Most of us are familiar with frameless glass shower enclosures. Each piece of glass in an enclosure has an etching listing the manufacturer and some other information. The other day I had a final inspection on a master bath. The ispector gets down on his hands and knees with a flashlight and looks at the etching on the glass. He tells me that the etching does not contain the word “tempered” which is now required by code, and that project will not pass a final inspection until the etching contains the word “tempered”. This would require fabricating new glass, removing the present enclosure and installing a new enclosure. The etching does contain a Consumer Product Safety Commision code corresponding to safety glass. I have never run into this isssue before. We have all encountered “difficult” inspectors. This guy is nothing of the sort. He is the most decent and helpful inspectors I have ever encountered. The project is in New Jersey. Has anyone ever run into this issue?
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I could be wrong but I do think code says that if an area that requires tempered glass, the glass itself must be etched with the words tempered. So the inspector is correct and inspectors across the nation this is one area they are very picky on. Just because it is safety glass does not mean it is tempered. Tempered glass is a type of safety glass as well as laminated and wired glass.
I think the only glass in a bath area that does not needed to be tempered is glass block.
I would think you are not out here but the fabricator is. I do think tempered glass can still be etched my truck windows were etched after the fact with the vin number and they are tempered.
Wallyo
Edited 1/9/2009 11:19 am ET by wallyo
Edited 1/9/2009 11:20 am ET by wallyo
Thanks for the quick respone. I understand that that safety glass can include laminated. I have never encountered an inspector specificly looking for the word tempered. The fabricator tells me that all their glass is etched "tempered" but I can read and "tempered" is nowhere on the glass. Coincidently, we replaced a window in the bathroom that is within the swing of the door and is clearly etched "tempered".
As far as etching after the fact....your truck windows are probably laminated safety glass. I do not know if tempered glass can be etched after fabrication.
The front window of a auto is laminate the side windows are tempered I just check on my truck. They were etched after the fact with the vin number ( which I am still up set over dealer add on with out asking). Tempered glass can be surface etched after the fact. Some times finding the words tempered can be tough, it should be bottom left corner but on a shower door it could be at top (door flipped). Have some one assist you holding a piece of paper on one side you with a light on the other look at all corners, a darker paper or cardboard may be of help.Wallyo
In most vehicles only the windshield is laminated. The ID's are put on the side windows. Side and back windows are tempered.They can be etched, but not as deeply as non tempered glass. But you are only trying to mark them not make an artistic expression so they only need to be minimal..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
BillAm I correct in that if tempered glass is required by code it must be etched "TEMPERED" usually with dates.Wallyo
According to my code of "the code" (2000 IRC), NO!It must be marked to the standard which it passes.Which apparently this one is..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Just did some checking the 2006 IBC says saftey glass must havea manufactures designation specifying who applied the designation, designating the type of glass and the standard with which it complies, which is visible in the finial installation.Got that from the contractors guide to the build code based on the 2006 IBC.So the question is which code is his district using.page 358http://books.google.com/books?id=idBmEH3K4KwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=2006+ibc+and+tempered+glass#PPA1,M1Can't believe the whole book is online as a previewWallyoEdited 1/9/2009 1:28 pm by wallyo
Edited 1/9/2009 1:30 pm by wallyo
Etching of vehicle windows is a great money maker for the dealers, with very, very little benefit (if any) to the car owner.
Since more people are refusing extended warranties, they've become more creative with ideas to boost profit margins on new car sales.
Agreed on that when I got my truck, which they picked up from an out of state dealer for me, it was not on there lot, and it came time for the paper work they tried to get 300.00 for the etching. I did not ask for it, they only had the truck for 24 hours. I got them down to 150.00 I think even at that I should of got up and walked out. I had no money down they went from Boise to Seattle to pick it up all on good faith, I had not signed any thing either they went and got it on my word that I would buy it. Then they try and stick me for three hundred say it will lower my insurance, called the insurance company and was told that they never heard of such a thing.You can buy a kit on line for 19.95 http://www.vinetcher.com/?gclid=COLf78X6gpgCFRk_awodJAPSYg
Etching of vehicle windows is a great money maker for the dealers, with very, very little benefit (if any) to the car owner.
5% discount at USAA!
Are you saying you get a discount on insurance.
My insurance co was not interested and its a "slick" add on like pinstrips, door edge guards, scotch guarding, paint protectant, etc.
We looked at buying a Honda minivan, out of stock had to be ordered from the factory and the dealer still wanted to add "the package"! I told him you just broke the deal!
You did what I should of done.
Are you saying you get a discount on insurance.
Yes, don't you???
Edited 1/9/2009 10:10 pm ET by klhoush
As I said my company just about laughed " a discount for what etched on your windows"
Maybe I will give them one more call.Wallyo
I guess you can't get USAA.
No I would not qualify, the company we have now is geared to teachers and is not bad.Wallyo
Teachers? Bravo!!!
Not me my wife, kudo's to her>
Different companies seem to look at different things when figuring rates and discounts..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Yes with USAA, (limited clientele). You would get disc on your comprehensive for theft prev and recovery.For those who have fought for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
what if you were to call the supplier and tell them one of the panels was not labelled appropriately? they might take care of this ..
First I would read the actual code wording. Including any local/state amendments that cover this.
I looked at the 2000IRC and it requires that glass in hazardous locations be marked with the name of the manufacture or installer and the Safety Glazing Standard that it complies with.
Later, it mentions the standard is CPSC CFR 16, Part 1201 for most applications.
Does not mention the type of safety glazing.
In fact I found this.
"The CPSC standard does not prohibit the use of ordinary annealed glass in hazardous locations
as long as it passes the appropriate impact tests, consistent with the concept of a performance
based impact test. (Thick, heavy annealed glass is likely to pass the CPSC 18-inch drop-height
and 48-inch drop-height impact tests for Category I and II locations.) ANSI Z97.1-2004 contains
an express limitation on annealed glass: “Monolithic annealed in any thickness is not considered
safety glazing material under this standard.”"
http://tinyurl.com/a3uqcv
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
I would have to believe that if the manufacturer has a specification for that product that says it is tempered glass the building department would have to accept it. We get into that in Florida with wind code and impact code windows. We need to submit the manufacturer's engineering data on the permit application and the model number verification is part of the inspection. Usually this is on file in Tallahassee and all you need is the acceptance number.
This is one of those times that I would escalate up the chain of command to the CBO but start with the documents and the inspector. Sometimes a phone call and a fax will be all you need
Yeah, go for the documentation. If you explain the situation to the manufacturer, they should be able to give you some documentation (a letter would be best) saying that the assembly was tempered. You could then provide a letter saying the referenced assembly was installed at the projects address.
We had a similar situation in Franklin Lakes NJ. Inspector did the same thing. No etching. This was omitting at the direction of the architect. Instead the manufacturer provided us with a document which detailed the specifications of each piece of glass which included that they were in fact tempered.Inspector smiled and said so many people forget to provide this and he has no choice but to fail the inspection.This was about 5 years ago. Don't know if things are different now.Frankie
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Arabella Weir as Minty Marchmont - Posh Nosh
If code says it must be on the glass then it must be on the glass a letter will not work.The reason for this is if the house is ever sold an home inspector can not walk in and say untempered glass in an area that requires it. If it is labeled tempered then it tempered, unlabeled you take it is untempered.Wallyo
But one needs to look and find out EXACTLY what the code requires.All of the references that have been give so for don't require it to be marked tempered.In fact does not require it to be tempered.Now there are many, many reasons that the inpsector might have been under the assumption that it being stamped Tempered while there is nothing like that in the code.And there is a section in the code that allows for alternate approvals so docummentation might be enough, but no guarantee.But the first things is to find out exactly what is required..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
I agree with you, but from what I read the etching must have three things: Who made it The type of glass I take that as laminated tempered etcand the Industry standard to which it adheres ie a bunch of numbers.that is the 2006 IBC, but his area may be using the ubc.The IBC also says it does not need to be etched but can be a sticker that if remove is damaged beyond reuse.Wallyo
The code says lots of stuff that inspectors don't always fully adhere to or enforce. It's been my experience that if the inspector is concerned about something, usually something that might come back on him, he or she will allow an alternate approach to meet the spirit of the code. He gets a nice letter that he can put in the file with the sign-offs and he's all set. The same letter can be shown to the home inspector.
Given the current emphasis on maximizing resources as well as the economy, it seems pretty silly to toss out a shower enclosure just because it doesn't say 'tempered' when in fact it may be.
I am not advocating tossing out the shower.A letter may work but inspector already said it must be etched.so that is out unless the code says otherwiseit could be re etched;a sticker could be placed on it not to attractive.But to me the problem seems to fall on the shoulders of the shower door supplier.One Phone call; " the door you put up did not pass inspection here is the inspectors number deal with it I paid X00.00 for this door."
I recently put a "window" in a shower. Tempered glass, of course. No markings on it at all. So I saved the receipt and taped it to the window so the inspector could see it if he wanted. Neither one of us made an issue out of it, though.
If showing him the bill doesn't work, I'd go back to the supplier and get them to resolve the matter.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
I think everyone is missing something here, but I don't know what it is.
The company I last worked for used at least 4 different shower door fabricators and I don't think I have EVER seen an etching on the glass in any install.
Never been called on it either.
Would a fabricator even think of installing non tempered?
I KNOW none of the ones I know would.
I don't know about that... I just installed 3 different Pella windows that are tempered (stair landings and window seat)
I did not look more deeply, but did not notice a 'tempered' etching at first glance...
It makes sense that this would be the standard, tho.. otherwise how can you tell?
The code is the code.
NJ is IRC 2006 w/state ammendments. (they dont require an emergency excape window from basements and maybe some other stuff)
I did not go to my truck to read my book but IRC is written by the IBC so the language is probably similar.
You need to read the code though.
Re. labeling.
Any manufacturer that does not label needs to eat the glass. (Pella windows, if not marked with the tempering info, are not tempered, no matter what)
While I agree only an idiot would use standard glass in a shower enclosure, it still needs proper labeling. I just dont know exactly what the label requires by the IRC.
Get the 2006 IRC book, read what it requires with the inspector, and make sure you have complied. If you have not, the shower door guy as got to eat the panels!
Strange--I've had countless framless doors installed in NYC and never seen anything on DOB approved prints indicating the need for a label, and never hear a peep from an inspector either.Maybe they are so common here that inspectors don't dig in, but that seems unlikely...as does it seem unlikely that the DOB would approve plans without a label called out. When I installed windows on a lotline the spec was stamped on a plate on the jamb, called out on the prints. The glass was not etched or marked, even though it was _very_ special glazing with a fire rating.
I think what it comes down to is the district, Some inspectors are told there are certain things that a job must have no questions asked. Here they are real picky on smoke detectors, and railing height. A lot of things could indicate what gets put under the scope. Did a inspector over look something and the city got sued because some one was injured? Though it would probably be hard to, it is something a city wants to avoid.Wallyo
>> I did not look more deeply, but did not notice a 'tempered' etching at first glance... <<
The labeling on the tempered windows and doors is not the easiest thing to see. You really gotta be looking for it. Some are a little easier to see, others are extremely difficut. I know that our inspectors always look for the labeling but would be surprized if they were actually reading it.
If all the mentioned ideas fail look into an etching kit. Tell them you need the stencil to read tempered. the like is above.
The etching was done after the glass had been treated. An online kit will do the job, but i would call the Glass installer and ask him to fix it as it must be up to required code, blame the inspector if you need to. Make sure all pieces are marked.
FWIW, decorative elements and labeling is done on already-tempered glass, using UV-cured inks and silkscreen.
It may be possible, with the right equipment, to field-label the panel. It may also work to remove the panel, label it appropriately in a shop that is capable, and re-install.
I am sure glad we don't have inspection here.
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
I'm thinking "tempered glass supplied by Don't smash Glass Co. 2009" Eched would do the job.
Maybe the inspector could say what he expects it to read.
Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) require that windshields are manufactured using laminated glass. Specifically, windshields have to meet AS1 requirements of ANSI Z24.1-1993 which is only possible using clear laminated glass.
At a minimum, side windows must meet AS2 requirements which can be met by either laminated or tempered glass.
At a minimum, rear windows must meet AS3 requirements which like side windows can be either laminated or tempered glass.
The primary difference between AS2 and AS3 is the level of visibility thru the glass.
By federal regulation, all "windows" in motor vehicles must be safety glass and all glass in motor vehicles must be etched with the appropriate safety information. There are no options. There should never be an insurance discount for having safety information etched into the glass in a motor vehicle since this is not something that is negotiable. You cannot legally buy or install non-safety-etched glass in a passanger motor vehicle.
Legally, the safety glazing information must be etched into the glass by the original fabricator at the time of manufacture.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As noted in an earlier post, CPSC 16CFR1201 and ANSI Z97.1-2004 apply to residental safety glazing. In order to sell residential safety glazing, fabricators have to be tested and certified that their products meet the requirements of the standards. ANSI and CPSC require separate testing, so that fabricators can be certified to either or both standards.
Both tempered and laminated glass meet the standards. Shower doors are covered specifically by CPSC standard - but not specifically by ANSI. While technically, ANSI covers windows and CPSC covers doors, shower doors, oven doors, and other applications, in general usage I don't know of anyone (manufacturer, inspector, etc) who really differentiates between them that specifically. Generally people in the industry tend to tie the two together.
Both CPSC and ANSI require permanent markings etched into the glass to identify it as safety glazing. While the ANSI standard specifically prohibits the use of a letter in lieu of the permanent etching, CPSC is a bit more ambiguous in this area since it requires that supplier's of safety glazing must also include a letter as well as permanent etching with the product - and may allow the letter without etching - but that isn't completely clear in the instruction. Recently CPSC has come out with a directive that suppliers of safety glazings must have an online site available for public inspection possibly in lieu of the letter(?).
You cannot apply the etching yourself despite the availablity of the $19.95 kit. Legally, only the original manufacturer of tempered glass can apply the safety glazing logo to the glass. Laminated logo information must be applied by the original manufacturer, but if the laminated glass is sold as cut stock to a distributor the distributor can apply a new logo to cut down pieces but the logo has to include all of the original information plus the letters "C/F" which indicates "Cut From" the original stock sheet.
If there is no logo or etching on the glass indicating that it meets the requirements of either or both of the applicable standards then the glass does not legally qualify as safety glazing. However, the inspector is not correct that it has to say "tempered", unless it is required by a local code or regulation.
Logos can be applied using lasers, sand blasters, ceramic frit, a few other options. Bottom line is that they have to be permanent.
Edited 1/10/2009 12:40 am ET by Oberon
very informative reply. Good Job As to the autos what we are talking of is an insurance discount for having Your Vehicle identification number etched on the glass to discourage theft.It seems the op is not with out an etching his just does not say tempered it does have all the other info.Wallyo
Thanks, and my bad!
Okay...that makes a lot more sense. I have honestly never heard of that, but I guess I can't really understand how it would stop a thief from stealing a car.
I would have to agree that on initial thought it feels more like a money maker for the shop than a value to the car buyer.
Edited 1/10/2009 12:12 pm ET by Oberon
The idea was popular a number of years ago.The idea is that a lot of cars are stolen for parting out. And if the parts have identifiable parts that makes it harder to sell the chop shops. So less incentive for the theft..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Makes sense, but I can't imagine trying to list the VIN on every part in a car.
But, hey, insurance companies have folks who make big bucks to come up with these sorts of ideas.
No, the the windows are best seen and thus a warning.And if a door get sold with the glass shows where it came from..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Again, makes sense
thanks
It's not on every part, but the big pieces & most of the sheet metal too.
Remember the Oklahoma City bombing? They found a VIN on (I think) the rear end and tracked it back to the rental company.
Joe H
Go back to manufacturer and ask for paper that will satify your BI that the glass is appoved.
Or replace the glass.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
I've, also, used documentation that my supplier got from the manufacturer.http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
FRAMLESS SHOWER DOOR
I WORK IN THE GLASS AND MIRROR BUSINESS. WE INSTALL SHOWER DOORS ON A DAILY BASIS. WHEN WE MANUFACTURE SHOWER DOORS THEY ARE AUTOMATICCALLY TEMPERED IT'S A LAW. PUTTING A LOGO ON THE DOOR HAS NEVER BEEN OUR POLICY. THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN DONE BY REQUEST OF THE CUSTOMER. WE HAVE ALWAYS SUPPLIED EACH CUSTOMER WITH A NOTICE OF CERTIFICATION, CERTIFING THAT THE GLASS IS TEMPERED AND IN COMPLIANCE WITH STATE CODE REGULATIONS. YESTERDAY I RECIVED A PHONE CALL FROM A CUSTOMER WHO CAN NOT GET A C/O FOR HIS RESIDENCE BECAUSE HIS SHOWER DOOR DOES NOT HAVE A LOGO ON IT. HE CAN NOT PASS INSPECTION. IN ALL THE YEARS I HAVE BEEN DOING THIS I HAVE NEVER ENCOUNTERED THIS PROBLEM. I TRYED TO JUST FAX OVER THE CERTIFICATION TO THE BUILDING INSPECTOR. WELL THE INSPECTOR CALLED THIS MORRNING AND SAID THAT HE WILL NOT EXCEPT THAT CERTIFICATION.THE WORD TEMPERED AND THE FEDERAL REGULATION CODE MUST BE ETCHED INTO THE GLASS . WELL I AM NOT TAKING DOWN THIS DOOR AND LEAVING MY CUSTOMER WITHOUT A SHOWER DOOR FOR A WEEK OR MORE JUST TO ETCH A LOGO ON IT. IT'S NOT FAIR TO THE CUSTOMER AND IT'S NOT FAIR TO ME. FOR YEARS A SIMPLE PEICE OF PAPER STATING THE GLASS WAS TEMPERED WAS SUITABLE. NOW IN A BLINK OF AN EYE IT'S NOT. I AM SENDING ONE OF MY INSTALLERS OUT TO ETCH THE PROPER LOGO IN THE GLASS. I CALLED INSPECTOR TO MAKE SURE THAT WAS EXCEPTABLE AND HE SAID YES, AS LONG AS IT SAYS
TEMPERED GLASS
CFR1201
ANSI Z 97.1-2004
Shirley
If you'd be so kind.
Hit the caps lock button and insert a comma or period every so often.
thanks.
Shirley you jest.
I'M NOT JESTING AND DON'T CALL ME SURELY.