing due diligence to get him on track & he works for a big financial institution w/ lawyers & he's thinking someone in that department can create a document for himthe down & dirty of my communication ( related to him w/ more favorable nuance ) w/ him is it would behoove him to have his counsel confer w/ me as he is or before he prepares document & that anything he prepares will be reviewed by an attorney chosen by me ( have an appt. for tomorrow 2pm ) or my attorney will prepare documentand i said I felt he should pay for my visit
no real reaction but he did not say no
I'm off to make final preparations for beginning wiring addition I'm building Ciao, john
I thought you said that the truck was moved on site late last week. Is it just sitting there?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Hey Fast one
no that big behemoth truck was what the local electric utility guy was driving to line out where power might have been underground and he was the one who said on his orders it said for digging monday morn but no digging until easement satisfied for permit to be issuedif & when we have a reunion at Senor Blodgett's I'll include you in with Meiland & Doud on a gratis field trip up to Paradise for some stupendous hiking including wildflowers, wooly marmots, glaciers & volcano / mountain vistas
Paradise, Mt Rainier that is
back in pm for further developments, ciao
John, maybe it's different in Washington, but I have never, ever seen a utilty company of any kind restore anything they've torn up, for whatever reason, to it's original state... it's always "Well, that's about as good as we kin get it"... and usually it's not even close. Document, document, document... and then get your neighbor to really fix it ;-) Now you see this one-eyed midget
Shouting the word "NOW"
And you say, "For what reason?"
And he says, "How?"
And you say, "What does this mean?"
And he screams back, "You're a cow
Give me some milk
Or else go home"
and i said I felt he should pay for my visit
are you saying you now want him to pay you for your time too?
<!----><!----><!---->
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day. Matt Garcia
Right - but my impression is that John thinks he has control of the area outside the red rectangle. He doesn't seem very adept at answering questions though. This whole thread is based on him saying the neighbor wants to install a new drain on his property - which I'm not sure is the case.
Edited 11/24/2008 6:14 pm ET by Matt
If it is the city right of way it is , but if it is your land you should have to sign a consent form , if you don't that will get their attention if they are unresponsive to your concerns . Locally water lines sometimes pass from one through another property but typically sewer or septic lines do not in general , unless the lots were one , once then split .Could also be the property was re surveyed at some point after those lines were put in and went un spoke of .
good luck dusty
O K you guys I was feeling comfortable with this whole process and thinking that I would grant permission ( with very clear language that in granting permission i was not granting, conveying gobbldee gook easement ) for their making the run 7 hoping for the bestthen my neighbor calls & said he was hoping i could come over & review / sign some paperwork and i asked if it had anything to do w/ an easement and I told him I had my reservations signing an easement ( Thanks Dino )verbiage : for valuable consideration, the Grantor hereby grants to the Grantee, their heirs and assigns, a perpetual easement and right of way through, under, and across the following described real estatethen : such easement is described as follows: sewerline replacement on south side of lot to include 10' along sewerlinethis sewerline dissects a potential short plattable lot that I may want to build onever heard of an easement with language like exists at the pleasure of the owner and if said owner chooses to develop his property the Grantee will move the sewerline at his expense and maintain owners property to original condition
sewerline may be 11' or so deep there but what do I know & basements are common here
thanks, john
"at pleasure of owner" sounds like you have the right to terminate the easement.
"Grantee will move the sewerline" sounds like you can force him to pay for moving the sewer line if the property is develioped.
Sure sounds like you need to find a real estate attorney real fast."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
"... for valuable consideration,..."and what is this 'valuable consideration'?it's a lot easier to grant an easement than to rescind one - under the best of circumstances, the easement reduces the value of your property - at worst it gets you in court arguing the value of trees/shrubs/landscaping - and even if your neighbor is a fine fellow, nothing says he's going to stay there - the worlds largest a-hole could buy his place - dunno - do know we spent 2 years in court to keep an easement off our property (local drainage easement), and would do it again - find some way to address his concerns without encumbering the property - my two cents - "there's enough for everyone"
I am thinking that it is possible they are forcing this so fast because they have a true emergency, but it is equally possible that they are trying top make a force play over the weekend to keep you from having a chance to consult your lawyer.I think my answer would be, "I'm sorry if this inconveniences you, but I would never be foolish enough to sigh something like this without time to consider it and to have my lawyer review it for me,s o I can understand the consequences of signing this over to you."I note that the language you quote is brief and assume there is far more, but it does state, " for valuable consideration"so is the valueable consideration enough to consider this? In other words, how much are they willing to pay for the easement? I just paid eight grand for one, though it was a more extensive thing than this is. I know of another similar to yours that cost somebody two grand. Another where easements were swapped with each other.my thinking is that you might want to know what the extra cost would be for them to run a new line totally on their own property to the street. They obviously want to employ the current line location because it is cheaper.
but suppose that a new line would cost them ten grand on their own property, and this line insert might be three grand, plus a thousand to restore your property.
That saves them six grand. are they willing to put some share of that in your pocket for the easement, say four grand to you? And is it worth while to you to grant them this use for that amount? I do think that the point of insertion at the street is probably within the rights of them to set up there as it is normally in the right of common use setbacks up to a varying distance for different locations, but the company doing it should also be made aware that you have NOT yet signed any easement. A untility company here refused to install one for me until all the proper paers were on file.Being enighborly is good, but this is starting to sound like they are pushing the bounds of neighborliness.If this is 11-12 feet down, odds are good that you could build over it without disturbing the line, but there could also be legalities and code issues to contend with - might need to research that one.Remember to keep taking notes and shooting pictures.
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I would not sign that without my lawyer approving it. Asking you to do it over a weekend is ridiculous. Who do they propose pays your lawyer?
If their sewer is absolutely non-functional then they need to go stay in a motel until they can get it repaired. It's not your emergency.
Sounds like he talked to HIS lawyer to protect himself. Now, it's time to talk to yours.
Also got thinking. With him wanting you to sign this agreement show proof that hes recognizes that he doesn't have current rights/easements to your property? Get a copy with his signature(not yours) so you have proof of this recognition. You might need it later, in court to proof/protect your side
Re. relocation of the sewer line if you want to build.
Yes, an easement or contract language like that has been written.
I did it a few years ago in Northern New York where a piece of property we were involved with had overhead utility lines running thru it.
The challenge for the neighbor is that he might have a hard time swallowing the 'at his cost' and who is to say he will have the money when it is time.
You might want to address an alternative sewer path now if there is another way to outlet the sewer.
Also, because the sewer was there, he might have some rights regardless of not having an easement. (You might want to check that out before you take a hard position on it) There are certain "Squatters rights" laws in many states. I have no idea how that would affect a sewer issue but that is a legal matter.
So they knew there was a problem six weeks ago and now they want you to sign something urgently over a weekend? There be goblins there.My inclination is that it's best for you and your neighbor to have his sewer line on his own property (though I do wonder who's responsible for the lead cleanup in the future under your lawn).It must be awfully expensive for him to do that if he's willing to go to these lengths. Or he's planning to sell soon.
Ditto what David said. They do trenchless sewer all the time out here, under streets, driveways, trees, plantings, etc... Since the bay area is almost completely built out, you hardly ever see sewers replaced by back hoe. It's really no big deal.
the only holes are at the connections (to the city lateral and at the house, unless there are other lines tying into it). as long as they backfill and repair the area at the sidewalk, I don't see the issue.
I would have talked to you about the process if I were your neighbor, though, just to let you know it's no big deal.
Is there some history which would make him want to "ram it through" before you get involved? Seems like a little communication could resolve all this.
k
Actually, now that I think of it, there is an issue, in that all that raw sewage that's been seeping into the water table via the cracked old line won't anymore.
This is good and bad. For public health reasons, obviously fixing it is good, from the trees' perspective, fixing that line may deprive them of nutrients and water. My rose bushes were a lot happier before I had my line redone...
you may find you need to fertilize and or water plantings along that line a bit more than before.
k
I really appreciate hearing your experiences and am feeling much better about it now
and I'll get to work augmenting the feeding of those newly deprived plants
I've had to get a bond and bind the neighbors to my G.L. working on beach houses where scaffolding has to be erected on a neighbors lot
Are you seriously worried about your neighbor's sewer needs messing up a part of you grass parking area? Come on.
be a decent neighbor and let it get done. Tell him quite simply "just make sure they put it back like they found it... catch ya later".
This reminds me of the little old lady that sits in her window all day waiting for the neighbor kid's ball to go a few inches into her yard.
Even if you are apprehensive about something so meaningless... (an area of grass that you drive on)... it will send a message to your neighbor that you are being petty... and that is no good for neighbor relations.
Maybe I am misreading your post but this is what it seems like to me.
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day. Matt Garcia
well taken MrDoud and my apologies for raising olde better forgotten battlesalso insightful there sledge / my friend and usual electrician is a former attorney & he has spoken that may constitute an easement in & of itself but it is not on my title or deed so it would not go down easyand yes pete there is a chance you have not read my whole diatribe - this sewerline would run right under a piece of land I ( or future owner or my kids ) could choose to build onmy stance is to head to city hall tomorrow morning & see just what is required - if the permit can be rewarded w/ my just giving permission I'll write up a document preserving valuable consideration & stating it is in no way an easement implied or otherwise; if one develops the lot he will be responsible toamend the route of sewerline at his expense; document to be disclosed & be conveyed by title or something of the likeif city needs easement I'll suggest he pay for a lawyer to prepare a document for me containing all above provisions & more w/ just enough room for him to get his sewerline and take him to lunchI'll report back w/results on both permitting issues & the digging
thanks & good night
Edited 11/24/2008 1:43 am ET by johnharkins
I'll suggest he pay for a lawyer to prepare a document
I hope you mean he will reimburse you for a lawyer you choose."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
"I'll write up a document preserving valuable consideration"That is confusing the snot out of me!
Consideration is something paid for, not retained and preserved, AFAIK.one reason lawyers are paid to do this sort of thing is that so many people try to DIY it and end up saying the opposite of what they intended.
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Around here when "valuable consideration" is needed, such as when a statutory warranty deed is signed, the "valuable consideration" is ten dollars U.S. That's enough to get a 20 oz. mocha and a nice pastry, and leave a tip.
It's the way he's using the term that was confusing me.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"Consideration" is needed to make most contracts binding. The definition I give to my students (undergrads) is:
Consideration is what is given in exchange for the benefit obtained under a contract. It is often defined as a legal detriment. It is the price paid for the promise.
It is a bargained for change in position. It is what each party gives up to the other. It can be an act, forbearance [define] or detriment [define].<!----><!----><!---->
When used in an agreement, e.g. "for good and sufficient consideration" it is intended to make a deal binding even if no money or anything else changes hands. The proposal to the OP does not have any benefit for him or detriment to the abutter, so the abutter's lawyer inserted the reference to consideration in order to make sure it is enforceable later, if necesary. Nominal consideration, like $1 or $10, serves the same purpose, as does the use of a seal or recitation like "witness our hands and seals this 25th day of November 2008."
The advice you and others have given that he needs to consult a lawyer is sensible, because he runs the risk of granting an easement that may be more sweeping than necessary and could create problems down the road. For example, would the new easement allow the abutter to dig up the yard next time? Cut down a tree whose roots interfere with the pipe? RE law is tricky (and boring) and even with almost 30 years of law practice, I would never attempt to draft an easement myself.
Edited 11/25/2008 1:14 pm ET by smslaw
Edited 11/25/2008 1:14 pm ET by smslaw
I unde4rstand that about the purpose of consideration and how the proposed easement used the term.What was confusing was the OP trying to draft his own document to "preserve" consideration, instead of recognizing it.
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What was confusing was the OP trying to draft his own document to "preserve" consideration, instead of recognizing it.
I understand. Non-lawyers drafting legal documents is like lawyers drawing building plans. It can be done, but rarely well.
John,
This is not a situation that you can solve on Breaktime. All of may have an opinion, but the only thing that will count in the end is the law applied to your circumstances.
Stop screwing around and second guessing. Politely tell your neighbor you appreciate his proposal and naturally you need to talk it over with your lawyer. You should ask your neighbor to provide a written description of the work they intend to do. Take both to your lawyer.
You may or may not get your neighbor to pay for your lawyer, but that's secondary to getting it right. A good contract up front is the key to peace of mind and avoiding conflict down the road.
Pete
all ears here& no MrBradley I'm not expecting final solution to be arrived at on this site but I'm so aware this group provides background & foundation like no other group I could ever assemblelike Slaw mentioning the tree might have precedence over the sewerline
myself & my attorney may never have come up w/ that onea comment i did make to him was I will have to amend the feeding of rhodies, azaleas & evergreens because they will be deprived by modern piping - he loved it & I got that bit of humor from one of my valued associates right herewhere we are at is it is in his lawyer's hands & he thinks he'll have document tomorrow - I have discussed this w/ an attorney & yes he responded as Jeffin pointed out he may well have some rights / adverse possession & little things like the fact he asked me to sign / create an easement also shows he doesn't think he has oneand yes Jeffin we have considered options but the least invasive other than chance of hindering future development is the directional digging but it is dependent on following olde lineMatt I'm well aware I don't own parking strip & your red line comes up into my yard about 6 feet beyond the sidewalk i replaced about 6 yrs ago but the plan is for the sewer to go Under our property about 160 feetvaluable consideration - I think I got that from our own MrDoud and then saw it in action when my neighbor presented me w/ a boilerplate wide open easement form where that was featured languagePete Dragonic - pay for my time - nowas that you Snort document, document, & utilities underperforming:
thank you for continuing to remind me & we may be on better footing in that this is a private company but I'm considering asking neighbor not to make final payment until he has conferred w/ me ( you guys have any ideas ) so I can try sprinklers etccan't help but think it will be a big hole in the parking strip w/ much settling over the yrs??haven't thought w/ real focus but I like the tree root idea; thinking of addressing parameters like maintaining residence as single family home ( w/ finished basement it is for sure over 5,000sqft ) - if one has a swimming pool they wouldn't drain through sewerline would they??I'll keep you posted & so appreciate your participation
Edited 11/26/2008 1:34 am ET by johnharkins
You may want to include a maintenance and damage clause for the future .
well I received my neighbors rendition of an easement he expected me to sign and i resolved not to look at it until after Thanksgiving Day until my neighbor ( who will also be encumbered about 30 feet ) called to tell me he had read it & he said the two of us & our wives were coupled as the Grantors of the easement & the most glaring clause he saw ( he was pissed ) was that if we wanted to change route of sewerline or the like we would do it at our costI had discussed w/ my neighbor who needs easement that we would like him to have access but any legal document we would sign would have provisions like any changes we would like him to cover realignment of line, maintain his home as single family residence and maybe consider something restricting a swimming pool if people drain pools in sewerlines
then he comes back with 180 degree decree that i would pay for changesI told him i felt i hadn't been heard and that i though he was confused as to whom the grantor & grantee are
and in close i told him i'd be putting the document on the fence & he could do w/ it what he wantedhe & his wife were very upset & came over & we argued & all was left that our affairs were in worse shape after they commissioned their $ 1500 incendiary documentdon't know what kind of estimates they have received for alternative routes ( think they must be more ) but I told them i would prefer they take that track than pursue this adversarial tactwho knows where it goes from here
are you saying they wanted you to sign this away for free!?!
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yes there is no mention of payment nor have i mentioned or requested payment
what I was expressing / hoping for is he would agree to his covering any costs to changing course of sewerline if we wanted to develop property - his document says I cover all costswhat is interesting to me is in the legal descriptions of our properties in this document it notes there is a recorded legal easement concerning my neighbor who has about 30 feet in this sewerline saga and a couple of his other neighbors not involved in this threesome
it is revealing in that in 1903 there was a proper way to handle this & the sewerline in question was not handled properlyto me handshake agreements are supreme ( if there was one ) but what elmore & wesley may have decided in 1900 has taken on many implicationsthanks for your interest
John,Not a lawyer, but I deal with them almost daily. My experience is that many are hardwired to lead with the "screw the other guy" document, as apparently your neighbor's atty did. I think most lawyers enjoy the game, but they overlook the fact that non-lawyers find such a document insulting and become less likely to deal.I'm not sure how salvageable your situation is at this point, but I'll once again suggest that talking to your lawyer sooner rather than later is the key to piece of mind. Seems to me you want to help your neighbor out, but not give away your land or take uncompensated damage. Your neighbor wants his sewer to work. It should be possible to write up a plain English agreement that gets you both there.It may sound ironic, but I've found that the best business relationships (and this is one) get the lawyering done right up front, leading to no surprises and good relations going forward.As far as posting to Breaktime goes, your question is a lot like the "is this beam strong enough?" questions. Everyone's got an opinon, no one really knows your situation for sure, and the right answer is to get a pro.Best of luck!
Edited 11/30/2008 7:30 pm ET by PeteBradley
John,
I know I have had a different appraoch to this than many other here, including you.
now it appears that you have ruined a relationship with a neighbor and caused him hardship all over a piece of pipe that is under the ground that nobody ever sees or cares about (until it has to be replaced). it has been under there for MANY years without a problem and could continue to be under there in the same manner if not for you making it into a horrible situation for all.
I am stumped as to what benefit you could have possibly sought in the first place.
I am sorry for being so blunt but it has sounded like nothing more than pettiness on your part... and it definitely was not neighbirly in any sense of the term.
Ask yourself this question, when this is all over, what will you have gained or accomplished? I think the answer is obvious to us both.
<!----><!----><!---->
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day. Matt Garcia
i don't think it's about the pipe itself. once david meiland and I explained the trenchless replacement was relatively painless, he seemed quite reassured.
his neighbor tried to get him to sign a binding legal document over the weekend before work was to begin on the monday before thanksgiving. talk about being un-neighborly! that was what set everybody off, i think. if his neighbor had simply talked to him and not tried to get him to sign anything, I bet his reaction would have been different.
i agree with you that being obstructionist simply as a reflex is bad karma, but i would have had a strong reaction to the way the neighbor presented the legal document itself. if someone pressures me to (hastily) sign something, i'm going to slam every brake i've got... regardless of what i know about the construction issue itself.
just my 2 cents.
k
That's how I saw it also. The actual procedure is painless. The neighbor threw some stupid paper at John and he started feeling less cooperative. I had a neighbor do the same once. DO NOT knock on my door with a document you want me to sign.
I'm the same on this. I would not mind granting it to him, but to ask me - almost try to force me, to sign over an easement with language that would COST ME in the long run is ridiculous to the Nth degree. I've been on both sides of easement issues and will probably again in the future. In EVERY case, the grantee is giving something in return for the fact that he encumbers the grantor's land. The only questionable variable in this case is the possible grandfathered rights of the neighbor.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I felt like he set the negative mood earlier on with his reluctant to cooperate and that probably set the neighbor into CYA mode for a drain that he definitely needs.
<!----><!----><!---->
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day. Matt Garcia
OK, not to argue, but let's put me in the neighbor's place.I rfind out my sewer is failing and that the line runs under my neighbor's property. Curios because I don't 5recall that mentioned in the deed, I do some research and find out5 that there is indeed some question whether I have any legal right to have it there...maybe yes, maybe no....Since I don't want to dig up my own property and landscaping at great expense to my self, and I do want to make this all legal so there is no question if I ever decide to sell the place, I am now in kiss-arse mode big time! I realize that any cost to use his property that ends up net less than tearing up my own is a savings to me, so I am willing to negotiate up to that amt of money to make him whole. It might be something other than money too. I might supply him with firewood for ten years, or keep his wife from being lonely or whatever else he brings to table. I know he is being asked to encumber his property and possibly lose value on it if HE decides to sell someday, so I am happy to make up fair value to him up to a certain amt.Now then, I realize that I am outstandingly mature and realistic besides being good looking, smart, and smelling good occasionally, and that all people are not up to that standard, so I realize that it is possible that if I were one of that lesser breed of mankind, I might feel frustrated or angry and upset at the situation and the fact that it is going to cost me some money! So I might just end up directing that anger at my neighbor for not lessening the cost and simply giving me the easement on my own terms rather than his. I might pout and throw a hissy fit, but after I cool down, if he approached me right to explain things rationally, I might come around, get over my anger, realize that my sheet stinks ( more every day that the sewer is failing) and get myself an equity loan to cover what needs done.only if I am a supreme axzhole, do I threaten him or expect him to bear any of the cost of this situation. of course, if I have clear and compelling evidence that I have some sort of claim of prescriptive rights or implied easement, I would simply make that case logically and without emotion, assure him that I will bear the cost of returning his property to the same appearance as before this came about, and offer a steak dinner at the eatery of his choice, and I am sure he would realize that we are all wonderful people.
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Piffen, that was truly fun to read from start to finish.
Why thank you!please pass the salt...;)
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I felt like he set the negative mood earlier on with his reluctant to cooperate and that probably set the neighbor into CYA mode for a drain that he definitely needs.
well, i think there's some truth to that, in that he was concerned from the get go. Having been through trenchless replacements a few times myself, I would not have been as concerned, and said as much to him. he seemed to take the info about that to heart, and relaxed a fair bit, for which I give him credit.
but i don't think you can hold it against him for being startled initially, he only found out about the whole project by talking to the guy in the truck who was laying out the cutting zone. i mean, how long had his neighbor been planning the job? it takes a couple of days at least to pull a permit for something like that in my neck of the woods.
I do respect your point of view about not getting lawyerly for no reason. I did a bunch of fences when I was starting out, and you learn a lot about people by the way they handle fence jobs and property lines. I could tell you a bunch of stories (and some of them involve neighbors' sewer lines) but I'll save that for another day.
put it this way- if your mom, or your dear auntie, or somesuch called you and said:
(in heartwarming quaking voice, of course)
"Petey dear, I just wanted to ask your advice- the Gunderson fellow over on Peachtree lane came by on saturday with his lawyer to have me sign something because he wanted to do some sewer work monday across the back yard where my prize roses are..."
you're telling me you wouldn't be a little miffed at ol' man Gunderson?
k
"I could tell you a bunch of stories (and some of them involve neighbors' sewer lines) but I'll save that for another day."LOL, just how long DOES a fence post last with the bottom setting in a sewer line?;)
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LOL indeed. I can laugh now...
k
Pete, I think your notes are insulting bordering on abusive. Time to dial it way back.Pete
I dont see how PeteDragonics notes are either insulting or abusive, he is just expressing another point of view....what this forum is all about IMO
I dont see how PeteDragonics notes are either insulting or abusive, he is just expressing another point of view....what this forum is all about IMO
And I think he was partly responding to some of the other posts as much as the OP, a few of which did come across as somewhat combative. I'll let him speak for himself, though.
k
Granted that my opinion may have been formed by reading both the OPs comments as well as the responses to those comments.
and I will concede that I don't know the OPs neighbor from Adam and therefore do not know any history if any exists that might warrant the OPs reluctance to be overwhelmingly cooperative.
So, maybe the OP was justified alll along but all I can gauge my impression on is what I see here and now.
So.... I may be completely wrong about the OP. I might also be right on about him and shining a light on an area of this discussion that is underexplored.
at any rate, it is just my two cents... and I am nobody important, for sure.
<!----><!----><!---->
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day. Matt Garcia
I think you're right about being neighborly. I just think the OP's neighbor put him in a real difficult spot. the guy would have had to be Ghandi to shrug all that off.
k
but, iirc, the neighbor didn't ask for much at first. The OP seemed very reluctant to be cooperative for an underground pipe that has been there anyhow for half a century I suppose. He was worried about grass neing messed up in his parking strip. I can't think of anything that sounds like less of a reason to be concerned than that.
I think of these things like this... if it were my pipe how would I hope my neighbor would react... or more appropriately, treat others as you would like them to treat you.
wouldn't it be something if the OP discovered next year that his drain needs replaced too and it runs under that neighbors property. how do you think that will go now?
<!----><!----><!---->
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day. Matt Garcia
you know, i just re-read the first few posts, and the OP says something about hearing about this six weeks before the weekend in question.
I don't remember that from my first run through; either I missed it (a definite possibility), or the OP added it in editing.
I still sympathize with the guy, but I can see your stance a bit more if that was the version you saw. I remember seeing a different version, but maybe in my own head? or maybe details are dribbling out? edited posts blur these longer threads, to be sure. at least for the dain bramaged among us. if you've got perfect recall and followed this from the day 1, enlighten me.
Is there a way to re-construct a thread exposing its various edits? otherwise some posts are responding to comments which may have been changed... I'm responding to post 88 based on what I remember posts 1-12 to be without re-reading them each time. sketchy, considering my short-term memory... and possibly non-sensical if the OP changes the OP's.
k
It's not important enough to go back through... just responding to my impression of the situation.
I could be wrong. It's been known to happen.
<!----><!----><!---->
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day. Matt Garcia
thanks for following - and the editing thing - i have only edited within the first 30 seconds or so of posting
I do not type, write & think as well as many of you dotimeline; yes I got wind of situation say 5 - six weeks before coming home to lines & numbers spray painted on my lawn - within 2 hrs I was visited by my neighbor who told me about their problem and in about his third line he mentioned he wasn't concerned about parking strip because they can dig there - i thought gee I wouldn't say that to anyone and looked to research what he seemed to be presentingnot one word about it until this weekend before Thanksgiving
I have definitely been consumed by other neighbor's addition; visit to Montana for a parent's weekend & the then coming Thanksgivinganyone knowing long term remodeling knows 12 hrs a day eight days a week is not enough for displaced clients & this ( my client ) is my neighbor (s). I don't think I thought about it one more time before hearing big utility truck in dark 6pm Friday night & asking him what's up & his mentioning planned dig for Monday
that is when I brought it to the Breaktime sounding boardand i appreciate all this feedback whether obstructionist as reflex or I should offer overwhelming cooperation and next time Piffin I'll fill you in on more of the particulars & I'll enjoy your prose even more
I so hate to bore anyone but they can get on to another thread
Draganic is probably the closest to my neighbor so I'll go there
where this has evolved for me after much consideration cold hearted facts my family has 40% less in holdings outside our home than in 2007
our home with this appendage that is a buildable lot with no contingencies ( if there is no easement for sewer running down the middle of it ) has probably lost 15 - 20%
with the presence of easement easily 30% and of as much importance the specter of what happens if this can of worms is opened ( development demanding relocation ) who pays, how much does it cost , is there any money left over after lawyers are paid, any goodwill, can you put 90 degree sanitaries , can we get this to return & still use previous city hookup, this state has no income tax, a city within 9 miles of here charges over 7,000 dollars for new hookup, we have a japanese maple that was determined iconic by japanese temple here that mysteriuos to us died this last year - it was right over this newly discovered drain - had previous neighbors put poison down drain to eliminate root obstruction
I'm a third of the way through & they may be petty to some but I'm thinking alternatives & the public right away through 100 feet of my parking strip suits me or my property line
to the south of current line- both will be many times more messy in the short term but not a huge encumbrance on my property
my lunch break is over / until later, thanks
I appreciate your hashing this out with meI have no explanation but after much discussion with the powers that be they have decided to let the digging begin without legal easements drawn up or grantedkind of like a permission slipthird world bureaucracy but I'll take it in this instance
sounds about right to me.
neighbor gets to update existing drain line (good for municipal water table).
you don't sign away any rights, your concern/protest is officially noted.
to me the signing of papers was the issue, not the project itself.
k
i guess the only thing i'd watch, if i was you, is how they patch the sidewalk where they pull from. offer the crew some coffee or something. otherwise it should be a pretty painless procedure. (famous last words...)
My gut reaction is to rant and rave about how the adversarial nature of what lawyers do (regardless of what really makes sense) makes this industry almost not worth working in. However, it's the way things are so you should play the game.
I'm not claiming to know all that much about the legal issues, but it seems from a shallow business law class taken 10 years ago that if you historically allowed some one access to your property they can claim future use of that space as an easment if you like it or not.
If I remember right a key issue is how you reacted once the use became known to you. For instance if someone starts using a bit of your land for a driveway and you don't take reasonable steps to do anything to stop it, it would eventually meet the legal threashold for an easment.
With burried pipes that you have just found out about, my guess is the time period to meet a legal threashold for an easment begins once you find out about them rather than how long they have been under your property.
Perhaps your local laws consider the pipes automatically grandfathered in as existing in an easment since they have been there for a lengthy amount of time, maybe not.
Personally, if I were in a generous mood I'd wish them good luck on the pipe pull and hope they don't run into problems. Being the poster child for "no good deed goes unpunished", I'd then want to add an addition over the buried pipes and have to pay to relocate them simply by allowing them on my property.
A middle of the road approach would be to get advice from a lawyer on what you need to do to protect yourself from events that might take place down the road.
However, with the adversarial nature of our legal system most lawyers will want to take your side to the extreme and the neighbor will most likely be forced to live with the crappy existing pipe until it totally quits working. In the end you won't have gained anything and the neighbor won't either. Sadly, human nature seeks situations that prevent anyone from gaining something for nothing, even if it doesn't impact them one bit.
I have been too nieve most of my life, working with and for people who seek to do the right thing, rather than pick people apart. However I lost a significant amount of money this year by believing in doing the right thing and one of the most honorable and quality concious remodelers I know lost close to $100k last year for doing the right thing.
Don't know if that appies to your situation.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
i think I have the credentials to be a fellow member of that do the right thing club ( small claims court thread maybe July ) but my not having been licensed / bonded at that time may disqualify me among some on this boarddon't know if you've read all but you have good sense of mood of situationthe attorney I will use if it comes to that mentioned that he may very well have rights / the fact he is asking for an easement shows he knows he doesn't have an easement ( very much the adversarial tone ya )and the discovery by me in reading his latest easement proposal noting the easement on my neighbor's property for unrelated matter shows there was a proper way to do it in 1903the arbitrary nature of law - I hope the fact that there are a number of alternatives available ( maybe more expensive ) to my neighbor carries weight too
Who is the Grantee on the other recorded easements and what is the benefit accorded by these easements?
Do they have anything to do with the run of your neighbor's sewer line?
In some of our neighborhoods the city sewer line is run in an easement that is between the rear of all the properties so no line actually has to cross anothers whole property to get to the main. In my neighborhood, the main lines run in each city street right of way which means that everyones sewer line is contained within his own property and does not cross any other property.
Would it be correct to say that your neighbor has a front yard on another street but the city was too frugal to run lines on each street - way back when - to accomodate tap-ins.
It will be interesting to see if these neighbors will claim the easement under the Prescriptive Easement rule, ie, no one has objected to the usage for a hundred years, so tough luck now.
(from Wikipedia)
Easements by prescription, also called prescriptive easements, are implied easements that give the easement holder a right to use another person's property for the purpose the easement holder has used the property for a certain number of years, which varies from state to state. Prescriptive easement is not the same as adverse possession, which allows a party to acquire title to real property by asserting possession over it for the statutory period. Requirements vary among states to successfully claim adverse possession. In California, for example, an adverse possessor is required to assert possession of the property AND pay all property taxes for at least five years. Prescriptive easements are a type of implied easement, in that they arise even though they are not expressly created or recorded. Unlike other implied easements, however, prescriptive easements are hostile (i.e., without the consent of the true property owner). Prescriptive easements do not convey the title to the property in question, only the right to utilize the property for a particular purpose. They often require less strict requirements of proof than fee simple adverse possession.
Once they become legally binding, easements by prescription hold the same legal weight as written or implied easements. Before they become binding, they hold no legal weight and are broken if the true property owner acts to defend his ownership rights. Easement by prescription is typically found in legal systems based on common law, although other legal systems may also allow easement by prescription.
Laws and regulations vary among local and national governments, but some traits are common to most prescription laws. Generally, the use must be open (i.e. obvious to anyone), actual, continuous (i.e., uninterrupted for the entire required time period), and adverse to the rights of the true property owner. The use also generally must be hostile and notorious (i.e., known to others). Unlike fee simple adverse possession, prescriptive easements typically do not require exclusivity.
The period of continuous use for a prescriptive easement to become binding is generally between 5 and 30 years depending upon local laws (usually based on the statute of limitations on trespass). Generally, if the true property owner acts to defend his property rights at any time during the required time period the hostile use will end, claims on adverse possession rights are voided, and the continuous use time period resets to zero.
In some jurisdictions, if the use is not hostile but given actual or implied consent by the legal property owner, the prescriptive easement may become a regular or implied easement rather than a prescriptive easement and immediately becomes binding. In other jurisdictions, such permission immediately converts the easement into a terminable license, or restarts the time for obtaining a prescriptive easement.
Government owned property held for common use is generally immune from prescriptive easement in most cases, but some other types of government owned property may be subject to prescription in certain instances.
Prescription may also be used to end an existing legal easement. For example, if a servient tenement holder were to erect a fence blocking a legally deeded right-of-way easement, the dominant tenement holder would have to act to defend his easement rights during the statutory period or the easement might cease to have legal force, even though it would remain a deeded document.
Right-of-way for access is among the most common easement by prescription.
Hey Ralph I appreciate the contributionneither of the two attorneys I have spoken w/ mentioned the prescriptive easement but may have alluded to it when they mentioned my neighbor may have some rights
at this point it has entered into the hostile zone for me
nothing is recorded or legally binding at this point & we plan on defending ownership rightsthe grantees of the easement you referred to are neighbors of the one wanting me to grant ( grantor ) easement and yes they provide for easement & maintenance of sewerlines that run through my neighbors yard and yes all of them have frontage on another street which is more of an arterial than ours
my only hunch is the streetcar ran down their street and our street was unencumbered??other than feeling a little vulnerable considering the grandfather / prescriptive / and adverse possession potential scenarios I'm in a holding pattern hoping they opt to go for alternatives - the most obvious the messiest for us because it will involve about 100 feet of our parking strip inc. bball court I put in for my kids, some very special MtFuji cherry trees etc all to be done by backhoe - not underground BUT will not encumber potential of our land
and yes for Matt & others I know I do not own the parking stripone note my wife related to me all explained in our lengthy deed ( are those called didactics or the like? ) was due to neighbor / legal challenges our house was built in 1900 instead of 1895I would like to preclude / eliminate any chance of that happening again
I'm with you & your lawyer
Kind of an interesting sidenote:
What would be different or what would be the same as of your present situation;
Say you were developing that part of your land where the sewer is located. You are under serious time constraints (weather, banks. wifes etc). During digging you discover your neighbors active sewer line, smake dab in your way of progress. You and the evcavator had no prior knowledge of the sewer line. Do you cap their line and therby make their home unlivable or do you relocate their line somewhere else (maybe on your property). Who pays for the delays and extra costs? What about the easements to be recorded?
Kind of a similar mess that could have easily occured at your property.
Best of luck. remember you may have this same neighbor for many years to come.
John, my lawyer once told me to avoid using a lawyer as much as possible because usually all it does is make people upset and all defensive and hard to work with, but sometimes we have no other choice. Good luck.