Hi All,
I read breaktime for a long time, but have never actually posted. I’m a fairly skilled DIY’er, but could really use some advice on an upcoming summer project. I need to replace my front steps and walk. I am planning on concrete steps with a brick veneer. That I can handle (one of the fine home buildings had a great article on this in the last year or so). The thing that is perplexing me is the walk. What I would like to do is have a concrete walk (not brick veneered), and have a brick border along each side of the walk. What I can’t figure out is how to combine a footing for the brick border with the concrete poor for the main part of the sidewalk (i.e. how to get each side of the walk to “step down” 3 or so inches so I can lay the border bricks so they;ll be level with the top of the walk). I was planning on using full thickness bricks on both the walk and stairs.
Is there a way to have a monolithic pour of both the footer and the main walk? I thought about attaching a piece of wood along the top, inside of the form (kind of like when you pour a foundation with a “step” at the top for beams to sit on). Would that work, or would it float up and deform when the concrete pushes on it from below? Thanks. Any suggestions would be greatly apprciated.
Replies
that would do it, just like ya said. Because ya don't have to have a finished edge, the brick will hide it.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
For what you want it should be sufficient to just put down a sand (or rock dust) base (well tamped) after the concrete is in and set the brick on that.
We frame our walks to the dimensions of the concrete and then frame parallel to the sides for the brick footing. The footing frame is about 8 5/8" from finished concrete edge - that distance being a brick plus one joint. You could run brick the long dimension, i.e., the brick is only 4" wide, but it looks better the other way.
The footing frame is framed 3" below the level of finished concrete. Sometimes we rip the concrete frame to 3" so that the brick footing doesn't trap the concrete framing 2x4. Other times we use a small trowel to scrape out some of the footing that would otherwise trap said 2x4.
We reinforce the flatwork with 6"x6" welded wire in panels (the rolls are a PITA to keep flat) that extend under the concrete frame into the brick footing. Footings are also reinforced with 1/2" rebar. Some will surely think that's overkill, but half-a$$ing something just makes a full a$$ out of someone.
The mortar joint that runs parallel to the finished concrete should not be pointed to concave finish, but rather rounded over with a round over tool (like that for edging concrete) with the lower part against the concrete. This is because when the brick moves differently from the concrete, the crack will occur along this submerged straight line, much like control jointing in concrete.
How would you, having an existing 4' concrete walk, add a brick border, the bricks running horizontally to the walk, to add visual appeal and the about 20" more that those bricks will add to the width?
We were considering packed fine gravel and a sand base but may add a concrete base along the concrete walk if that would be best, since we are forming one for a 22" brick wall along the patio area that walk starts at.
Imagine two low walls along that patio, running South and North, for 24' each side of that 4' walk that starts in the middle of them and runs straight East for 45', down a slight slope, to a gate by the yard fence.
Would adding a concrete base to the brick framing by that concrete walk be worth it, for stability?
Here in southern Minnesota several years ago they installed brick borders along all the sidewalks at my plant (to absorb the salt runoff from the sidewalks in the winter). It's installed "soldier" fashion (perpendicular) over fine crushed rock and a little sand (well compacted). Holds up well until they dig up the area to fix the pipes or whatever. The guys who put it back after such a dig always do a half-assed job.
At least for the soils here, if you compact the base well you don't need a concrete base.
Thank you. Will do that. We have some caliche we will compact, then fine crushed gravel and a little sand for a base.
Seems like more work than a little concrete pour, since we are already doing one for the wall but then, we may have to also use something else under a concrete pour.
Ruby,
Around here in CA we have soils with high clay content. To do gravel and sand bases, you end up having to excavate just as deep, if not deeper, than for concrete. And the extra time involved with leveling and compacting makes the concrete the better choice. With rebar, it's also more stable. If possible, I would pin the walk to the new footing.
Regarding your low brick walls, unless they are retaining 22" of soil, 22" is too high. Around patios, you want a wall that's conducive to sitting on, like a bench. 15"-19" is a better range, depending on how tall you are. And the best walls for sitting are capped with a bullnose brick, so that the sharp corners of a conventional brick don't scrape the back of your knees.
Thanks! The concrete man was out today and he will pour for the brick along the walkway also.
Wishing we had thought of this beforehand, but that is the way things go sometimes.
Thanks too for the numbers on the size of the wall. We were wondering if five or six bricks high, with a sixth or seventh for cap. The higher ones were the 22", so we will go to the lower figure and will mention the bullnose bricks for the top ones.
I hope that the original poster is getting his information as well, didn't meant to highjack his post.
Will have to get some pictures and someone here can post them for me, for all to see. Many of the ideas on this house have been evolving along with what I was reading here. This site is a great help to those that don't know anything about building, more than those that do it all the time can imagine.
Hi Ryan
Thanks for the response. That was just what I was looking for. One question, how do you frame/form the flat work inside the form for the footer? Don't the stakes for the inner peice of form work leave holes in the concrete for the footer (or doesn't that really matter)?
Sorry this reply is so tardy, Wookie. You're right - the stakes for the flatwork innner form leave holes in the concrete footing for the brick. Ideally, you can pull the stakes while the concrete is still green and even fill the holes by "collapsing" the green concrete around the hole into the hole. This makes your footing grade a little lower, but the mortar makes up for it.
Sometimes pulling the stakes completely isn't feasible, so you can unscrew the stake from the form, and then move the stake around to break the concrete's bond on it, and then even rescrew the stake if at all necessary. Worst case, and it's still not bad, the stakes gets stuck forever. If it's a wood stake, several hammer blows will break it at grade; if it's a steel stake, it's lost and must be pounded down even with the footing grade.
It might be overkill but that would work, just make the brick shelf a little lower than needed. You could then bring the brick up to flush with a little sand or mortar.
That said I think all you need to do is lay an extra wide gravel base for the conrete walk and build up the gravel when you are ready for the brick.
I've seen some people mention gravel and sand, but there are better materials. Gravel is a mixture of rounded over stones and sand. If that's what you mean by gravel, it's not so good because it can't be compacted hard.
What you should use (and what you perhaps meant) is crushed stone, that is, a mixture of sharp stones of different sizes, up to a certain size. "Three-quarter inch and smaller" is a good size to work with. Some places call it "crusher run". The important point is that a mixture of sharp stones of various sizes will compact so solid it will feel as hard as concrete to walk on.
For a similar reason, instead of sand choose stone dust. Stone dust is like a very coarse sand (or a very fine stone), about 1/8" or so, again a mixture of sizes. It packs better than sand, and ants don't like it as they do sand.
So my suggestion would be this. A 4" or 5" compacted (5" or 6" as placed) base of 3/4" and smaller crushed stone, about 12" wider than the finished width of the walkway including the brick edging. Compact the base with a jumping jack type of tamper, not a plate tamper. Then form and pour about a 4" concrete slab the usual way. Then, place plastic paver edging the proper distance away, nailed into the stone base. Fill the area between the edging and the concrete with stone dust. Screed it to a flat surface, a uniform distance below the top of the concrete, allowing for about 25% compaction. But don't compact the stone dust. Lay the bricks in the uncompacted stone dust, then compact them into the dust with a vibrating plate type compactor. Sweep dry sand betweent the joints and compact again.