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Anyone here been involved in this?
The background:
Sent my best friend (125 lb. chocolate Lab) to meet his maker about six weeeks ago. Looking for a new pup, found a breeder with some real nice yellow Lab stock. He had a sweet female of 8 weeks, wife got hooked, now we have a sweet female of 8 weeks.
Problem is, breeder has just introduced an Irish bloodline to his stock. It added ten pounds, an extra inch of forehead breadth, and a thicker coat to his stock – no pups available til the end of the year and I want one. I can commit to the dog now and get first choice on the litters of two females and one male from this line. The genetic lines of the pup we just got and the Irish influenced stock are separate so they can be bred safely.
The question:
I’m considering the possibility of breeding the dogs and selling pups. I am wondering about the economics of this game and would appreciate hearing about anyone’s experience with it. I’m not looking for a gold mine; its more a case of really enjoying dogs and wondering if I can subsidize the hobby.
All advice appreciated!
Replies
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Millions of animals are euthanized every year in the US, including all breeds of purebreds, though it's doubtful any of the people breeding the purebreds thought they would end up homeless. The last glut of a "bred" dog at the shelters was the Dalmations, from all the kids who had to have one after the movie came out, but didn't realize the commitment. Please enjoy your "best friends" as something more than a hobby.
Well, you DID ask...
b ;^)
*Not to worry, I'm not considering a puppy mill. I was raised with dogs (it only really shows up at the supper table) and hold them in higher esteem than I do most people. We've got sufficent room on our land and in our hearts that we would end up keeping all the pups if I wasn't satisfied with the homes they were going to. We also have a very good SPCA system locally, no dogs and only 13 cats euthanized last year so shortage of good homes is not likely a problem.The guy we just lost came from the SPCA as a one year old and we found out later he was a good quality registered dog. Funny thing, my father raised and trained Labs for many years, including a Canadian Field Champion in the '60s, but the absolute best of the bunch was my recently departed friend.
*I used to have a bitch Golden with great lines and conformation. Bred her twice (responsibly.)The economics aren't nearly as good as they look at first glance.Plus: on average, the pups went through 25 pounds of puppy chow a week and put on, collectively, 5 pounds. I got to deal with the left over 20 pounds No mas!
*First no lab should be 125 lbs. This sound awfully heavy for such an active breed.Second Splints is right, there are way too many dogs and cats out there already. Every dog you "produce" just means one more at the pound that has to be put down. Third IMO pure bred dogs, while wonderful companions,are becoming to inbred. almost every popular breed has potential health problems because of this. The AKC folks may have some "facts" to argue this but I don't see it that way, Dogs need to have the gene pool stirred up a little it will do alot for the species as a whole but will not be so good for people who are in the dog breeding business Fourth, Breeding dogs is not something to enter on a whim and you WILL NOT make money if you do it right. Properly taking care of a number of a large no. of dogs requires alot of time and $ (fenced area, kennels, vet bills, quality dog food, exercise time, training time, bedding, chew toys....)Get as many of the darlings as you can give a good home and cherish thier companion ship be cause they truly are mans best friend.But just stop by the animal shelter first an see if you can't make some "not so well-bred" dog Happy.You wont be sorry!!Here is a some pics of our 'Poopers'Beauregard and IsabellaMr T
*Nice lookin' critters, particularly in the way they fold in so close to you!Perhaps no Lab should run that large, but this guy did, and he carried it well. Seeing him coming at full gallop with teeth bared sent more than one shady visitor dashing for cover and left my wife smiling with relief. Joint problems didn't show up until less than a year ago.I agree that breeding shouldn't be undertaken lightly, also that inbreeding among the purebreds has created enormous problems for the breeds. The emphasis on Show quality instead of working characteristics has been very destructive.We've done the pound tours and because the adoption system here is so effective, the only available dogs are "problem" animals. The most notable was a Roti cross with a passionate and active hatred for men. While I am sympathetic, I don't want a biter or a runner.I appreciate the info, confirms my suspicions about the economics. They aren't the driving force behind the idea, but breaking even is neccesary. I was really impressed with the Irish influenced dogs; the genetic component they got from the stud is well separated from the North American genetic line and would refresh the genotype to a degree. The work doesn't scare me off either, but that might just be my ignorance talking. In any case, we are about two years away from any possibility of this happening. That should be enough time to thoroughly consider the issue.
*Dick, here's a link to a clearinghouse for pets, an associate of the ASPCA. I don't think you can get animals for breeding because anyone who works in those situations tends to frown on that, but you might find another perfect companion to your female. http://petfinder.com/Do ou have any idea what your shelter is doing to have such great placement rates? I'd love to talk with them!
*Hi sg. They have set up a network of foster homes and sattelite adoption centres. Six local veterinary hospitals and a big-box pet supply store have pound animals on site for viewing and adoption. Animals that arrive at the shelter sick or become sick are farmed out to temporary foster homes for recovery rather than being euthanized to prevent infection of the larger population. The foster system permanently absorbs a lot of animals. Every animal that goes through the system is neutered; local vets provide this service at greatly reduced cost. All the local papers run a pet adoption photo gallery, and the pound has a website with on-line viewing of animals. The website is never really up to date, but is current enough to get people calling them. Here is the link, my local branch is Nanaimo; note that they only have two of the dogs they list left, one being the manhater:http://www.spca.bc.ca/branches.htmFinally, they are very active fundraisers. Local government support is minimal but public awareness is high, so they manage, although they always need a little more than they've got.Thanks for the link. I'm not even entirely committed to a second dog yet. We started at the SPCA with nothing more than the intention to bring home a new dog and have been working out from there. Dogs are scarce her, particularly because we want a pup. This whole idea of breeding is a bit of blue-skying arising from my impressions of the Labs we saw. I would have preferred to wait for a male pup from the Irish stock, but came home from my Friday afternoon meeting with the guys at the local to an announcement we were picking up the female pup at 5:30 the next day. Because she is not yet spayed, because breeding rights do come with her (a real rarity around here, most breeders want about the price of the dog again for the rights) and because she is from sound stock, breeding is an option that I can consider, even if it leads only to rejection of the idea.
*Splints is right, there are far to many homeless dogs out there and far to many amateur breeders. This is more complicated than it seems. People who breed for size are overlooking the most important part: PERSONALITY. If you don't know what you are doing you can really mess the dog up. I have owned many dogs and learned my lesson early, don't by from a backyard breeder. No offense Dick, been there done that and won't go back.
*I have been exactly where you are now, and even farther. Right now, you are in the "thinking about" breeding stage. That's not a bad place to be. No harm done. Next comes the "checking out what all is involved" stage. Good stage also. Means you are starting to think about, and organize this idea. The really bad place to be is coming up next. It is called the "seriously wanting to become a breeder" stage. That's all I thought about, and the more I thought about it, the more I wanted to do it. It started to consume me. When I made it to this stage, I did what I thought was the logical thing to do. I visited several breeders in my region to find out EXACTLY what all was involved with breeding from someone actually engaged in the process. Reality soon reared its ugly head, and I saw the light. I did not find one single person that was breeding on a small scale (one litter at a time). When I asked about this, they all said the same thing - takes too much time, too much money, and too much energy for a single litter. Several litters, and several breeding stock is the only way that they can make any money at it. Single litters were COSTING them, not making them money. Vet bills will knock your socks off, and that is when the pups are healthy, and just getting shots and checkups. If they get sick, they will probably pass on the ailment/disease to each other, and then your vet bills get staggering. Also, if you want to breed animals to make money, you gotta get your breeders (both male and female) registered. Then (depending on state and location) you gotta get registered, and licensed. This costs money, and is a pain in the butt. You also open yourself up to lawsuits out the behind. Breeding animals for money ain't easy, and soon loses its luster for fun. It becomes a full time job, and much money and time is necessary to make it work. You gotta really love it, or you will give up soon. Be prepared, and visit a few local breeders to get the inside scoop on what it really takes to be successful at the breeding game. Anything less than a successful breeing operation is nothing more than a puppy mill, creating many unwanted animals. My situation was wee bit different than yours. I was gonna raise and sell Bengal cats. At $450.00 a kitten, I was thinking $$$$. I rescued 5 Bengal kittens, and started finding out how much they were worth. $$$ filled my head, and I soon lost sight of the fact that they were just kittens, and in need of love and attention. After all I went through, I just had my cats fixed, and now enjoy them as pets. They (in my opinion) are getting a much better quality of life out of the deal than they would have if I had bred them. Just a thought...James DuHamel
*I've often wondered about those kitties, James, after you posted the pics of them in the late summer. I''m glad you decided they are best off as friends.We've been talking dog breeds and training a lot over in Sprout Off recently. Fascinating.
*our last dog was our 2d rhodesian ridgeback... and the 1st one was a great dog... but way too aggressive.. after the first one was stolen... we looked around and talked to breeders about the characteristics we were looking for... namely .. a loveable slob... the breeders pointed us to one who bred from a line of "Companion Dogs"...the other breeders were interested in bloodlines that led to and from Westminster..good bloodlines for show.... but our breeder could show lines of Companion Dogs way back.. and she worked her dogs the same way... needless to say.. our dog was the perfect companion.. and a true buttermouth... nice to know with an infant in the house...so.. here he was .. 80 lb. of ferocious looking beast with a ridge of hair standing on his back... that wouldn't hurt a fly....almost makes you want to go get another one... almost..
*Mike, Companion Dogs...are you speaking of the dogs trained to pick up things for people and let them know when the phone is ringing..assistance-type dogs?
*Splinter - thank you for posting that link. Our Golden died a month ago (13 years old) and we want another dog. But after being around a puppy recently, we got to thinking it might be kinder to our other dog (12 year old Golden) if we got a young adult dog instead of a puppy. Didn't know quite how to go about it. We had a terrible experience with an SPCA adoption in 1986 that made us forever leary of adopting through a shelter.Through your link I found a local Golden rescue organization that looks just right. They also take Golden/Mixed dogs, which is what we'd really like. I'll let you know if (when!) we find a new baby.
*Lisa, i'm so sorry to hear of your adoption experience with the shelter and afraid it's not uncommon at all. Some of the volunteers get so mad at humans in general after seeing what they've seen...not right, though. A friend of mine tried to adopt a puppy at the local shelter and they wouldn't allow it because she has smaller kids. Her FIL tried to adopt a dog and they asked who he had in mind to take care of it when he died! The friend ended up buying from the dreaded Petland in the mall, puppy mill outlets that they are. grrrrrr..... I reported the story to the staff--hope it doesn't fall on deaf ears.Good luck with your search! I'd love to know who comes to live at your house!Now...if anyone out there thinks a lovely little Cocker Spaniel would fit the dog-shaped hole in his/her life..."Caruso" has wag, will travel! This is not a 7/16" OSB dog, but a full 3/4" lumber-core ply kind of best friend...
*Thanks very much, Dick. I know we've got to find a better way...burn-out factor is way too high here.
*companion dogs have completed obedience critera in sanctioned dog shows - instead of competing on appearance, they heel, sit, stay, etc - there are stages of acomplishment culminating in a CD - companion dog - it is not a gimmee - used to work for a dog trainer in a former life, good practice for raising kids - in regards to the original question, selling pups in no way to make money - there are puppy mills which are unfettered capitalism, and there are breeders who are enthusiasts, dogs are more of a hobby (very serious hobby in many cases), where bottom line is a secondary consideration - I see little problem with breeding desirable dogs, pups are relatively cheap entertainment and a great experience for kids, but not if you have to dump them - (wo)mans' best friend, indeed -
*Well give us a pic of the cocker spaniel already, Splints. You know I got a soft spot for them and labs.(Not that I could afford it. But I'd like to see it anyway.)b : )
*SG,As noted a CD is a type of training and award based on competition.My sister had a CD Lab, who was close to getting his CDX (Companion Dog Extradinaire - or something like that) when she and her husband ran out of time and energy.It takes a lot of work to get a CD award, and not all dogs will get there.I suppose it makes sense to pick from a line of CD's, breeding will out, but the CD is earned, not inherited.Dated a "dog trainer" years ago. Her position was that she was a people trainer: train the owners right and the dog's will come out just fine.
*i Her position was that she was a people trainer:she was/is exactly correct - it is amazing/depressing how many owners are incapable of following simple instructions consistantly - the vast majority of animals obedience train easily, if you follow the system. many people think they are doing the dog a favor to repeat commands, give half hearted corrections, ignore the approriate necessary routine of practice - I could make a case that you shouldn't be allowed to have children if you can't do a good job with a dog - - but I digress - - a good basic obedience course, 6 weeks, followed faithfully, will forge a bond between master and dog, based on mutual respect, and give the dog a purpose, which is good for its mental health -
*Armin, your point is 100% correct. The conclusion you draw is a bit flawed. Unless I misunderstand you...I have been very active in the dog world. To the point where I was doing consulting, etc. I know my creds so that's all I will say for now.The backyard breeder may just be the most passionate person when it comes to gentics, etc. He just might eat, sleep, and live for his/her purpose of improving the quality of the breed. Knowing they cannot make much difference with their tiny breeding program... but they will try.On the other hand... if you are speaking of the caual "backyard" breeder... then you are correct.
*This is a partial breeding checklist, from a friend who shows and breeds Boxers. He recently encountered a very complicated litter and I will post details after I discuss this with him.All relevant and available screening for genetic heart disorders attended? Screening for Canine Hypothyroidism and Canine Autoimmune deficiency attended? OFA or Penn hip scores attended? CERF certificate obtained? Acceptable reason for wanting to produce a litter established? Dogs registered with relevant controlling body? Knowledge of breed standard attained? Dogs assessed by experienced breeder or judge to see if they are worthy of being bred? Conformational faults identified and selection against doubling up on undesirable traits achieved? Knowledge on how to get a safe mating attained? Knowledge of how to attend a male with an unretracted penis obtained? Knowledge of how to treat possible injury after a "broken tie" obtained? Knowledge of what equipment needed for a safe and comfortable experience for the bitch obtained? Knowledge of whelping a litter obtained? Knowledge of how to recognize & avoid whelping difficulties obtained? Knowledge of what constitutes a whelping emergency obtained? Knowledge on how to resuscitate "flat" puppies obtained? Knowledge of how to care for a bitch post whelping obtained? Knowledge of how to rear neonate puppies obtained? Knowledge of how to manage orphaned or rejected puppies obtained? Homes available and ready to receive puppies when they are set to leave? Potential owners educated in puppy care? Potential homes screened (inspected) for suitability? This is the tip of a very big iceberg. Other experienced breeders could add to this list and make it 10 times bigger! If you can give detailed answers to these questions BEFORE you breed you will be halfway ready to undertake breeding a litter. If not, then do yourself, your dogs and the breed a favor and avoid mating. PLEASE. Breeding is not to be taken lightly, breeders are the guardians of their chosen breeds. If not undertaken responsibly all that will happen is we flood the world with more and more dogs of varying quality, usually not the best, and run the risk of supplying a less than healthy puppy to an unsuspecting new owner who has to then face the heartbreak of loss when or if a puppy from a poorly prepared litter dies prematurely from some avoidable problem.To read a book - we must first learn how to read To drive a car - we must first learn to control a vehicle To be a lawyer - we must first learn the law To be a breeder - is no different - we have to learn to be a breeder, how, why, when, where etc The previous posts contain some great info and as a matter of fact we have just passed one of the most devastating times of year for dogs, the dreaded Christmas puppy. In closing I will say this. I am not in the business of trying to put people off. If people choose to breed, they can do so. But it is a privilege, not a right to undertake. The responsibility is huge and if done properly the monetary gains are slim to none.
*wet head, Yes, I mean the casual backyard breeder, the one who knows just enough to be dangerous. The one who does it because he thinks he can make a few bucks and sell to a pet shop, the one who should not have a dog let alone breed them.
*Thanks for all the feedback; some good advice. I'm going to do the legwork so any decision is an informed one. Dan, your list will be very useful. I'd like to hear your friend's story. Don't know how this will end up, but I'm really pleased to get a dog back in the house.Brought her home last night, all big feet and bright eyes and roly-poly uncoordination. There is just something irresistible about babies. So far, so good; she seems to have the toilet thing sorted out, she is quite affectionate and attentive and she comes to her name (we borrowed your moniker Luka, Kinkell's Lodestar is just too big a mouthfull).
*A Breeder I know once put it well: "If you breed dogs and don't lose money at it, then you are cutting some important corners somewhere and harm will be done". The only way to breed dogs and not lose money is to do the puppy mill thing, and we all are in agreement as to what a profound evil they are.
*i The only way to breed dogs and not lose money is to do the puppy mill thing, and we all are in agreement as to what a profound evil they are. That's not entirely true. There are some "larger" scale breeders who provide proper care and housing for their dogs, do the proper research, earn titles on their breeding stock and breed good quality dogs. The puppy mills just generate dogs, of any breed, usually under inhumane conditions.To the original question, what will be your purpose in breeding? Are you trying to improve the breed or just make some money? Do you know how to pick out a dog that will complement your dog's strong and weak points? Do you know how to do temperment testing? What kind of puppy contract will you have? Are you prepared to show your dogs to get titles on them? If you don't, then you are only breeding to "pet" people. If you end up with some high drive, high energy puppies, they don't make very good pets for the average person, especially if you are breeding from working line dogs, which it sounds like these might be.Are you prepared to do all the necessary medical screening on your dogs before you breed? Do the parents have their certifications? Does the breeder you are getting your dogs from track the offspring to make sure medical problems don't show up -- two individual dogs may not show any medical problems, but they could both be carriers of genetic defects. You say you will keep the puppies if you don't find good homes for them, but are you really prepared to do that. And, if you do sell them all, and one or more of them end up in a shelter, will you be prepared to take the dog back? If any of your puppies are surbsequently bred, are you prepared to rescue the resulting puppies if any of them end up in shelters?I work some in dog rescue and there are so many dogs out there needing good homes, why add more dogs to this? Even if your pups all get good homes, you are taking away a good home from some other dog that might be in desperate need of one.
*His Majesty:
*You snuck over here and took a picture of Rufus while I wasn't looking, didn't you ?Uh oh, I shoodna asked for that pic. Now I'm thinking that Rufus would like a brother. Is Caruso one that can be left to run like Rufus ? My criteria for a dog... 1) Gotta be able to let them run, without worrying if they are going to chase cars, or if they will go on a walkabout, and not find their way back home, etc. 2) Fierce looking and sounding when someone comes on or near the property, but wouldn't hurt a flea. 3) Eats no more than Rufus does. 4) Will not fight with Rufus, or chase the cats.I have GOT to find some clippers for Rufus. Hey, I gots a question for you, should I clip him twice a year, or just once ? I've been at him several times now with the scissors, and although it has made a difference, it hasn't made that much, because I let him get pretty well matted before I started, and it is very difficult to cut with the scissors and not end up cutting him as well.
*Hello Ann.All valid questions. I am not looking at the idea as a money generator, and I don't think I buy into the idea of "improving the breed". I have a couple years training in animal husbandry albeit on a different species, but I do understand something about health, nutrition, immunology, genetics, hygiene, etc.. I have many years of experience with dogs, although it has been on a one at a time basis for the last 30 years. I have a first rate vet as a personal friend, five acres of wooded rural land in an area that will not be developed more densely and my shop is at home so I am as well most of the time. Probably the most important contributor is that we don't and haven't had kids (medical reasons) so we are probably substituting.I am much less interested in show than I am in field (to my view, utility has it all over beauty) and do have some connections in that area. The breeder does track his animals, has a very good reputation and his dogs move out very quickly. It was pure luck that we happened on a situation where the dog was available; second thoughts by a buyer due to a new baby caused cancellation just two hours before we arrived, wife commited a half hour before the buyer called back to say they would follow through. We were able to see and interact with both parents as well as siblings of the parents. Previous mistakes have taught me something about dog selection although I have miles to go if I am going to undertake this. I'm not sure that it would be taking homes away because once you start dealing with working dogs, even on a sporting basis, breeds become much less interchangeable.All that being said, this is still miles from a done deal and requires much more research and consideration. The points raised by everyone are very helpful in that they force me to define answers and help crystalize my thinking. If we do breed, it will be slowly and carefully, and for the love of the dogs rather than the money. I used the phrase "my best friend" at the beginning of the thread in the literal rather than the figurative sense.
*Why not volunteer for a dog rescue group? We got our last lab from a lab rescue group, and he has been the best pet we've ever had. The volunteer always has the option of keeping the pet, so after volunteering for a year, he got the pick of the litter so to speak.Why clutter up the world with more puppies?Labs, by the way, are often sent back to shelters by people who they are cute, but can't stand them when they get 9 months old and strong as a horse. The magically turn into the worlds greatest dog at age 3 but until then, are pycho maniacs from hell.
*I don't think this guy would do for you, Luka, since i found him running loose, but he'd be pretty good bear bait at 25 pounds...He was well-matted when i got him, so bad the clippers wouldn't go through the hair.Sticks and dirt are really hard on the blades anyway. You might try smaller scissors to keep from nicking him; Caruso had mats so tight only manicure scissors could get between the skin and hair. I helped my neighbor with a cat she found that had matting all over itself, like a shell. Four hours to liberate it...boy, did it do a lot of stretching!
*You're probably right. That's why I have Rufus. He ran loose, was caught by the pound, and I showed up the day that they were going to kill him. (Euthanize, put down, I don't care what you call it, it's killing the dog.)He apparently learned his lesson from running the first time. He has stayed put here on the property since day one. He will wander down the road about a quarter mile, but that's it. He always comes back. Amazed me really, that he had obviously run away before, and he didn't know me from a hole in the wall, yet he has never run away. I kept him on a line the first day and night. The next day I let him off all day, but put him back on at night. The next day I let him off, and then halfway through the day, I went to town without thinking, and left him free. He was here, jumping up and down, waiting for me when I got home. He's been on the line only a couple times since, and that was for following that other dog that was here for a while, and chasing cars. He has never chased a car on his own, before, or since that other dog.I think I have spent at least 4 hours so far already, on him, and I don't think I'm halfway done. If I'd clipped him at the beginning of the summer last summer, (even having to use scissors), the job would not be anything like as tough as it is now. Live and learn. It has already turned warmer here, and I get the feeling that it will not be below 25 for more than a day or two again for the rest of the winter. So, I will keep at his coat. Eventualy he'll be clean cut again, and I can give him a bath. I'll be getting out the pinking scissors now, and going after the few that are the worst. Thanks for the tip.
*Walked into Petco this afternoon cause nutro maxx was on sale and came face to face with a herd of rescued greyhounds. Beautifull animals they are! There was about 12 of them, all former racers.The brindle ones were especially handsome and every one of the was as sweet as can be. It was a local rescue group and they had one dog that was up for adoption. If I had forty acres or so.... Had a pocketful of bicuits from the morning walk so every body was my friend! Dogs are great therapy. I cant understand why some people dont love em.Mr. T Happiness is a cold wet nose!!
*You don't need forty acres. They will get up and run like the dickens once or twce a day. The rest of the day they are just couch potatoes.(You learn some surprising things on a gardening forum.)
*I hope you don't mind but I took the liberty of increasing the brightness and lowering the contrast so that he looks less like the Beast of Bodmin Moor! --- doesn't look too happy about being woken up though!
*Couldn't you have waited until you brought home a him ?LOLNo problem. I'm borrowing the moniker my own self.b : )
*i He apparently learned his lesson from running the first time. He has stayed put here on the property since day one. He will wander down the road about a quarter mile, but that's it. He always comes back. Luka, he knew a good thing when he saw it. My male dog is the same. He was originally found as a stray, but he never strays far from me.
*One thing you could consider is going part way with a real and responsible breeder. I have a friend who is a long time lab breeder who specializes in dogs for search and rescue, police, and as guide dogs so she is very interested in temperment. She does the whole AKC show thing as well. Sometimes she is part owner of dogs and shows them, but the dog lives full time with the other owner. She often does the mating and whelping thing since she is an expert and has the facilities. That sort of thing gets you part way, helps the breeder out by giving really good homes and lives to some of the best dogs, and still keeps them available for breeding. The other owner wins because they get to do some of the dog thing without the wholesale investment in time and training. She does this because she loves it - loves showing, loves training, loves the animals. She doesn't make any money at it.My sister used have a Newfoundland kennel for years, but she didn't make money at it either. She won a lot ribbons and always won the obediance trials. Took a huge investment in time. She always let each of her animals have some housepet time. both for training and because it is kinder to kennel animals. Eventually, my BIL got a parasite infection in his eye from the dogs and lost the vision in that eye. No more dogs. Now she breeds horses.So if you are set on that new line, there are more options than becoming a breeder yourself.Mary
*i Now she breeds horses. Another money losing proposition!
*And this time DH gets hoof-and-mouth disease.b : )
*lol, I don't think he helps with the horses like he did with the dogs. He's always had hoof and mouth disease, or is that foot in mouth disease?Yes, she doesn't do it for money, she loves horses even more than dogs.Mary
*Luka, I figure as long as we don't tell her it's a male name, she'll never know the difference.Tesaje, thats a very good thought. We are really interested in getting the Irish strain into the house, but we could just use the male at stud in exchange for litter pick. That would bring the workload down to a much more manageable level, and allow us to increase the dog family incrementally while gaining experience. An experienced and reputable breeder would be able to get the dogs placed well and teach us a thing or two about the business along the way. It would also mean that there would be no infrastructure to dismantle or loose ends to deal with if we decided not to get into it.
*I can't get one of Mary's phrases out of my mind:i helps the breeder out by giving really good homes and lives to some of the best dogsHow do the not-so-best dogs spend their days? Chain link and concrete...
*Sometimes, life in a kennel means concrete and chainlink fencing with some exercise times and that's all. Nothing like living with a family who lets the dog be part of it. There are breeders and showers who don't treat their dogs with much love at all.Mary
*Dogs are naturally family orientated, they do best as part of the family. If a dog is going to spend it's life in a kennel why bother having one. They all offer so much yet many of them get nothing in return. Too many people put animals in the same class as toys, they deserve better. A shelter I go to interviews the prospective dog owner before they give the animal out for adoption, I feel this is a must do. The same should apply to people wanting to have children.
*i The same should apply to people wanting to have children. Ain't that the truth! The rescue group I work with does home checks on prospective adopters, and they have to sign a contract agreeing to never tie the dog outside and to not keep the dog kenneled all the time. It is unfortunate that many large breed/show kennels do keep their dogs kenneled. Also, many working dogs, such as military dogs, are kept kenneled. It's sad, but their basic needs are met (except for the puppy mills) and they do get daily training and human contact in that way. Not all dogs can live the ideal dog life, just like not all kids can have the ideal childhood.
*Dick, this is his returned email and the bills are huge. I know you have been eagerly awaiting updates on Sabine and her brood, but I have been with the puppies doing my level best to salvage something out of what has been a disaster.We have 4 puppies left, and we have had to fight like demons to have these 4. Of the 9 live puppies (out of 13 delivered) 5 developed secondary infections (i.e. pneumonia) from the kennel cough they contracted from their mother. These 5 have passed to the bridge despite exhaustive efforts. The 4 remaining have been well for 4 days now, and apart from one that still has what I hope is just a residual cough are now thriving. From day 1 this litter has been on antibiotics, Clavulox (Amoxycillin with Clavulinic Acid). This involved using very small doses, 0.1 ml, having to be made up individually and dosed twice a day. When it was apparent that Clavulox was not arresting the infection a second antibiotic was introduced, Flagyl (Metronidazole). Now Flagyl only comes in 200 mg tablets that are the smallest. The puppies were to have 20mgs each twice a day. But that's what was prescribed so that's what we did. The puppies were also prescribed Ventolin (Salbutamol), a bronchodilator, to try and open their lungs. This has to be given via a nebuliser with a tiny pediatric mask held over the face of each puppy. They were living in a "humidicrib" which was a crate covered over with a sheet with a steam vaporizer running to aid in breaking down mucous. At 2 weeks of age the first of the puppies to get critically ill went downhill badly. He went into such bad respiratory distress, that he was coughing blood, unable to breathe and not eating, other than by tube feeding. This little fella, with all his mated were shipped back off to the vet for review. He died as the vet was examining him. One of his brothers was at this time heavily consolidated in the lungs so he was kept at the vet, on oxygen with a tiny little IV in his little leg. He passed to the bridge hours later. Post Mortem and culture of lung tissue of the first puppy showed we were battling E. COli, Klebsiella, Bordatella and Parainfluenza. That's 3 bacteria and 1 virus, not a very easy battle to win. Normal Kennel cough consists of just Bordatella and Parainfluenza. Sensitivity showed that these bugs were sensitive to Clavulox but not Flagyl so that one was ceased while the Clavulox was increased to 3 times daily A mucolytic, Bisolvon, was added to the Rx at this time. 1/10th of a tablet to each puppy twice a day. At 2 weeks and 3 days, a third puppy went downhill. He was breathing in a very labored way, was constipated from metabolic stasis and dehydrated. It was at this point we had to start with giving fluids subcutaneous (under the skin). So that was 10 mls of sterile Hartmanns solution injected into 4 sites (2.5 mls each site) to each puppy, whenever dehydration was apparent. The third puppy regressed further and we made the decision to have him euthanised as his suffering was too hard to bear. 2 more puppies took turns for the worse. Further results from cultures showed that some of the bugs were sensitive to Gentamycin so the puppies were commenced on Gentamax. Another injection, 0.1 ml, intramuscularly. Not easy on puppies that are sick and have very little musculature. So we now had 6 puppies on Ventolin, Gentamax, Clavulox & Bilsolvon. They were now having fluids intraperitoneumly (straight into the stomach cavity) and were still in the mist tent and having Ventolin. Those that could came out for a feed off Sabine and those that couldn't were bottled or tubed. Despite this the 2 ill puppies passed on as well. Both were euthanised. So we were now down to the 4 we have today, little Bianca and her 3 brothers, Timmy, Mac and Midget as they have been dubbed. These 4 have been "well" for 4 days now and are being weaned off medication. They are eating well, have been started on their BARF diets and are running around playing, spending time in the sun. Despite their illness they are still big puppies for their age and weigh in at about 2.2 kgs each at 4 weeks. They have even been started with Clicker Training. So although this account is very clinical in nature it is necessary I feel, for people who may want to breed to get an idea of what time, love, effort and money have to go into breeding at different times. This is one of the bad times. There can be others. This all started with simple Kennel Cough. A fairly innocuous, easily treatable disease in an adult dog but lethal to puppies, they can go down in hours. During this period we had temperatures in Sydney of over 40 Celsius. We had puppies running temperatures that needed to be cooled but at the same time kept warm. Catch 22! The secondary infection was virtually unavoidable as the bug E.Coli is a normal flora (resident) of the bowel. Mother cleans babies bums to make them poo and then licks their faces. E. Coli will live in a rectum and cause no problems but once in a respiratory tract.......well. Klebsiella is an opportunistic organism that comes to the fore in weakened immune states. It causes pneumonia. These puppies certainly fit this bill. So all in all it has been a terrible 3 weeks. Many a tear has been shed and we have endured much suffering. But I still consider to have won this "war" even though many battles were lost. We still have 4 very beautiful, hopefully now healthy and certainly stronger puppies. Sabine has settled. She didn't want anything to do with the sick babies. This is nature; it's not to be judged badly… A little education goes a long way in this world. I hope I have provided some.
*Dan, thanks for the post. Although I recognize the situation can be as bad as this and worse, its not enough to remove the idea from consideration. The input has been very helpful. It occurs to me that my best course is to go slowly. First we'll see what kind of a dog Luka is, and investigate the field trial scene here a little further. If I like it, I might even try running her. I'll watch the Irish strain over the next eight months or so and see what I think. If I like it, I'll get one and we'll go from there. Worst case is we end up with one dog, and that resolves the original problem we set out to address.Thanks for the comments everyone.
*Just to flesh out the bones:
*I just finished reading this thread and am pleased to see so many who obviously care a great deal about animals.2 weeks ago myself and my wife got 2 10 month old dogs from the pound. They were only suposed to be there for 7 days and had been in for 3 weeks. they were the last of a litter of 4 that was dumped and were on borrowed time. We wanted the male, but no way could we leave his sister alone................so took her home too.I spent two days on the phone and placed an ad to get her a home. Both of them were bred as pig dogs. She had a very 'intense' nature and wanted to run. Despite her being obviously very intelligent we knew she could never be trusted with our free ranging chickens and geese. hence the efforts in finding her somewhere to live. She went to a nice young guy who had other dogs who were clearly well cared for.The male is the softest,nicest dog I have ever met. He gets told something a few times and gets it. no fuss or dramas. totally ignores the birds and the cats. amazing.My wife has always been very definite about the kind of dog she i didn'twant........"we are NOT getting a muscle dog" and " there is NO WAY we are getting a muscle dog"..............she loves him to bits!!His make up ( as far as we can tell ) is staffy/huntaway/lab/bull mastiff/english bull terrier. there are probaly a few other combos in there too. I spent about $250 in two days on these two,plus a LOT of running around. But, I figgure, for me at worst it is an inconvenience, for them it's their lives.
*AJinNZ,I have no personal experience, but I've always heard that if a dog should ever stumble into the experience of breaking and eating a fresh egg, it will not forget and will eat lots more if it gets a chance.Rich Beckman
*This may be true Rich, I know my friends who BARF diet their boxers love both raw and scrambled eggs. It promotes great health benefits for their skin as well as a shinny coat. I think if left unattended in the coop, their may be problems.
*i for me at worst it is an inconvenience, for them it's their livesThat's about the best i've ever heard it put into perspective.
*Splinterthanks. :)Our chickens lay in nesting boxes about 3 to 4 feet off the ground. We started training the dog to sit while we feed them etc. He is doing incredibly well with this......wont move even when one runs right past him. In order to get the eggs he would also have to get past the geese, not an easy task.We feed him eggs in one form or another on occaision, and I have no doubt that he would eat any he found. our set up though makes it pretty difficult. Thanks for the warning though.
*Dave,Exactly, the explainations of Companion dogs. it is actually a very difficult title for a dog to hold. In obediance trials, it represents the "all around" top of accomplishments. Impressive to say the least.Some indivuals use the term companion dog to mean it is a good natured dog, who for either structural conformation reasons, or temperment, will not be a candidate for showing in the ring.We have had Huskies for 28 years, and have shown a couple of them. At any rate, we have gotten to know a number of breeders, and not a single one of them thinks of their kennel (breeding business) as a means to produce a bottom line of positive cash flow. In fact, when these people finish feeding with quality food, taking care of vet bills, etc, they often just break even. You are correct in that it is a hobbie, and the proceeds just help to maintain it as such.If you meet a breeder who is claiming to be making a sizeable profit, you are dealing with one of two types of people. First, he/she could be lying (thinking he should be making a profit) or secondly, a person who has "cut" corners to the point where they place the animals welfare at risk.Good breeders plan litters well in advance, trying to maximize on the resultant offspring's good qualities, not just lets have a litter because the female is in estrus. They are truely very special people with their hearts in the right place.Sorry for the long-winded reply, it just touched a nerve.
*And then theres the companion dog in Germany that they are still trying to find a placing for. They are actualy in court asking that the dogs prior history not have to be divulged in making the next placement because it might tend to predjudice the next prospective owner.Seems the dog has pulled, and even pushed several previous owners to their deaths.I wish I could remember where I read that...
*You have to wonder what the owners did to deserve it in the dogs mind.
*Don't know why I have been avoiding a reply to this thread but here goes . 2 years ago my girlfriend and I were looking for a dog. We did alot of research and soulsearch and decided we wanted a Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever.We then proceeded to visit some breeders and narrowed down the search to a male from a line we liked. To make this part of the long story short we had some relationship bumps and off she goes to Quebec to see her family. We levelled off the bumps and I get a call from her asking if I would like a room mate. The new roomy is a 3 1/2 yr. old purebreed golden retriever. ( Tatoo (her name) / Female )I say sure lets do it ! Tatoo arrives in Prospect Nova Scotia = North Atlantic in Febuary and jumps in the ocean ! Way cool we think ! Time goes by and she begins to slow down and get a bit heavy. June 19 she drops 11 puppies ! We do some research and find that she has been flirting with this purebreed Black lab in Quebec. This is obviously not what we had planned ! Well what do we do now ? We turn into newbie dog breeders of course ! Build the whelping box , build an outside puppy kennel . Shovel incredible amounts of poop on a daily basis , carry the poopies in and out every day. (Except the rainy ones which you can't leave them out in ( Very Stinky)) Hire a puppy sitter ! Build a barrier fence in the "Burb" to get them back and forth to the vet ( All 10 pups (We lost one and all the kids in the neighborhood were at the funeral) + the mom ! The positive sides of this story are : One of the most incrdible summers I have ever spent! The neighborhood kids brought up these pups till the age of 10 wks ! WOW! Tres Cool interactive ! We built our buisness plan based on : 1) Good homes ( Was not a problem but took alot of time ) 2) Price = Divide the cost of the best care by the amount of pups = cost of pups ( Best care = puppy sitter , top food , shots & check ups , accomodation and an incredible amount of my time ) Dough ! We sold these pups for $ 125 CDN to mostly close friends. Will post the end of the story later. Gotta do some stuff ! Some pics
*Wit all the references to dog poop I have got to get in a plug for my favorite dog food.Nutro MaxLess Poop!!! No shit(pun intended)And it goes away in a few weeksLess or no shoveling depending on how much room dogsget for pooping.Good food also, keeps em healthy and energetic.Love it!!!!Mr T
*Use that brand one too, for the same reasons. Small stools, great coats, healthy dogs!Stan, Novy7, thanks for pointing out the good parts.
*I used to use it but switched mine to Proplan. Their coats got softer and shinier and still less poop. Then I switched them to an all natural high quality low grain food because one of mine had a chronic yeast infection in her ear. I think I have finally defeated that, but I noticed their coats aren't quite as nice as on the ProPlan. What to do, what to do?Mary
*I like the cheapo stuff the best. It tastes better. Especialy when you put hot water on it and make gravy with it. MmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmWait a minute. You guys are talking about feeding the dogs aren't you ???Never mind.
*When I was a kid, on a dare, but also because I got curious whether what we fed to our beloved pets was any good, I actully ate a piece of dried dog food. I was surprised that it didn't taste all that awful. So Luka, chomp away if you want..Mary
*I've been taking my dogs to a veggie diet for two reasons, the one being i don't want to support the meat industry, and the other bec the meat supply for humans is so tainted that i don't like to even think what makes its way into the dog food. The cattle industry has effectively stonewalled BSE testing, so there's somthing to think about when you pop a kibble in your mouth.I have one old dog who had a hard time with the hard stools produced with the concentrated food, who does his business much more easily on the veggie diet.I do enjoy horse pellets however. Just take a few of those in your pocket when going off on a hike...
*It probably doesn't mean much to you but any of today's b top flight dog foods are produced with human grade meat, poultry, and fish.
*Oh good, that means they only have to cope with BSE, salmonella and mercury poisoning.
*I've always been curious about concerns about insect parts, bacteria, etc. in dog food. Nothing my dogs love better than a squirrel poop appetizer, followed by a nice chew on a rat or bird carcass they dragged out of hiding, topped off with a long drink from a mudhole. I don't think cooked larvae would phase 'em much.
*i ...the meat supply for humans is so tainted that I don't like to even think what makes its way into the dog food. SplintsYou seem far to intelligent to assume that the veggies you buy, out of your growing control and season in Montana are void of byproducts. I shop at a local health store, when the weather prohibits me from growing my own veggies, that touts fresh organic foods and produce which undoubtedly taste fantastic compared to the regular grocery store! The shop owners take great pride in providing the best products available but can realistically only do so much. I find it difficult to believe that the money makers haven't capitalized on and tainted the waters of this trend. What do you do to assure that what's in your cart or consume is completely untainted?
*Splinter, now I'm curious. How do you get a balanced healthy diet for a dog whilst eliminating meat? Dont they have a need for it due to their make up? I mean they were designed for a diet that featured mostly meat with some vegetable matter................werent they? I understand for example that you cant feed cats on dog food indefinitely cos they need a certain amino they cant make themselves. they get it from prey, or, cat food. dogs dont have that problem. I therefore dont get upset when ours catch and eat mice. It seems to be very good for them ( they are very healthy ) and it keeps the mice out of the house. If buying meat that could be ( and probably is ) 'contaminated' with hormones,antibiotics and so on is a concern, what about getting some wild stuff off a hunter? it would be as good as it gets, the animal has lived free and unrestrained. I know hunting is against your principles, but it may be a way of getting around part of the "problem" as far as the pooches are concerned.
*Your not a true dog lover if you have not ate at least one dog bicuit!!!I told my 8 yr. old this and he said that I was disgusting.Not the first time, wont be the last.T
*i What do you do to assure that what's in your cart or consume is completely untainted? To quote Helen Keller: "Security is mostly an illusion." I can't be sure everything in my cart is completely safe, but the species barrier will hold a lot longer with something plant-based as opposed to another mammal. For this reason, i no longer use manure on my garden either. I'm saving my chits for over-doing wine and chocolate. The money makers ARE picking up on the fact there is money to be made from people who can afford--aye, there's the rub--"organic" food. Only their strategy wasn't to make [more expensive] clean food, just label it that way. Lisa and Dan:I looked up an interesting article i read a while ago on animal food. I thought the part about rendered meat and the origin of "human-grade" fat were esp. interesting.AJ: Dogs don't need meat and metabolize rice quite effectively, not to mention second-hand cat food. (Talk about getting your money's worth!)As to whether it's their "natural" diet...what's natural about kibble? A high-fat diet may give a nice coat, but it isn't good for most non-working dogs. A plant-based diet leads to bigger poops, for sure, but i haven't read anything to suggest small poops aren't just for people's convenience, not necessarily optimal for the dog. Cats need taurine, only available in flesh sources. Some people feed a basically veg diet to their cats and supplement it with a teaspon of tuna every day with no adverse affects. I don't know about NZ, but i have to routinely worm my animals who hunt rodents or they have tapeworm "issues". As to wild meat, uncooked it has its own set of parasites that can infect them and me handling it. I also found out they consistently regurgitate wild meat and have to eat it again--not on my carpet, ya mongrel!
*Haahaa. We dont have a worm problem with the cats. they get treated for it when their appetite seems to be more excessive than usual, but other than that, nothing. They dont spew up their food either, wild or not. Got home a few weeks ago to find the back wheels of a pretty big rabbit in the bathroom..........plus one very sleepy cat. no spewing though. One thing I have noticed and dont understand. WHY does a cat who starts to heave on the lino move onto the i carpetfor the actual event????Dogs have very frugal habits with food. A big barf, a bemused expression, then...............oooh, look, someone left all this food lying around. YUK! grubby buggers.Do you find that the vege diet produces large volumes of gas in a dog?
*i Dogs don't need meat I understand your concerns, albeit sometimes a little overboard and fueled by some questionable articles, but I have to disagree with ya on this one Splints. As stated above, my friends BARF(bones and raw food)for the simple reason that they believe they can provide a better alternative than the industry. I too will BARF my new pup and believe that the lack of meat for an active 75lbs. carnivore is going to pose more health issues than not.You're interesting article on pet foods is surely not trying to blanket all available products. The mass produced labels mentioned in the beginning of the article are extremely questionable to say the least and should be avoided by anyone concerned with their dogs long term health. I am not a dietician and can offer no b unbiased "scientific" (completely abused word) data to coincide with my unsubstantiated opinion. Dan
*"Dogs have very frugal habits with food. A big barf, a bemused expression, then...............oooh, look, someone left all this food lying around. YUK! grubby buggers. "LOL
*i Do you find that the vege diet produces large volumes of gas in a dog?They're actually more afraid of me.
*LOL, the clasic vegetarian system eh?
*OK, i've spent the last hour reading about the BARF diet, supposedly the same diet they would get in the wild. I'm wondering where's the blood, the guts, the hair? (I keep picturing Farly Mowat eating whole mice in "Never Cry Wolf".) Nothing other than anecdotal evidence to suggest its superiority, just as i have given for my mutts' diet. The advantage i participate in is not being part of the meat industry, an ethical choice to "do no harm". I also am not racially motivated to raise the best purebred blah-blah-blah bec i don't conceive of animals as property. But i guess we can agree on commercial food, eh? Overboard? Must be...i sure spend a lot of time swimming against the current!
*And just what is the attraction my dogs have for finding some yucky dead rodent and rolling in it? Then they expect to cuddle up to me? Bath time.Mary
*Mary, you are fortunate that all you have to deal with is dead rodents. In coastal BC, I've discovered that you really don't want to take your dog for a walk along the river during salmon spawning season when the river banks are littered with hundreds of rotting salmon carcasses. Ever smelled a fish rendering plant?
*The whelping bed & the disignated puppy sitter.
*Do your dogs roll in dead salmon? That would make them stink! Dogs do have a different attitude towards stinky smells.Mary
*My sister ( Future dog owner ) & neighbors granddaughter who visited for the summer. This little girl spent about 2-3 hours a day with the pups. Note the outdoor pen and the sunshade. Not exactly fine homebuilding but absolutley neccassary !
*Puppies & Mom
*Puppies Thanks to Luka for resizing these !
*i Must be...i sure spend a lot of time swimming against the current!Me too, and it never gets strenuous!i supposedly the same diet they would get in the wild. No smoke and mirrors here Splints, I think its pretty clear what a wild dog, or wolf for that matter, consumes to sustain existence.You don't believe that a large breed, very active dog needs the nutritional value of meat for a healthy balanced diet? Why do you suppose they don't fight over the nearest bush? Your "do no harm" philosophy/diet may well be the most harmful thing for your dog. I know you have good intentions!i I also am not racially motivated to raise the best purebred blah-blah-blah I agree that animals aren't property and treat them as such. I can only hope that you become racially motivated to raise the best dog you can, for they depend on and trust you.
*Mary, what I find so interesting about that habit is how proud of themselves they are once they are well annointed. I'd swear my old buddy used to be an inch taller when he was all perfumed up.Novy, after having the experience, would you do it again?
*I had to bathe two dogs last Monday after a walk in a cow pasture. Two to go...
*Isn't that the truth! Mine get this particular look - very deliberate and intentional as if they are doing something so great. Who says they think they are people - not.Mary
*Given the right cicumstances yes I would !
*AJnz......<<>>because they're cats.......do it without fail though, don't they ?
*Or, if they're on the bed, they move to your pillow. And they always finish JUST before you can grab them.
*Dan,i what a wild dog, or wolf for that matter, consumes to sustain existenceThis idea of feeding a dog "naturally" meets with some skepticism from this corner. My dogs' true nature would be more inclined to form a pack and run down a deer. I can't understand why folks frown on this. I tend not to just look at what is good for me and mine, but look at our place in the system, and consider they ARE domesticated animals. I find no justification for cruelly raising and killing large numbers of other animals we don't know very well in order for the ones we do know well to prosper. The BARF diet feeds chickens parts and such; there are few enterprises more filthy or cruel than commercial chicken/egg operations. It's kind of like the argument about electricity being a "clean fuel"--it's not to the people who live near the generating plant. As far as a working dog goes: I'm not sure, for the long run. My animals get exercise on ten acres of land, but the only "work" they do is guarding me. I hear the same thing from working people, that they need meat to work hard, but this makes no sense to me since i can work incredibly long hours and have become much healthier in the past ten years, while my sleep req's are minimal.i Why do you suppose they don't fight over the nearest bush?I swear i could commit grievous bodily harm for Godiva chocolate, but i doubt as a steady diet it would do me that much good. Actually, my dogs never scrapped for kibble. I could do free choice feeding (four dogs, 35-60 pounds), and not the cheap crap. Now i'm doing this new diet, they have to have separated bowls. The biggest problem has been to keep them from tipping the bowl over to spill it so it cools faster to a temp they can eat it. True, i don't have trouble with them raiding my snow peas.
*i and they always finish JUST before you can grab themWhen mine start they sound like a set of bellows full of porridge being worked with great enthusiasm. If I hear this in time I yell at it as loud as I can for it to "get the F%*K outside". works almost everytime. There are only a few seconds though from the sqooshy noises to the dreaded spewies.Try it.
*Splinter,i This idea of feeding a dog "naturally" meets with some skepticism from this corner. My dogs' true nature would be more inclined to form a pack and run down a deer. BARF - refers to the "ingredients" and outside of a little exercise I am not quite sure of the realistic relevance the hunt has on a dogs diet.i there are few enterprises more filthy or cruel than commercial chicken/egg operations. Come visit Chicago Splints, I'll show you filthy and cruel enterprise first hand. I also don't think I need to remind you of the ingredients in your Godiva chocolates. i I hear the same thing from working people, that they need meat to work hard, but this makes no sense to me since i can work incredibly long hours and have become much healthier in the past ten years, while my sleep req's are minimal. Working "hard" and "long" are two extremely different animals(no pun intended). Outside of a mental state, how are you healthier? Have you been cured of a persistent ailment, or do you feel better about yourself and more energetic. All things in life have varying degrees of risk, and sometimes doing nothing can be the worst of all. The bottom line is you are going to do for your animals as you see fit and if your believes dictate veggies, than veggies it is. I don't want to pose a barrage of hypothetical questions, but would you feed your dogs meat if you knew its long term absence was detrimental to their health? How instrumental of a roll do you play in your animal rights movement Splints? Is this something, outside of your diet, that you are actively involved with on a daily basis? I remember reading a story about a fishing trip sometime back that was a turning point for you. Do you have a problem sharing a table with someone that chooses meat as belly timber?
*Dan,My comment about chasing deer had to do with how to judge how "natural" a dog's diet really needs to be. For you, it includes feeding a diet somewhat similar to what they would get in the wild, though i doubt they'd be chasing down chix to eat their necks and wings, or have much luck bringing down a Hereford. More similar than veggies? Yes, but the question remains, how necessary is it to feed human-grade meat in light of the harm done elsewhere? What of the ethical ramifications of your choice? You ask, what if i DID see adverse effects...well, i would certainly take steps to correct it, but my first line of defense wouldn't be to clobber some other poor animal to do so. As stated, i see nil adverse effects. In fact, my eldest (retriever X) hasn't shown any pain in his hips for a long time, though he was on Rimadyl a couple years ago for a few weeks. Also, i was doing some reading yesterday on parasitic worms in flesh...had to go wash my hands after handling the mouse...Working hard AND long, Dan! My days of carrying full bundles of shingles up the ladder and taking 3/4" sheet goods to the saw instead of vice-versa are behind me, but i've never been outworked by another woman and have worn out a few men on the job. I used to have a lot of respiratory problems, but i had my first cold in three years last Nov---a little embarrassing. I used to snooze a lot more, but i function quite well on 6 hours sleep, can go forever on 5, if necessary. My role in AR movement? Hmm, i started to answer, but it sounded too like a eulogy; email me if that wasn't a rhetorical question. As to whether i belly up to a table with my carnivorous friends...lots of room for passion w/o moving into zealotry...
*
Anyone here been involved in this?
The background:
Sent my best friend (125 lb. chocolate Lab) to meet his maker about six weeeks ago. Looking for a new pup, found a breeder with some real nice yellow Lab stock. He had a sweet female of 8 weeks, wife got hooked, now we have a sweet female of 8 weeks.
Problem is, breeder has just introduced an Irish bloodline to his stock. It added ten pounds, an extra inch of forehead breadth, and a thicker coat to his stock - no pups available til the end of the year and I want one. I can commit to the dog now and get first choice on the litters of two females and one male from this line. The genetic lines of the pup we just got and the Irish influenced stock are separate so they can be bred safely.
The question:
I'm considering the possibility of breeding the dogs and selling pups. I am wondering about the economics of this game and would appreciate hearing about anyone's experience with it. I'm not looking for a gold mine; its more a case of really enjoying dogs and wondering if I can subsidize the hobby.
All advice appreciated!