Replies

1. 
   Chris_Koehn | Oct 16, 2001 11:42pm | #1

   *
   Ed- I'm from Wisconsin. Not Idaho, but still can get pretty miserable in winter.
   Most materials can deal with winter pretty well. Adhesives come in all weather versions; nail guns have oil; concrete has chloride (I've always had concerns about this one though..). but there's nothing anyone can do about what happens to quality when the gloves go on, the wind's blowing up your knickers, and all you can think about is getting it done so you can go some place warm..
   We do this all the time, but speaking as a realist, I'm not sure we provide the best job possible under these conditions. And if it's on t&m it WILL be slower, no questions asked. Perhaps your contractor is looking a little thin over winter and wants a job to keep busy. That's understandable, and perhaps desirable. Just be sure you spell out your concerns, and keep an eye on things. Shoddy workmanship should be evident to an educated eye. I'll let someone else speak specifically to the chloride issue..

   p.s. best thing I've seen lately in this regard is a client who bought 5 gallon pails of Thompson's Water Seal and squeegeed on to his plywood deck as soon as it was done. Really worked- plywood decks can really take a beating in the weather even if it's only for a couple of weeks.

1. 
   Mike_Smith | Oct 16, 2001 11:54pm | #2

   *we build all year round because we eat all year round...in the winter , it's harder.. but if you have an experienced contractor who's giving you year- round prices for winter work, he's the one who's taking the beating, not you..we try to pour foundations before christmas...what makes sense in idaho may be thanksgiving....if he has a track record .. he can tell you the pitfalls of winter building... mostly everything takes longer..... i think the rule of thumb is a 10% decrease in production for every 10 degrees below 70 or above 70...we try to get weathered in for winter , so we can do our interior work in january , february & march.. but ..it doesn't always work that way...insulated forms... admixtures to concrete, granular backfill...covered materials... it all helps, so does an experienced and concientous builder...

1. 
   David_Thomas | Oct 17, 2001 01:31am | #3

   *Mike is right about decreased productivity. I've seen estimates of a 1% decrease for every 1 degree below 60F. That suggests productivity goes to zero at -40F. Which is just about right.So who pays for the decreased productivity? Something for you to be clear about. Maybe expediting the schedule is worth that much to you. Or maybe the contractor eats it to keep his best guys on board. Hopefully you aren't paying for extra hours of the B team.Quality is going to suffer. Sure, you bang most of the ice of the plywood and try to do precise work, but it is not going to be as tight as could be done by the same guys in shorts and Hawaiian shirts.Concrete is the first issue with starting during freezing weather. We poured our garage slab in late October at 20F. But covered it with 2" of foam and a blue tarp. And run hot gycol through the radiant slab tubing. That floor got to cure at 70F for three days before the being allowed to cool off. Some people claim that the heat generated during curing will be enough (it does help). Or that accelerators will allow it cure without loss of cured strength. Look for someone who is knowledgable and honest enough to acknowledge the drawbacks of pouring concrete in freezing wheather and has a plan to minmize those effects.Heaters run inside the building can introduce a lot of moisture that can condense in the insulation. For that and safety reasons (CO posioning), only indirect heaters should be used. -David

1. 
   Keith_C | Oct 17, 2001 03:26am | #4

   *GENERALLY...the exterior work is less than perfect, but the interior work is magnificent.(I will waste a month on something inside that should take 2 weeks as long as I don't have to put on those MF'ing Carhartts and go outside)

1. 
   piffin_ | Oct 17, 2001 04:34am | #5

   *I'd put zero production at thirty below. I worked one day where the wind chill was something like 86 below - got maybe one hours work done in a ten hour day.Exhaustion sets in easier too.Here in Maine we try to have concrete done by thanksgiving, but it can be done later at expense.All that said - a builder who knows how to organize and run a job can do OK in the winter - but not if he's fighting the owner about it every other day.

2. 
   Schelling_McKinley | Oct 17, 2001 04:34am | #6

   *We have been working through the last twenty five winters in upstate NY and will continue to do so in order to eat. We have few problems working with the temp at 20 F but will usually find inside work if the temp is below +5 F. Wind is of course a huge factor. We try to have both inside and outside work and use the beginning and end of the days for inside stuff. It doesn't always work out. Sometimes we pack it up and go home. This happens less than five times each winter. Probably not a lot more than rain the rest of the year. There are a couple of advantages to working in the winter. One, shoveling snow will warm you up in the coldest weather and two, springtime will come a lot earlier for you than for the average office dweller.

3. 
   piffin_ | Oct 17, 2001 04:40am | #7

   *One morning the thermometer read thirty below and I went out to warm up the truck. When I grabbed the heater extension cord to unplug it, the end exploded because the plastic/rubber was so cold.Then I got in and the tranny fluid was so stiff that I couldn't get it out of gear until the engine had run for a few minutesand tranfered a little heat back to it. Once it was out of gear I left it running and went back in for another cup of Java.Got all mugwumped up for the cold and got back in the truck cab, slipped her into gear, adn when I eased off the clutch, the rear tire exploded from the cold.I figured the thermometer was wrong and went back inside for the day, except for changing the tire.

4. 
   phil_eves | Oct 17, 2001 04:58am | #8

   *all right, it was thirty below(celsius), I was doing soffets, the wind picked up ,I went inside to warm up, went outside again,20 min.s out, 15min.s inside all day for three days, never did the effectiveness thing, but got the job done and lots of thanks from the guys who wouldn't go out.

5. 
   David_Thomas | Oct 17, 2001 04:01pm | #9

   *Piffin: From the tire exploding I'd guess below -45F (or -43C, if you prefer). But thermometers measure air temperatures and a car parked in an open area on a clear night can get 10-15F below air temperature from overnight radiant cooling (dumps infrared radiation to deep space and gets nothing back). That's why cars have condensation on them when RH didn't get below 60% and frost when temps were in the 40's.They make "arctic" extension cords that are good to -58F. Usually blue. Those orange ones get lousy around 0F.Without plug-ins, our 50,000 mile Subaru will start at -10F allright, the 180,000 Toyota at -20F. And the 280,000 Toyota at -35F (less compression to work against). It's dropping an inch an hour of snow and I'm off to pour a little concrete. -David

6. 
   piffin_ | Oct 18, 2001 02:18am | #10

   *I was using Amsoil synthetic in the engine is only reason it started - regular oil was gelling up at about -14F and making it hard to turn over. This was in about 1977 - they didn't have subzerocords on the shelf back then. Thermometer was near my window and catching radiant heat from the house I am sure.One day when I left the house that winter it was -2F and a nice sunshine day so I knew it would warm up. Cut through the divide to the next town and started laying T-lock shingles with bare hands. Sun made it feel nice. At ten we did coffee break and found out that this town was in a colder inversion - it had just warmed up to -14F from about -30F. My mind was telling me it was warmer than it was so it didn't faze me. After knowing, it seemed colder.

7. 
   Mike_Ferguson | Oct 18, 2001 04:31am | #11

   *Not to be harsh but from a High Arctic point of view the word wimps comes to mind. Here building materials come in by ship in late August or early September and everything is frozen by mid-September. Crews work 7 days a week, 12-14 hours per day to buildings closed in by mid- to late October (temperatures close to 5 F now). Productivity is high during this period because by mid-November we'll be into 24-hr without sunlight until mid-February, and temperatures will be -25 to -50 C thruout that period. So at 72 N, your up against lighting problems and cold... Lighting is the bigger problem in terms of safety... Hammering a frozen finger, sawing it off, tripping or slipping on a dark object in the dark and falling off a roof... You can work 24 hrs per day with two crews with plenty of temporary lights... it goes fast. Materials are very important in these conditions... E.g., avoid vinyl siding and exterior trim (it breaks), avoid aluminum and steel (it's very cold and steel is heavy). Wood is good. Most of the nice stuff (exterior painting, door trim, final soffits can wait until spring) just get it weather tight.Workers clothing is important... insulated coveralls, steel toed/shanked felt pac boots, have a variety of gloves, mitts because hands are hard to keep warm, glove/mitt combs (the gloves have no finger tips, but the mitt part flips over the fingers as a mitt or sticks to velcro on the back of the hand as a glove)... KEEP THE HEAD WARM... If your hands or toes are cold, put on a warmer hat!!! Fur melton hats are great. When too much heat is escaping from the head, the body closes down the cappillaries to the hands and feet and those parts get cold... If too much escapes from the hands, feet and head, the blood stays in the body core... result: dull brain... poor coordination... more cold... slower work... more accidents.Workers food is as important... lots of on site coffee, tea, chocolate, cup-o-noodle/soup, etc. Meats with oils provide more sustained warmth (especially wild meats, stews, soups) than do cookies, do-nuts, etc. Sugar and carbohydrates may make you feel better for a few minutes but has no lasting effect... In the west, serve some elk bratwurst with morning coffee and moose stew for afternoon coffee.Here it is varying from -5 to -20 C and the new addition on our school is not close to being closed in... a steel framed building (the crane had to go back to Montreal on the last ship in late sept)... We just finished our first 3 day blizzard of the winter and the guys are back at it... Do guys have Herman-Nelsons (large propane fired burners)? Cover a side of the building with a series of large tarps... turn on the Herman Nelson... and finish the wood siding job at -30 C (-20 F) no problem...Go for it... get it done... just get the concrete work done ASAP.Mike

8. 
   CaseyR_ | Oct 18, 2001 06:31am | #12

   *Only slightly off topic... One hazard of building in the Arctic that I didn't think about until I watched Eskimo Joe's Cafe in Barrow, AK, burn to the ground, is fire. It wasn't that far below zero at the time, but all the fire hoses froze solid in a few minutes and everyone had to just stand back and watch it burn. But this was in the 70's, so perhaps they have some miracle foam now. (An anthropology Ph.D. student living upstairs lost 5 irreplaceable years of field notes - so I suppose I could also make a few comments about multiple backups - nah...)

9. 
   Cliff_Popejoy | Oct 18, 2001 07:33am | #13

   *How can you tell a graduate student at a fire?They're pushing the firefighters out of the way to get in and save their research notes....that one was going around at UCLA when I was there in the mid-70s.

10. 
    L._Siders | Oct 18, 2001 08:17am | #14

    *I am glad I am a cabinet maker and a reluctant carpenter. I don't work in the cold..

11. 
    David_Thomas | Oct 18, 2001 10:23am | #15

    *Piffin: met a University of Alaska, Fairbanks professor who reported testing the cloudpoint (when the waxes start to crystalize out) of motor oils. Most had cloudpoints about -30F. Chevron was good to -40F. Below -40 only the synthetics remained completely liquid. Plus synthetics are of a more appropriate viscosity at low temps. They still get thicker in the cold, but not as much.Mike: I hope those Herman-Nelsons are indirect heaters. Or your guys tough enough to shrug off a little carbon monoxide? Casey: Fire is a huge issue in the Arctic because wood and furnishings get so very dry in the low indoor humidity. They are much more flamable when that dry. Also, as you point out, firefighting water is hard to come by. And the chimney effect pushing heat and flames upward is much greater when the building is in a sea of very dense outside air.Buildings should be oriented with their long axis parallel to the prevailing wind to reduce the snow drifts that pile up on the lee side. But this means a fire in the upwind end of a building travels very fast as soon as someone runs out the downwind door. So kitchens and such should be on the downwind end.And there should be some detached heatable building with food and clothing inside. So you have some place to go after running out into -40F in your skiveys. "Out of the frying pan into the deep freeze."Was Pepe's North of the Border Mexican Resturant in Barrow when you were there? Northernmost burrito I've ever had. -David

12. 
    blue_eyed_devil_ | Oct 18, 2001 11:25am | #16

    *Mike, you can call me a wimp. I admit it.Heading south asap,blue

13. 
    FredB | Oct 18, 2001 08:51pm | #17

    *Hey David it really doesn't matter which way a building is oriented from a fire point of view. The fire generates its's own draft. What does matter is that you know how to get out NOW from anywhere in the building and what to do then.As far as building in the cold is concerned all the construction in Antartica says most of the time it is just a matter of money. About the only time they don't build is in the deep cold when it gets really, really cold. For us in North America we can build year-round if we are willing to pay.So, esyslo don't worry about when the contractor builds. Worry that you have a good one that will do a good job for you.

14. 
    esyslo | Oct 19, 2001 12:49am | #18

    *thanks for your insight I appreciate it Ed

15. 
    Tony_Ferrito | Oct 19, 2001 02:37am | #19

    *Piffin, Once framed a house on a point on Bailey Island Me. Started about this time of year. You could see Mt Washington on a clear day. Beautiful spot but man wasit cold we ran electic space heaters inside one guys pickup cap to get a warm place for break and to thaw out our fingers. The extension cord to the heaters would melt their way thru the snow! One AM we came in to find 24' 2x12s had blown off the stack. It was the longest winter of my life, and the coldest.Istill miss Maine tho.. Went back for vacation in August.Did some Kayaking, saw some friends, saw some loons, bought some tools, ate some lobster, wished I didn't have to leave!!Where abouts are you? the whole state is beautiful except maybe Old Orchard Beach in the summer!Mr. T in NY

16. 
    piffin_ | Oct 19, 2001 02:53am | #20

    *Even Old Orchard Beach in the summer has its beauty for some, but not me - I'm straight!I'm in Penobscot Bay. Fairly sheltered actually. Most of my cold stories arre from growing up in the snow belt off Lake Erie in western NY or from ten years of living at high altitudes in Colorado.Been here for about 14 yrs.I had one job here where I had a bunk of PT plywood sitting at the corner of the building. (you know how winbd accelerates as it goes around?) I could thrown stones into the bay, I was so close. Tried to hold the bunk in place by using duplex sixteens at each corner and laying a couple of 6x6 posts across for ballast. One morning I came in and that bunk was spread 150ft to the tree line like a deck of cards spewed out from a careless dealer shuffling .I get a good charge out of a wind but that was a scary night.

17. 
    Skip_Keith | Oct 19, 2001 06:10am | #21

    *Somebody give me a south seas building story before i freeze to death. Brrrrr !!! Skip

18. 
    phil_eves | Oct 19, 2001 06:19am | #22

    *Previous life and line of work, had to work in an open air planer mill,40 below(in both temperature scales), with a wind, and got told that you should NEVER wear safety toes in that weather....your toes freeze!.sorry, still not the south seas.

19. 
    James_DuHamel | Oct 19, 2001 03:10pm | #23

    *Here ya go Skip!I've been working on a roof repair for the last little while, and yesterday it was mid 80's. I was SWEATING, and getting a tan.Today, it will get in the low to mid 80's again. Beautiful days lately. No clouds, lots of sunshine and warm weather. I'll be sweating again today, but enjoying the warmth and sunshine.When it gets below +40° (RARELY), I'll just stay in a warm bed. James DuHamel

20. 
    Frenchy_Dampier | Oct 19, 2001 05:51pm | #24

    *James, Well there is one benefit about living in Northern states, we have the longest life spans,.... and none of your comments about freeze dried either!

21. 
    David_Mason | Oct 19, 2001 07:47pm | #25

    *David Thomas, I hear you about that 1" a 1/2 hour. SBS delivered our sheetrock yesterday out at Tesoro refinery and we had to carry it 40' from the parking lot to the building . By the time we would get back to bring in the next sheet it would be completely covered in snow . I also had the unlucky timeing of walking in the building right when some snow slid off the metal roof and right down the back of my neck . I never dropped my end of the rock though. I dread working in the snow but I love playing in it. Dave

22. 
    piffin_ | Oct 20, 2001 12:18am | #26

    *I'd rather work in the snow than the rain.Snow doesn't soak in.

23. 
    Luka_ | Oct 20, 2001 01:03am | #27

    *Yeah, but you don't have to shovel rain.

24. 
    Keith_C | Oct 20, 2001 03:49am | #28

    *Okay...let's say you're homeless....why would you stay in the north sleeping on manhole covers or park benches covered with newspaper for warmth when you could be just as homeless down on the beach somewhere?? Me ,.....hell, I'd follow the sun. Winter in the south, summer in the north. just stick out your thumb and move.

25. 
    David_Thomas | Oct 20, 2001 06:10am | #29

    *Dave Mason: I didn't realize you lived in the Kenai area. I must have passed that SBS truck with your drywall as I was driving south to Homer. No snow down there yet. No wonder they call it the Banana Belt of Southcentral Alaska. -David

26. 
    David_Mason | Oct 20, 2001 07:22am | #30

    *Yes, I live in Sterling. I seen on the weather that we're gonna get some more snow tommorow. I hope that I didn't leave any tools , cords or hoses out because I may not see them again until spring.

2. 
   esyslo | Oct 20, 2001 07:22am | #31

   *
   we plan to have a new house built next spring. our contractor would to start right away. we are concerned about building in winter weather. it gets cold in north Idaho will that affect the concrete foundation? what effects would rain and snow have on framing and sheathing materials? what are your thoughts on this? thank you Ed