I have this brick on the side of my house and I’m supposed to attach a ledger to it for the shed roof. The handout from the building dept specifies (2) 3/8″x 3 1/2″ every 16″. The 3 1/2″ is what has to be in the brick so another 1 1/2″ has to be added on for the ledger thickness.
I tried putting the anchors into the mortar but it is to soft and it has voids in it. So I drilled the brick and sometimes I hit solid brick and other times I hit voids. The anchors don’t like the voids. They pullout to the near side of the void so I don’t get a full 3 1/2″ depth of anchorage. More like 1″ into the brick. I’m using a wedge anchor.
I looked for different anchors and either didn’t find them long enough or at one place they started talking about what the engineer specified. It was closing time and they wanted to go home. Thanks for the help.
Does anyone know the pattern of the holes in this brick. I looked around the house for one I could see from the side and couldn’t find one. I imagine these have several holes in them from top to bottom for a physical bond. But for the life of me I can figure it out. I’ve bee turning my ledger and bricks into swiss cheese trying to find where they are solid.
I know bricks are a regional thing so chances are you’ve never seen these where you are. I figured I’d ask.
Replies
Find the studs (not coincidentally every 16") and lag (or LedgerLok) into them through the brick or morter -- whatever is over the stud. The first one can be a PIA to find -- sometimes it's easier to find them from inside and transfer your measurements to the outside -- but once you find one, chances are you'll find them all at 16" increments from that one.
The good news is that the holes that miss will be covered by the ledger. ;-)
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
I like that idea. It means more work but you gotta do what you gotta do. I have one 10' ledger up. I doubled up the anchors at the ends and glued it with a consruction adhesive. All the anchors sinched up nicely but most of them aren't in 3 1/2".
I think the concrete anchors will act like pins. so the downward force will be picked up by them. But I was a little concerned about the ledger pulling away from the wall ( even a little bit)so the lags should take care of that.
I looked at the outside 0of the wall and there isn't any clue where the studs are but there is a kitchen window. On the wall beside the kitchen window is a receptical. Stud? I'll transfer it outside and see.
But I was a little concerned about the ledger pulling away from the wall ( even a little bit)so the lags should take care of that.
The important point here is that brick veneer is not structural - you can't really attach anything to it. The framing of the house is the structure, and you need to attach to that.
IMHO, the best option would be to locate the studs and bolt through them, rather than lag screw to them. However, without knowing more about what you are doing and the actual loads, it's impossible to say whether lag screws would have enough strength or not.
Whichever way you go, the hole in the brick should be large enough to not contact the fastener. Otherwise, as the brick expands and contracts with temperature and weather, the differential between the brick rate and the framing rate can cause damage to one or both.
Are you sure the brick isn't structual? I buryied my masonry bit ( 4" ) in it. In the garage the brick is the inside wall. There's no wood framing at all. So I'm not sure if it would be considered a brick veneer.
Are you sure the brick isn't structual?
We are all assuming you have brick veneer, based on your comment that there is wood framing behind it.
If you have a single wythe of brick with wood framing behind, it is not structural. If you have a wythe of brick and a wythe of concrete block, then the inner wythe (i.e. the concrete block) is structural. If that is the case, you could drill into the concrete block and use epoxy fasteners to secure the ledger.
My point is that if you just attach to the outer layer (wythe) of brick, either the fasteners will pull out, or they won't. If they don't, they may pull the brick off the structure behind it. If they do, your ledger will fall down.
However, this all assumes that the load is sufficient to exert this kind of stress. It's possible you would get away with just bolting to the veneer brick.
But I wouldn't do that on my own home (and I didn't - I through bolted to the framing when I replaced the ledger on my porch roof).
BTW, I am an engineer and am relatively familiar with structural issues, particularly as they relate to brick veneer homes over wood frame, because that is what I own. However, I am NOT a structural engineer, and would highly recommend hiring a structural engineer to advise you. You will likely pay $300 to $500, but you won't destroy your house if you follow the engineer's advice (and if you do, the engineer will be liable - it would be his fault, if you follow his advice).
You have brick over wood framing. How thick is your veneer? How do you account for the walls in my garage being the sole support for the ceiling/roof? I'd like to hear your answer to those two questions.
I didn't make the comment that there was wood framing behind the Brick. Someone else brought that up originally. There is wood framing in back of the brick. But there would be wood framing in back of a brick and block wall also.
My original question was where the holes in the brick were so I could hit them with my anchors. I've drilled about 20 holes in this brick 3 1/2- 4" deep and haven't hit wood yet.
Edited 11/2/2007 6:56 pm ET by popawheelie
You have brick over wood framing. How thick is your veneer? How do you account for the walls in my garage being the sole support for the ceiling/roof?
I didn't make the comment that there was wood framing behind the Brick. Someone else brought that up originally. There is wood framing in back of the brick. But there would be wood framing in back of a brick and block wall also.
My original question was where the holes in the brick were so I could hit them with my anchors. I've drilled about 20 holes in this brick 3 1/2- 4" deep and haven't hit wood yet.
Brick veneer is just a single wythe of brick - so 4" deep is about right, depending on the particular brick. Everything you have posted so far supports the brick veneer theory. If you can drill 12" deep and still be hitting masonry, then you may have a structural brick wall
The difference between a "brick wall" and "brick veneer" is that the brick wall has TWO wythes of brick, with structural connections between them. To add further confusion, there is "face brick" or "veneer brick" which is typically 1/2" thick brick "faces" sold primarily for interior decorative use.
Garages have to meet fire code, and are often a single wythe of brick over a block wall. The block wall is structural, the brick is not. The rest of the house is often brick veneer over wood framing. Even when houses are build with two wythes of brick or brick over block, they don't have structural wood framing inside. In older homes, the plaster would be applied directly to the block or brick. In newer homes, 2x2 firring strips are typically applied, then drywall over that.
You need to get a PE to look at it and give proper advice. I can't tell you how many homes I have inspected where the HO "saved a few bucks" attaching a deck to the brick and either pulled the brick veneer away from the house or damaged the foundation. Figure $5K to $10K in repairs either way. The $500 to a PE is money well spent, and your inspector may well require a PEs stamp on your drawings anyway.
To add further confusion, there is "face brick" or "veneer brick" which is typically 1/2" thick brick "faces" sold primarily for interior decorative use.
Well, really, "face" brick means that it is cored, and struck "neat" for the exterior appearance of the brick units. "We" generally specify a "face" brick for brick veneers, as they look better than structural brick, which is generally solid, and rough struck (if not as much as a "clinker").
Now, "veneer brick" comes in all sorts of sizes anymore, and may not be "brick," but be lightweight concrete.
What OP out to look for is that there ought to be a 1" airspace behind the brick veneer on his house. Now, at his ledger height,there could be solid grout, or just spilled mortar in the airspace, giving a false "reading" of "solid" (OP ought to look for weep holes, to see if 'we' are near the bottom course of the work).
Or, real long shot (but I've seen it), the brick course drilled through is in the brick ledge of the foundation. And, as a point of order, that's about the only time I'd run fasteners through veneer masonry for structural purposes. Otherwise, you set uo a potential where you are compressing the structural "sandwitch" across that airspec behind the veneer. But, I'm cynical that way (or have found masonry veneer treated like structural only to find it's on a rusty angle iron cantilevered off the foundation).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Well, really, "face" brick means that it is cored, and struck "neat" for the exterior appearance of the brick units. "We" generally specify a "face" brick for brick veneers, as they look better than structural brick, which is generally solid, and rough struck (if not as much as a "clinker").
Yes, "face" brick isn't really the right term, but it's used colliquially here - one of those regional quirks.
And, as a point of order, that's about the only time I'd run fasteners through veneer masonry for structural purposes. Otherwise, you set uo a potential where you are compressing the structural "sandwitch" across that airspec behind the veneer.
That's one reason I advised against the lag screws - people generally want to put in the lag screws "blind", without installing a spacer in the air space to avoid compressing that air space.
What I do is locate the studs, then remove one brick at each stud location and one in between each stud location. I drill the stud for a through bolt, and install the bolt, washer and nut on the inside side of the stud. I then cut a hole on the interior wall and install a 2x4 between the studs for the through bolt that is located between the studs. I then sleeve the bolt on the outside with vinyl tubing and foam the gap around the edges of the hole left from removing the brick, which makes a form. I then fill the brick space cavity with concrete, flush to the brick surface. Alternatively, you could use a spacer of dry wood (i.e. not construction lumber, which will shrink) or mdf or other essentially uncompressable material. The ledger can then be installed over the through bolt, and the spacer will keep it from compressing the air space.
Of course, to meet code either pressure treated wood is required for the ledger or a moisture impervious membrane is required. In areas I know will not get wet, I use a piece of EPDM or 30lb roofing felt as a membrane, but use PT wood if there is any realistic chance of moisture.
This approach will meet code requirements, provided the bolts are spaced close enough together (typically 8" O.C. on a staggered pattern for a roof or other light load).
That leaves only the condensation issue to deal with. Got any good ideas on that one? I've tried various solutions, but don't really like any of them so far. The best seems to be to paint the bolt ends and nuts with anti-rust primer, then use foam and pipe caps to insulate them. Messy, but at least it keeps the bolts from disintegrating in a few years.
With the new PT lumber, maybe I'll try the recommended stainless steel bolts the next time. They may be rust resistant enough to survive the application in cases where the water dripping from the bolts is not a problem.
Thanks for your comments.
That leaves only the condensation issue to deal with. Got any good ideas on that one?
Only successful one I've found is to back off about 18" and drill in (or posthole-dig) a pier in, and cantilever to the house.
But, that could also be reflex from seeing one too many bad ledger installs here in brick-veneered slab-on-grade land . . . <sigh>
Truth be told, I can't swear to ever really "liking" the traditional way through a brick veneered wall. Does not mean it can't, or shouldn't be done--just that it always bugs me a bit. Maybe it's that 5, 5.5" moment arm (and that only to the inside face of the ledger) back to "real" structure. Or, maybe, it's the mental image of that deck "counting" on those 26ga brick ties tacked to the sheathing hopefully somewhere "on schedule." But, I'm a pessimist that way; other differ.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Only successful one I've found is to back off about 18" and drill in (or posthole-dig) a pier in, and cantilever to the house.
That's probably the best option, for all the reasons we have discussed. You raise good reasons to avoid the ledger attachment, and the recent news stories about collapsed decks due to improper ledger attachment show the risks.
Thanks for your comments.
Or, smash one brick and study the guts.
You might drill the holes, fill with mortar and then drill again in a few days after it all sets up.
FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
What you have here is a "norman" brick and it is the cored variety, as opposed to a "solid". Cored brick have been the standard for quite some time, so the house cannot be that old.
There have been many discussions about attaching structural items to a wall with brick veneer so I know that you'll have no problem getting further advise.
Hilti makes a sleeve that slide into masonary to allow for epoxying in anchor bolts. A wedge anchor is not a good solution to this situation, and frankly in my opinion anchoring to the veneer is not the best one either.
Be careful
Bruce
Be careful. Be very careful! Just kidding. If I was a careful person I wouldn't have ever started this project or any other for that matter. I think part of being a hands on builder is sometimes just going for it. Not all the time mind you. The trick is know when to pull in help.
This thread has digressed into a "be careful", bring in an "expert" thread. Why in Gods green earth would I bring in an engineer for a shed? To me, That's just plain stupid. Why don't we all write some memos on it. Or call a meeting. That stuff drives me nuts. Make a decision for crying out loud. And make it good one because you are going to have to STAND behind it. I couldn't possibly make a decision based on my experience, or heaven forbid, my gut feeling. ;^)
I don't mean to dump on you. But Woodturner9 got me going. He comes off like a know it all and it just frosts my doughnuts. ;^)
I opened up the wall just now. I was to lazy or in a hurry to do it but in the end it's what I should have done earlier. The brick is structural. There is no "wythe or double wythe" as w9 calls them. Just call em a bricks. Just bricks laid on top of each other. ;^)
It's funny. As soon as my wife saw the drywall dust she asked if there was asbestos in it. Beats me. Maybe I should call in an expert. someone who REALLY knows what they are doing. ;^)
P.S. I put little fuuny faces in there so none of this is personal and should be taken with a detached sense of humor.
Here's the inside of the wall with drywall and an insulation board cut out. The wood is a pine t+g 1x6" nailer.
By the way the brick looks exactly like the brick on the inside of my garage. No block wall, just bricks.
The brick you show in your last picture doesn't look the same as the face brick you showed on the outside of your house.
That would imply to me you have a two layers of brick and they are probably stuctural in nature.
I think what is confusing to some of the people is your exterior brick don't look very old...and the solid brick walled house went out of favor a long time ago .... at least in this part of the country.
Dan
Like alot of materials they have two textures on the brick so you can choose which you like best. Same brick different side. The smooth side is on the inside of my garage also.
Building can be regional. Especially in the recent past. This neighborhood was built in the late fifties. After the "good" war. There must have been some brick factories in the region because alot of homes are faced or built out of brick. They were put up quickly and affordably. I can tell. They are single story ranches with low (affordable) roofs. I know there was a problem with the roof on this house last winter when they had alot of snow. To low of a pitch. The cost of housing is pretty high here because of the location (ft Collins, CO)but alot of these houses are just about the same as when they were built.
Edited 11/3/2007 3:49 pm ET by popawheelie
Edited 11/3/2007 3:54 pm ET by popawheelie
Is that a piece of steel running vertically next to the brick? What's it there for?
That would be a 1x6" on the one pic of the inside of the wall. I have no idea what you are talking about when you say a piece of steel.
Edited 11/3/2007 3:46 pm ET by popawheelie
That darker brown strip of material running vertical between the brick and wood. It looks like a lintel run vertical.
Maybe the pic doesn't show it well. There's nothing in that cavity except a 1x6 and air. Even if there was a piece of steel it would only be 3/4" thick. Doesn't make sense.
Here's the inside of the wall with drywall and an insulation board cut out. The wood is a pine t+g 1x6" nailer.
If you are suggesting this is the inside face of the exterior brick, you may have far bigger problems than you realize.
We are assuming brick veneer because of the age of the house - double wythe brick construction went out of favor toward the end of WWII in most areas.
Will you be pulling a permit for this work? The inspector will hopefully not approve an inappropriate ledger attachment.
Edited 11/5/2007 9:52 am ET by woodturner9
No offense taken, hence the suggestion provided about the Hilti thing. I have seen a facade pop off from a row of bolts holding a deck ledger.
Best of Luck.
Bruce
This thread has digressed into a "be careful", bring in an "expert" thread. Why in Gods green earth would I bring in an engineer for a shed? To me, That's just plain stupid. Why don't we all write some memos on it. Or call a meeting. That stuff drives me nuts. Make a decision for crying out loud. And make it good one because you are going to have to STAND behind it. I couldn't possibly make a decision based on my experience, or heaven forbid, my gut feeling. ;^)
I hope you have good liability insurance. You may well need it.
If you had appropriate experience, you wouldn't be asking these questions and would understand why what you are proposing is unsuitable.
Edited 11/5/2007 9:29 am ET by woodturner9
I'm not going to argue with you. You don't know me. You really have no idea who I am or what kind of experience I have.
As far as seeking advice is concerned. I am a bible believing Christian. Arguably, king Solomon was the wisest man ever.
1 kings 5: 29 God gave Solomon wisdom and very great insight, and a breadth of understanding as measureless as the sand of the seashore.
Here is a verse from the old testament written by king Solomon.
Proverbs 15:22 Plans fail for the lack of council,
but with many advisers they succeed
As a king, king Solomon had a lot of people around him who wanted to council him because he had absolute authority and resources. But instead of getting a big head and not seeking and listening to council, he humbled himself and sought it out. I respect most of the opinions of the men on this forum so I seek their advice.
Just because you seek out advice doesn't mean you are ignorant. Just because you seek out advice doesn't mean you have to take it. This is the power of good discussion and dialog.
I could go on but lets just let it go at that. O. K?
You really have no idea who I am or what kind of experience I have.
My comments were based on what you have said in this thread about your experience and what appear to be some rather significant misunderstandings as indicated in your posts. I have made no assumptions about your work or experience, simply responded to what you have said. I don't know your experience, but presumably you do, and presumably it is accurate to rely on your statements about your experience.
Why ask for advice if you aren't going to take it? To me, this thread can be summarized:
Is it ok to do this?
No!!!
Well, I'm going to do it anyway.
Like I said. I respect the onion of most of the members on this forum. The same goes for advice. You seek advice from many sources but you can't take it all because their will always be conflict of opinion. You have to sort through it and make a decision based on the advice you have received. Every person who responded to my initial question gave very different advice or slightly different advice than you gave me. You imply that every response lined up with yours. That's just not the case.
I respectively disagree with you. Is that ok? I'm being honest and up front with you. I respect your opinion so I respect you. I could just ignore you but I haven't. I haven't taken the gloves off and won't. This has been a healthy dialog but I'm not taking your advice. I want to end this amicably. Can we stop this now? i don't want keep doing this.
Every person who responded to my initial question gave very different advice or slightly different advice than you gave me.
What thread are you reading???
MH: Lag to studs
Hiker: Don't anchor to brick veneer
Me: Don't anchor to brick veneer, through bolts better than lags, lags might work depending on load.
JA: Maybe you could fill the brick holes with mortar and then anchor to that.
So, that's three people giving you essentially the same advice, one different opinion.
So all but one of us gave you the same advice, pretty much.
Like I said before, I hope you have good liability insurance and pull the proper permits.
I asked you to stop but you won't. Please stop.
Anyone is permitted to respond to any thread on this board. The real value of these threads, IMHO, is the future value. You have this question now, but in the future, 20 people may have similar questions, search this board, and find this thread and benefit from the information.
There is a good technical discussion taking place here. That is the point of this board. It's not appropriate to request others to stop posting to this thread or sharing their knowledge.
It bothered me that I couldn't know where the spaces were in this brick so I dug one out. I will make a nice paperweight. I can tend to be very thorough but I have learned that getting it done is important also. I will be remodeling the kitchen as well and plan to install a few windows in this brick. So knowing more about it is a good thing. I'm justifying the time spent on this. One ledger is up and a longer one is going up today. I think I can hit solid brick with this info.
Unfortunately, in the second picture, the "hole" is too dark to see what is back there. Is it wood framing? Is it a second wythe of brick, separated by an airspace? Something else?
hey woodturner I really appreciated your comment on this thread being for posterity. Here I am looking for solid info 12 years later. Like science/engineering info, not bible verses. Side note: who do you think this OP dude voted for??