Interesting point came up today while discussing my project with building inspector. My roof has sufficiently long valleys that I can’t meet NC code for roof venting. So I retained an engineer, who designed the roof assembly for me, which called for an unvented roof with spray foam.
The inspector is basically ready to sign off on it, but one thing he brought up was he wanted proof that my roofing would be warranted over this foam and unvented.
I didn’t say anything to him (yet), but I was curious under what authority is he operating when telling me I can’t void my own warranty? I’m not trying to be a jerk and do understand and appreciate his concern for my warranty, but honestly I know that roof warranties are worth about as much as the wrapper they are printed on.
Mostly though I’m curious what part of the code or his job allows him to make me stay within my warranty?
MERC.
Replies
I'll send you the sign off.
Of course they overstep their bounds. When they finally meet up with someone that is willing to take them on...they lose.
Here in Michigan we have a developer that raked in MILLIONS with a capital M. Some city tried to slow down development and locked horns with the wrong builder. Basically, the judge awarded all the lost profits from the entire project....and ordered the city to let them develop it just the way they wanted to in the first place!
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
That's interesting. I was wondering about the liability of a building department dragging butt over non-standard building technique. I've got a lot of money in engineering in this house and I'm starting to get tired of them always wanting something else.
And I love going to the rack with these kind of people. I just need to be careful because he can make life somewhat difficult. Fortunately I'm not totally strapped for money so I can afford to throw a few hundred at engineers to dance around him for a while. I've got 4 local building science guys that are all plugged into this thing and ready to have a "conference call" with him.
Should get fun.
MERC.
My question is, what's the alternative? If you can't vent it to the state standard, does that mean you have to tear the roof off and redesign it?
Well that is another thing altogether. Normally they just want you to drill vent holes in the valley jacks and vent that way, but we all know that doesn't work. They just basically look the other way or say "that is the best you can do". They also require to get a structural engineer to sign off on the butchering of the valley jacks. I'm not getting into any of that and from the beginning I knew I was spraying an unvented roof, so valley lengths weren't a concern for me.
MERC.
Don't know about where your at but around here 'building science guys, because they carry no liability for being wrong, won't get you far. They can testify and swear all they want and it means exactly nothing. I wired a house for a guy with a masters in building science, he actually taught it, and several other advanced degrees in sciences. AHJ politely listened before telling him his professional opinion, if combined with a wet stamp from an architect, would allow things to pass swimmingly. Otherwise no stamp no dice.If you can get a architect or engineer licensed in the locality you can do pretty much as you please. A detailed set of plans with a wet stamp covers it. In providing a wet stamp the engineer accepts liability which frees up the inspector.
My roof assembly was designed by a PE, letter was stamped and signed by that individual. they are still raising questions which I don't understand. They wouldn't take on a structural engineer. I think they are grasping at straws with this warranty crap. Just not sure why.
MERC.
My roof is installed to manufacturers specs. It's a 40 year shingle.
At 14 years old it is now determined defective. Replacement cost is $12,000 and the manufacturer is bound by a class action lawsuit for $3,000 as their entire responsibility.
Can I now go after the local inspector?
Coincedentaly, I'm studying the code right now...I'm probably wrong, I'm going to have a good time with the test<G>, but, the only times I've seen anything about warrantees is in contracts. The engineer's stamp usually relieves the inspections dept of any responsibility, in my experience. Did the inspector not sign off? Is it Bobby Pettigrew? You may need a hit man...LOL
Sorry I haven't come by, but that's what happens when you're your own GC LOL.
Warranties are our owView Imagen affairs,a proof of our consciencious expedition of our affairs, but not always the "living proof " of our intent to do well for the end client... in this case it seems you were dictated to in some way that determines the requirement for such long valleys...
recently, here in Houston,some"know-it-alls" were trying to get warranties enforced upon contractors for municipal,and otherwise "specification by buyer's representative" type work,talk about revolt...
Scribe once, cut once!
Some building codes (no idea what you are under) require that you follow the manufactures installation instructions. So in a round-about way the inspector may be correct. Not installed to manufactures specs-no warranty. No warranty? Must not have followed manufactures instructions, therefor a code violation.
Interesting point. Bucksnort - you seen anything like this in the NC code?
MERC.
Lots of manufacturers warrant their shingles on hot roofs. Check the websites. Anthing that would be warranted on a SIP should be fine.
This won't help you with your AHJ, but, I've worked with Bill Rose, who's a research architect at the U. of Illinois, and sits on the ASRAE code board. He's got a long term project comparing vented and unvented roofs. Last I talked to him, his paraphrased opinion was that venting didn't make a bucket of warm spit's difference in shingle life.
AndyArguing with a Breaktimer is like mud-wrestling a pig -- Sooner or later you find out the pig loves it.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
dj Is this a cathedral ceiling with no air space ? If its cathedral and you can't get a ventilation path with soffit vents and ridge vent because of valley rafter cutting off path , then that is how you do it , with foam! If there is no air in bay to condensate then it can not create moisture!and in turn no rot ! Why does he want warranty on roofing? (shingles or Plywood) If an engineer specs this then this should be all the warranty he needs ! He is unfamiliar with the method and wants the warranty to cover his own butt if he ok's it not yours!
I agree. Foam is great stuff. I plan on spraying my entire roof deck, even though I have about 1/2 cathedral and 1/2 flat roof. But I want all my HVAC in conditioned space. Venting sucks. The inspector will eventually sign off on it, I'm just tired of playing the games to get there. They are unfamiliar with it and they are really approaching with caution. I don't really blame them, but I have lots of professionals helping me here, it's not like I'm some renegade with no backing (though I have been known to do that...)
MERC.
DJ THE THEORY IS LIKE A FREEZER TRUCK OR FREEZER WAREHOUSE , NO AIR TO CONDENSATE
dj.. if your warranty is important to you .. then you have to read the warranty terms..
Certainteed will warrant some roofs , and some of their shingles on an unvented roof, but the warranty is reduced..
i don't know about other mfr's, but i know this is true with CertainteedMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
If you aplly, install the material to manufactures specifications you are then working off of maufactures warrenty.
There is a spectacular phrase in Nat. Elec.Code called the AHJ, authority having jurisdiction, that allows the inspector to make seat of the pants calls that can become really frustrating. Warranties, UBC,UL and PE stamps ...sometimes you have to take it to their supervisor when they bull their necks up.
At least your not building a straw bale house under it.
There is usually a line in the codes about products used in construction will be used as designed and rated. There is in the NEC. I have been told there is a similar line in many building codes.Any use or application outside what the manufacturer normally specifies has to get approval of that use by the manufacturer. Sometimes they will take the word of an engineer qualified, as determined by the AHJ, to make the call.