That’s a tongue-in-cheek title just to get a rise out of y’all, but partially frustration, too. Probably should read Builder Sucks, but that’s not as much fun.
Finished a set of plans a month ago. Engineer done, too. Paid. All along, one builder has been attached to the project, and some details were to suit him.
A week after excavation starts, owner switches builders. New guy has less experience, less powerful equipment, etc. He talks the owner into changes. Instead of a tiered design (3 domes w/ 5′ elevation changes between), he has them grade the site for one level just by digging deeper. Why? Because it’s easier for him to build it that way. So, windows that worked fine, now gotta be changed be/c they look into a bank. And a garage underneath the one dome that would have been formed and sprayed in place as an integral structure (think dome over a cylinder), he now wants to become an ICF base with the dome on top at the same level of the other two. How are you gonna attach the airform, I ask? Him: Well, we can cut away the outer 3/4″ of ICF foam to reach concrete. Me: Oh? What brand of ICF uses only 3/4″ of foam? He mentions a brand that, research shows, uses 2.5″. Oops. Me: So how ya gonna weatherproof the ledge you create? Him: Dunno…you’ll give me a detail, right?
For a deck, we were planning to lay joists on top of a cut opening in the dome and extend them out from there. Easy to do and no cuts. But not with this guy. He want’s the ICF wall built higher. Why? So he can build the floor above the garage first, rather than last. Why? So he can work from it to do the dome part. Why? Because he only has 2 sections of scaffold, and so, cannot reach the heights of going from the garage floor to the dome top. Why not use a crane? Doesn’t wanna. OK…why not rent more scaffold? Doesn’t feel comfortable more than 2 sections high.
All right. So, we change a tiered design to a one level design that no longer matches the ridgeline of the hill this is built on. We change technologies, not because they’re better or cheaper (they’re more expensive), but be/c it’s more suitable to the builder. And he’s changing all the window openings to a more expensive method, too. Why? Because that’s the one method he learned. Also took away all the decorative openings that I’d made part of the design, and changed wall locations, too.
And you’ll love this. I have a 2′ wall between the two garage openings. He asked me to put a spiral staircase there coming onto the open porch above. I’ll leave it to the reader to figure out the genius of this.
Last curiosity…owner told me that this guys costs were almost exactly the same as the first guy’s. Yet this builder told me that he and the client didn’t discuss cost.
Oh…..and they need the revisions by Friday, be/c the excavators are already scheduled and that’s their last day on site.
Sighhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. How’s your week going?
Replies
So, why did the owner change builders?
Time to run.........too late!
Joe H
Didn't get a full answer...think it was just a personality thing...some people get along better than others. Client is nice, but REAL eager to please, and that means buying into whatever's said by whomever speaks to him last. I know that I could talk for an hour and convince him of the wisdom of the earlier choices. And then he'd talk to the builder and be convinced of the other all over again. Round and round we go. I know that he needs to have good rapport with his builder, so I'm hesitant to queer that relationship by saying how much the builder's pissing me off, but.....damn, the guy talks someone into ICF's without even knowing that they have 2.5" of foam and not 3/4. "And they're great be/c you can GLUE them together," he says. Arrrgggghhhh.
If I talk him out of this guy, then he's in another pickle, be/c those were the two available builders closest to him. No one else has a schedule opening for months and months.
He's really boxed himself into a corner...and wants me to get him out of it by Fri, it seems.
Any chance the three of you can get together, hash this thing out, and reach consensus? It sure would be nice for all three to be working together, building relationships along with the customer's new home. You can always buy a home. A good relationship is a little harder to come by, and far more valuable.
Not in their timeframe...though it's a great idea, and one I'd expect coming from you. Site is reasonably close to me, but builder is a good distance away (3+ hrs), as is owner's current home (7+ hrs) and that's where they'll be until they meet the excavators Sat. By then they say they need drawings.
Of course, I had a full week's work planned before this stuff, and I can't screw over those clients...
btw, I still owe you a videotape. Haven't forgotten...just haven't quite caught up enough to make the dupe.
I like Dunc's advice
It sounds like they cannot proceed without plans from you, right? That puts you in the driver's seat. If you let their time constraints box you in, you are giving them the upper hand.
This "builder" wants to play designer? Give him a pencil. You provided a design already. They got fair value from you.
Don't forget, after he mucks it all up, your name will still be on it iof you play their game.
The wishy washy owner is a good case for an archy being totally in charge of a project on their behalf.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Site is reasonably close to me, but builder is a good distance away (3+ hrs), as is owner's current home (7+ hrs) and that's where they'll be until they meet the excavators Sat. By then they say they need drawings.
Try a three way conference call. Your phone company will set you up.
oldfred
>> Time to run.........too late!
I agree with the Time to run, disagree with the too late.
There's two ways to train a guy who gets himself into a box and then wants you to get him out. One is to just leave him in the box. The other is to make him pay a really heavy price for the rescue. If I were in Cloud's position, I would probably say, "I'd be glad to help you out, but I've got work lined up for the next six weeks, and I won't be able to get to your plans before then." Or the heavy price approach, "Sure, I can do it by Friday. $15,000. Cash. In advance."
It seems to me like alienating this client and his builder would be something to celebrate, not something to regret.
I don't disagree, Dunc. I really don't.
A challenge is that I work in a small world, and all the stories get spread from one person to another REAL fast. If I bail, that's (I fear) the only part of the story that anyone will remember. It's happened before with others. All my well-considered reasons for bailing would be forgotten. Reputations are hard to build and easy to f-up. Of course, don't want the opposite rep either (as spineless). Balancing bad outcomes and looking for the one that makes me smell like a rose...
Cloud,
Anybody who knows that little about ICF's is not capable of doing it right and one thing I know for sure about ICF's is that they are easy to f__k up and hard to fix. Whose responsibility is it to supervise him? I hope it's not yours.
Ron
No management services.
I agree. Builders s**k! Had to fire one today. Painter turned GC with his Dad helping super. Dad calls, says last load ready to go. I say outstanding invoice. No pay, no workee. (I've had a helluva month. Probably the hardest I've worked in 4-5 years. So I'm not in the mood to smooze a wannabe) He says something like you've only been in twice. I say that how it works. Job passes milestone, we pick up and you pay.
He called me an amature and hung up. HAHAHA
I am deciding if I'm gunna flip him off as I drive by his pile of crap.
Just not in the mood for a 1x a year GC to bring an attitude.
Thanks for the chance to vent. IMHO GC gots to pay for expedited new plans. Now whether you leave a mark on him is your decision. I'm sure you will be fair w/him.
Good point that if the builder initiates changes, he should bear cost of redesign. Good way to control a fool is to put a bridle on his pocketbook.
BTW, what do you do?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
>IMHO GC gots to pay for expedited new plans.
I LIKE that. I'm not good at pissing people off (intentionally, that is...good at doing it accidentally) but y'all are getting me into a good pissy mood.
Perhaps I'll offer to let the builder execute his design if he's so inclined.
And I also like the idea of telling the HO that if he wants my help then he needs to stop caving in to a guy who thinks ICF's have 3/4" walls (a brand that is 2.5") and who suggested a 15% growth in building size without costing it out for an HO with an extremely tight budget.
Jeff, belt loops? That's a Mikey story I haven't heard. Do tell...
Edit: And the following really registered...thanks.
"Let the HO and new builder know how things should ... and will ... be built ... if U are to still be there helping out in the end.
At worst ... you'll get a rep for not taking sh!t and only building for and with quality builder and HO's ...."
Edited 5/24/2004 11:53 pm ET by Cloud Hidden
Jeff, belt loops? That's a Mikey story I haven't heard. Do tell...
nah ... that's a Jeff- Story that Mike likes to refer to ....
told it nationally first at PeteFest ...
I think Mike has me booked to do a re-telling at MikeFest .....
short ... but sweet. Get yer tickets early ....
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
>I think Mike has me booked to do a re-telling at MikeFest .....short ... but sweet. Get yer tickets early ....
Ahhh well then, guess I'll just have to figure out how to go on with life never knowing. Snif.
Sorry to read you're having a tough week. Guess we ALL get to work with jerks once in a while.
We had one over the past few days. His trusses were scheduled to be delivered this Friday. Last Thursday he calls up and says he has to have 'em Wednesday. We say no way - Maybe we can move 'em up to Thursday, but not Wednesday.
Builder has a cow - Calls everyon he can think of to pressure us to move up his delivery date. Rants, raves, and calls over and over. We have guys come in on Saturday to try to get back on schedule. (We're behind) The plant guys (and I) are already working 50+ hours per week.
We adjust our schedule, put off a couple of other customers, and try to get enough work done so we can move his order up to Wednesday like he wants.
Monday he calls and says he decided to go on vacation for a few days, so postpone his delivery for a week.The only difference between a tax man and a taxidermist is that the taxidermist leaves the skin. -- [Mark Twain]
That's a case for justifiable homicide, Ron. Or at least a tatoo of, "I'm stupid" on his forehead.
Just spoke with client. He agrees now that the cost issue has to be resolved first and is glad I put my foot down. Said that's why he hired me in the first place. Go figure. He's concerned about some of the things I was told. For example, I asked him if he had expressed a desire to lose the decorative front opening we'd included in his design (it's sooo much fun to cut these buildings apart into neat shapes). He said, "No, I think it's cool. I love it and just want to change the door to a window." Well, the builder's email to me includes this line, "Scott is definitely looking forward to losing the decorative opening." That sounds a bit different than, "I love it." Talk about failure to communicate! The client generously said he thought the builder just misunderstood him.
When you say that the client is swayed by whoever he's with, and the builder may not have the experience he needs...and then the thing about the door/window...hmmm.
I'd be putting my foot down for a three way meeting, 'cause it sounds to me like that stuff will just keep happening. And, since some folks have pretty selective memories, I'd want to tape those meetings. We've had to that<G> Don't worry, we can fix that later!
"Communication is everything." (anyone who's ever run a sucessful company)
You also need to know when to say "No."
This is a wreck waiting to happen, a slow motion wreck.
There is time to stop, even if it means some sort of a financial compromise.
Better now than later, when the alligators have a firm grip on both legs.
Joe H
Monday he calls and says he decided to go on vacation for a few days, so postpone his delivery for a week.
You delivered on Wednesday, I hope.
It was a crane job, so there wouldn't have been much point.
And there's no point in making a bad situation worse...Why is the time of day with the slowest traffic called "rush hour"?
piffin,
We scrap out mostly new construction sites. Give most builders a flat rate based on SF of house and try to make it work. We are putting truck #12 into service next week. Truck 13 is down at body builder waiting for a box to be fabbed. A bunch of big jobs are in front of lil ol me so they are saying July 23. We changed to a diff buildr that promised July 15. I believe the 2nd guy so we changed. These trucks were ordered in February. Ouchie.
I knew these trucks were coming so we sold some biz to keep em busy. And the body builder let us down. We will do about 2000 starts this year in 3 markets.
I think I remember your explanation from years ago...ok so it was months ago. Basically you have replaced the dumpster, with the added benefit that you load the trash too...is that right? Is there really that much benefit to the builder? Must be since you're up to truck 13.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Basically builder know price before starting production. Go down the line and run a PO for every house you're going to build. SF x SF price = Total Cost. Easy. Builder doesn't have to hire labor, supervise labor, benefits for labor. No dumpsters on site for eaasy homeowner loading. Etc, etc, etc.
Commercial construction not our deal, remodels we can do OK, not great (hourly). But mainly we focus on new construction
I work in a small world, and all the stories get spread from one person to another REAL fast. If I bail, that's (I fear) the only part of the story that anyone will remember
That the whole thing turned to sheet because this new builder has no clue (even less I'm thinking) you're gonna be blamed anyway.
You, by not telling both of them of the approaching train wreck doesn't seem like the best course for any of the three of you.
Run, or be prepared to get way more involved than you want to be when it does go bad.
If you can't bring yourself to run now, you won't be able to later either.
Joe H
"I fear"
Fear is the greatest imobilizing force in the world. This might stand in the way of success here.
Try rewriting the sentence thusly,
"If I take charge, that's the part of the story that people will remember"
There is no better feeling for me than when a client says, "I'm so glad we listened to you." unless it is, "I sure do wish we had listened to you."
When you are confident that you are right, there is no such thing as arrogance or hesitation.
You just do.
and what you do is right.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
So Mrs Lincoln, other than that how did you like the play.
I half feel for you. Rigfht now I am wrestling with a question of whether to stand and fight an interior designer over something at least as stupid, or just walk away. I feel I have an obligation to the owners to ensure quality on their behalf - I think it's a little recognized t6hing called loyalty - but at the same time I can see where this thing is going to go and nobody will be happy so I should cut bait now.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Belt Loops ....
ask Mike Smith ... he'll explain.
Now ... my little part of meaningless advice ... keep in mind ... U are the professional.
U know what's best. U were hired to make this train roll ... not wreck.
Sometimes a little blunt honestly hurts some feels but gets alot more done in the end.
Sounds like it's time for you to start educating the masses ....
Let the HO and new builder know how things should ... and will ... be built ... if U are to still be there helping out in the end.
At worst ... you'll get a rep for not taking sh!t and only building for and with quality builder and HO's ....
but U knew that. OK ... now go and listen to some real builders that really know what they're talking about!
Jeff
Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Be brave.
Be bold.
Don't quit,
don't give in,
and don't do sh!t work.
SamT
At least for the moment, I found a way to deflect all of this. Suggestion came from the engineer, who's in the same boat as me with the changes. I recommended to the client that they get a formal cost estimate of the design as is before even considering the size changes. The changes would add minimum 15% to a budget they can barely swing now. I don't think it's doable bigger. So, by deflecting it back to the builder, who's frankly irresponsible for recommending size increases before even budgeting the initial plan, the burden is on him to demonstrate what he can do besides changing an accepted, paid for, and PERMITTED design. Did I mention that they've pulled the permit already!?!?!?
We'll see what response that gets...
Hey Buddy!
I think "Builders S--k" would be a great addition to the magazine world!
After the year I've been through, with a couple of difficult customers, rising insurance rates and commodity costs, like sheetgoods and rebar, such comic relief would be welcome.
A companion magazine might be called "Customers S--k."
I'd also be inclined to enter "Lawyers S--k" to the list, but I wouldn't want to insult Bob Walker!
I have no input to the heart of your post, although I must say I'm mystified sometimes how some people keep from drowning in their own self-importance and B.S.
(Jeez! I proofread my post, and I sound like AndyBuildz!)
May the Builder S--ks be with You!!
:-)
Throw in "Designers S--k" because somewhere in GA right now there's probably a builder being forced into a cost estimate who's saying EXACTLY that!
(I'm pondering the rest of the and wondering what inspired your mystification...)
My mystification stems from knowing a couple of locals (one is a builder, one is a contractor rep in one of the local yards) who are masters at taking ownership of projects over the objections or better judgement of owners/designers/architects, etc., and selling a bill of goods that usually results in grief for somebody.
I'm mystified at the longevity of their careers, given their well-known reputations.
Gotcha. Thanks. Things are a lot of fun when everyone does their job and not everybody else's.
Update: Owner sends along some email from the builder. I told him to keep me out of any back and forth like this. But first I read it in astonishment. Among the notable items in it...the builder questions the appropriateness of the engineering of the structure. Only problem...he hasn't seen the engineering!!!! Didn't stop him. He speculated on it, and then criticized it as though that was real!!!!! Here's the actual quote for your amusement:
"How thick is that stem wall supposed to be sprayed? I have not seen the engineering specifications. Is it 3"? Are you content with having your second floor with all of its kitchen appliances sitting on top of a stem wall of 3"?"
Let's see. Try to scare the builder over something the engineer never said. That's just great.
The builder also complains that my method would have him working 30' off the ground inside the dome. That'd be a neat trick, since the building's only 24' tall--clearly marked on the prints--and the scaffold would be 17' or less!!
I've told the owner I won't engage in these pointless discussions with the builder. Owner can pick the path he chooses to follow, and if it's not one I can recommend, I won't put my name to it and I won't do any drawings. Don't know what he'll do, but he's really screwed the pooch. Sent the first guy packing and hitched his wagon to the second. Oh yeah, the second guy's prelim est is $20,000 higher than the first guy's! THAT'S gotta hurt.
I have never done a dome, but I bet I could follow the drawings and do a better job than this bozo.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
I'm sure you and any experienced builder could. The work is physical, but following the steps and engineering is not much of a mental challenge.
hi jim-
"Round and round we go." that could be your company slogan. it works on several levels!
you said if you wash your hands of the whole thing you'll end up getting blamed for any future problems and your reputation will/may suffer. i'm thinking with this pair of pencild!cks, pretty much ANY problems are gonna get blamed on you anyway, even if you stick it out to the bitter end (and i'm afraid that could be pretty bitter, my friend).
this leaves you with two choices- dig in and straighten out everything, right here, right now, everyones' feelings be damned, with extremely thorough documentation and sign offs on every last microscopic detail (and start out by saying you won't go thru this process for free). or, extremely thorough letter of resignation from this clusterf*** with a not-so-veiled threat of a libel/slander action if any of this garbage ever comes back on you. personally, if you've got enough work, i'd take option #2.
m
It would seem that you should suggest to the owner that he hire someone who can read and do math to go over everything with the builder, and that, until the builder can read, you really don't need to hear any more.
Just who do you think you are designing something that "can't be built"?...some kinda danged architect! RARLMAO (rolling "a round" laughing my azz off!) Don't worry, we can fix that later!
Just got an email that the owner fired the second builder. And wants to re-engage the first one. If that guy says no, he's got a real problem.
jim...., great news ! that is EXACTLY what i was going to recommend.. get the original builder back !
and go back to the original plans...
i think this is winnable.. put your new team together and keep the information channels open.... you, the owner, and the builder... all on the same page again !Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
>i think this is winnable.. put your new team together and keep the information channels open.... you, the owner, and the builder... all on the same page again !
Got calls from each this AM, and this looks like the case. And the only change to the plans is that the excavators cut a tier deeper than expected, so the elevation be/t two of the domes will change a little bit. It'll actually work in the owner's favor. All he has to do is check with the inspector to see if they want a new elevation drawing or not.
So, I might be able to avoid any redraws. And they might be able to start in 3 weeks or so.
Owner told me this had him so stressed out he was puking blood. Wow. Today he's relieved with a capital R.
If it goes ahead as now planned, I'll post pix. Thanks to everyone here for their perspectives. It helped me to get a firm grasp of the situation sans the emotions of the people involved, and that certainty of the right thing to do transferred through to the owner and gave him the balls to make the right decision.
Switch owners!
Nice guy. Just trying too hard to make everyone happy. Of course, that just makes everyone unhappy.
maybe you should talk to the first builder (assuming he comes back), see if the two of you can keep the owner under control!!!!
Do I have ta move back down there? LOL. A buddy just informed me he's putting up 18 homes in Jackson Co. Wanted me to come down for a "Few 4 day weeks" right..
Sounds like builder #2 is some of the idjits I knew of over in MAcon Co. If the HO really is screwed from Builder #1..I do know of some to your west that could handle it..there are some good guys out that way..
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
>Do I have ta move back down there?
Maybe! Owner asked me out to the site, but I'm not going be/c it's a lost day with no gain. Told him what he needs to do. He'll either do it or won't do it. Site is near Robbinsville. If you have contacts there, might be useful. Like I said, owner is nice guy, just trying too hard to please everyone and letting himself be pulled this way and that (and that and that and that) in the process--I had warned him long ago about committing to and sticking to a plan, but hey, whadda I know?
yup, that's a truck from yer place..Graham or Cherokee Co. I think..I'll be talking with a bud in Highlands tonite..he has a lot of work across the stateline in Ga. Lake Raburn area..and maybe has a crew he could free up..Robbinsville is not much difference in travel for the guys..most of them are living in Franklin, Highlands, Cashiers area.
Outta curiosity wanna email me bozo#2's name? [email protected] different then the last email addy ya had of mine.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Why do you want Bozo #2's name? Just to put on your sh!t list?
I have a lot of friends down there still, and fore warned is fore armed..or I may have worked with him in the past..I knew some real bozos, and I hope they are gone from the area...most got railroaded back to Fla. where they were from.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
We'll keep names out of this. Don't wanna sully any reputations. Focus on the positive. Hoping owner'll hook up with a builder who can help to keep the owner's enthusiasm properly channeled.