How many Breaktimers can report that they live in an area where to build, permits are not required?
If you live and work in a big metro area, or in some beautiful vacationland that, while not densely populated, gets a lot of seasonal visitors, I’m sure you have permitting and inspection. But if you are way out there in flyoverland, my question is directed to you.
We’re in the northern Adirondack mountain region of far upstate New York, and our county, with an area of about 1900 square miles, has a population of only 38,000.
Each township within the county is self-governing as far as building permits and inspection and control go, and some of those townships have so little going on, economically, that nothing exists like an inspector or officer for doing permit issuance. Thus permits are not required.
If a township has some prosperity in its property tax base, then it is likely that permits are required. Many townships with good lake access or mountain views, and with villages with services located within, experienced housing booms during the bubble and its runup in vacation home buying and building, and thus require permits.
In our town, which requires permits, the inspector rarely if ever goes onto a job, and the great majority of stuff gets built without ever having been visited. Visits, when they occur, are very informal, with nothing going on except for a little conversation. Plans need to be submitted for permit issuance, but the only checks that are made are for required signoffs (NY seal req’d for 1500 sf or more), and to see size and areas, which are used to calculate permit fees.
I’ve been in on some permit pulls in nearby townships and the process is even simpler.
Before coming here, we lived in Indiana’s NE corner, and permitting there was done at the county level. We experienced the more typical succession of jobsite inspections, and plan review was done more rigorously. While I knew of no IN counties that did not require permits, the heavily agricultural counties of Ohio that bordered the part of Indiana where we were, required no permits at all. We knew plenty of Ohio folks that built whatever they wanted, without any government oversight or paperwork required.
What is it like out in the farmlands of the midwest? The sparsely populated areas in the northern great plains?
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When I lived in Colorado twenty years ago, you needed a permit for everything anyplace. You got it from the municipality if inside, and from the county if not.
The county guys were actually harder than a lot of the muni guys, partly for the reasons you mentioned.. I think it was UBC back then, plus some local upgrades for snow loads. There were places in the county where you could not put a mobile home because they applied snow load requirements or 70-120# that could not be met with a mobile. I think the main reason tho was dsevelopeers who did not want to see them down the road from their million dollar views.
Here in Maine, the State spells out the basic requirements. Everyone who builds anything over 120 sq ft needs a land use permit. These have more to do with where you put the thing and ground water protection/erosion control than they do with anything structural.
Any dwelling unit also requires a separate plumbing permit too.
Then another level of permiting is the IRC that applies in larger municipalities.. The state requires that an incorporated muni with 2500 residents or more must adopt and enforce a recommended building code.
One interesting thing for me, is that we are exempt from that here on the island because we have only about 700 year round full time residents. But the housing stock will handle up to about 6000 people in summer, so the number of dwelling units is capable of the need for such permitting and inspection in theory.
We see an average of 10-11 new homes per year, so it would certainly be a part time job. The CEO works 1-1/2 days a week now on the land use permits and inspections.
Can't recall for sure, but when I was back in FL, you needed a permit to take a whiz I think.
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You're right Piffin. In my areas of Florida, the threshold is $1,000 job value and then you need a permit so pretty much anything you do thats worth doing needs a permit!
Plumbing and electrical only in my part of Colorado. County only, the city has permits.. Some talk about getting a minimal permitting requirement on the county but that has been met with a lot of resistance.
Well, in Texas, there's two things going on. Until last year, you only had permits in those incorporated cities large enough to afford a BI and office for it.
State changed that to require three inspections (pre-pour on foundation; before drywall close up; and a final). They then created a way that just about any licensed engineer or architect (and most HI) could pay a fee and be a state-certified inspector. Anybody else has to take the ICC plans-examiner test, then can pay the fee.
The "other" thing, though, is that there's not really anyone out there in the counties and smaller munis to "require" the inspection. Nothing really out there to have the inspector be separate from designer or builder. So the only real enforcement is by lenders.
And, possibly more to your point, out of the "big enough" towns, there's no real requirement for needing comprehensive plans or qualified designers or the like.
Winds up being chicken-egg-chicken in all but about 50 of 254 counties. No one expects an inspection, so they don't miss what they've never seen. The builders "have alwasy done it that way" so that's what they do.
It's dumb, but there it is. What's goofy is when a "large-enough" muni does it's ETJ 9extra-territorial jursidiction) over county areas (this is a preamble to potential annexation). What the residents of that are learn, suddenly, that all the City rules suddenly apply. Which causes no end of wailing and moaning and gnashing of teeth, especially for those who had not built yet. Permits, plans inspection and approval, fees, forms and delay, oh my! Then your neighbor wandres over ans shows off the box top he used to build on his land and laughs at you.
So, mostly "good practice" is whatever the trade contractors "do."
How many Breaktimers can report that they live in an area where to build, permits are not required?
When I lived in Montville, CT 30 years ago, the inspector stopped to see what I was doing with the new foundation/slab attached to my house. I told him that I was building a shop.
He said, "You know, you need a permit?"
I said, "No, I didn't know that. So what do I do to get one?"
He said, "Go get some paper, and draw what you plan to build." He waited while I got some paper.
While sitting together at my picnic table, I drew my shop, complete with dimensions, and I handed it to him. Then he filled out the permit, I gave him a check made out to the Town of Montville, and he advised me to post the permit, along with a copy of the plans on the shop's new wall.
Gary W
gwwoodworking.com
They don't do it like that there any more. I live in East Lyme, and was looking at a place to buy in Oakdale. Went to the town hall, wanting to know what it would take to build a shed, attached to the house. The zoning/building officials were still spouting permitting prereqs, including engineering requirements, when I left. It's become somebodys empire, as is often the case in these towns.
Not that there's anything wrong with that....
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
Frankly, I think there are many things wrong with that.
BTW, I lived in Oakdale, on Birch Point Trail, on Lake Oxoboxo.Gary W
gwwoodworking.com
The house we were looking at in Oakdale, is south, on the East Lyme border.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
Edited 9/23/2009 7:56 pm ET by NickNukeEm
Beautiful area! I have friends that live in Salem.Gary W
gwwoodworking.com
Worked on a house in rural WI along the Mississippi back in 1993. IIRC the contractor pulled a permit but I don't ever remember seeing an inspector on site during the foundation or framing for that matter. I think the only reason the house was built to code was because it was designed by a registered architect. In situations where permits or inspections are nonexistent I I suppose there would be a lot of back country stuff going on like what I've seen in the mountains of NC.
ted,
any new dwelling in Wisconsin is going to need a permit now as of a few years back. Rural areas that have had no inspections, now have a list of private inspectors to hire.
Any cities (populations of 20k or more) I have worked in have had permits and inspections on all work, and the surrounding townships too. very different interpretations and emphasis on what gets enforced however.
Remodeling in rural northern Wisconsin is a free-for-all as far as I can tell. State sanitary permits and that is about it. most places seem to require a permit to get the tax revenue. I can permit a cabin as an "Accessory structure" and not have any inspections or design requirements, yet someone could live there year-round. I am guessing that varies with each county up there though.
I seriously doubt there is any rural enforcement of the requirements for licensing, and continuing education hours before getting permits either. And how about the lead paint rules???? And the new Wisconsin Dept of Health, April 2009 "everything material you disturb other than wood, metal, or glass has to be considered a "hot" asbestos sample until you prove otherwise?" rules. Bwah ha ha ha ha !!!!!!!!!!!!
Bowz
Vermont goes town by town. Ours has no permitting or inspection. The state has rather stringent septic requirements including permintting and inspection. However, it is up to the individuals to tell the state what their doing since the town won't. We often travel from here to Lewis county and the straightest line runs through Big Moose and past the Stillwater resevoir in Adirondacks. Some of the dwellings out there look a lot like the stuff built around here! Wood stoves in school buses...yep.
50 miles into Ohio from your former home-county inspections in Lucas and Wood-pretty stringent-plumbing electrical and structure. A few of the outlying (to the west) towns are covered by inspectors from the above counties. Some municipalities share inspectors-for instance, Maumee goes west a couple-Swanton Holland and a couple others. Same goes for Wood county, goes south to Findlay.
What happens in Defiance, Napoleon and Archibold......?
However, many smaller jobs-Kitchen/bath remodels for instance go along w/out a permit.
In several cases the local towns have a permit process to retrieve funds and tax dollars from those doing the work.
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Oregon requires permits and inspections.
There are some counties in eastern Or. that I don't know how it is handled as they are very , very sparsely populated. Electrical here is State inspected , not county or city.
Washington is the same as far as I know.
Larimer County Colorado.
Ft Collins and Loveland have their own municipal processes. FC is very difficult to get a GC License. Loveland is Somewhat easier, esp on the commercial side.
Larimer County itself has had permits and inspectors for as long as I've been around, (10 yrs), and it is just as difficult to build there as it is in the cities.
By difficult I mean the permitting process is arduous, engineering requirements are taken seriously, and time spent in line at the office is considerable. The inspectors all know their job, and for the most part, are fair.
Larimer County just enacted a Contractor Licensing program, which has a lot of people in an uproar, but I like it, since I qualify.
Hi Gene,
Here in our area of NC as long as it is 12'x12' or smaller and can be moved, although they request you anchor it.....doesn't matter what it is, what or who it's for, nor does it matter how much $......you're good to go without a permit.
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This county (Union Cty, Illinois) has called for permits for "double wides" and septic systems, but requires no building permits or inspections for anything else.Contractor's have no license requirements only have to publish in the local paper if using an assumed name business. Otherwise the only qualification is a truck and tools...maybe a magnetic logo sign, too!City has some zoning ordinances and a building permit for $20 issued by a "retired' person that checks the "drawings" for setbacks. No one ever shows at the site after that. No contractor license, either.Homeowner beware! Lots of building means & methods errors that will not be known till it is too late.To the north 20 miles in a college town (Southern Illinois University) there is a rigorous permit and inspection protocol as well as licensing/registration of contractors.I work both areas....Permits and inspections can be a hassle, but it sure leads to a better quality of structures and community. Working unrestrained is a nice freedom, but there is no protection for the ignorant/innocent clients..................Iron Helix
My county in Illinois has no zoning, no permits required. they don't even want to adopt a comprehensive plan which only SUGGESTS without any force of law what should go on in certain areas of the county. Various incorporated areas have other requirements and of course, even without zoning and permitting there are still state regs that have to be followed. I think a septic has to be installed by a licensed plumber and he knows he has to get the health department to sign off on it and you can't errect hog confinements within x feet of neighboring property. So even without regs there are still regs to follow.
As I have told people in the county, zoning isn't just to restrict you from building something, its also there to protect you from things being built that you don't want. Nobody wants to be told what to do with their property but everybody wants to tell their neighbor what they can do with their property.
MO has no state wide codes or contractor licensing.Many of the larger communities have adopted codes. And while some of the some areas do have contractors licensing most, only require "business licenses", if anything.Now I live in a city of about 1100 in the Kansas City area.When I built my house in 1979 the Development Company issued the building "permit". And while they did list the UBC code their main concern was with setbacks and that they house was not covered by tar paper or tin. The development was started in 1928 with a lake and summer cabins and that is what is in the C&R's. The Development Co operates the lake and roads and functions as a HOA, but it is much different than most HOA's that I see people complain about. The local FD did some inspection, but I think that it was more of a courtesy fire inspection rather then a full building inspection.Then the city, which was started in 1965, but not doing much for a long time. They took over building permits and inspections about 10 years ago. And they muddled back and forth with it for a number of years. One time I was talking to the mayor and he commented about some serious structural changes that new owner my next door neighbor was doing. He said that I hope that they know what they are doing. It is all interior and we don't have any control over it.A couple of years ago my other next door neighbor did a remodel with some major changes, but taking out a could of rooms and walls and makeing a large kitchen family room. At that time the city was back to using the FD for inspections. The "inspectors uncle owned that house for a number of years and he talked about that rather than inspecting.Currently they have building inspector, part time. I think that he works as a BI in a near by town.I asked if I need a permit to tear down a deck - no, and to replace a roof, again the answer was no. But the roofer needed a "license", which I got.In the meantime I had some one take down the deck, replace some damaged siding, and painting. I asked at the office what the frost depth was. And he did not know and had me call the BI, but I don't think that I told him the address. Anyway the next day I was walking around a car comes up and asked if I was the HO. He said that he saw me at the mail box and saw the deliver of shingles. Then noticed the new siding.Said that I needed a BP for that work and although two completely different projects. Listed the roofing contractor on the application and got the BP for $25. Roofing starts tomorrow and the siding and painting is done and that guy gone. So far the BI has not looked at the siding, as far as I know.Found out that BP are not needed window replace, but is for not required for replacement windows. That makes no sense at all.In the next day I will get a permit for the new deck. Now that does require real details and I assume inspections. We will see what happens.BTW, I replaced the furnace/AC 2 months ago and did not bother to get a permit. And a couple of weeks ago I finished replacing some outdoor stairs on another part of the house and did not bother to get one..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
this really need to be seperated as no permit or not build to code. even if there is no permit, all construction needs to be built to code.
We all know that hijackers step in where angels fear to tread, and this thread is no exception.
I titled it "Building without a permit," and thought that I laid out in the OP that I wanted stories from those with experience in these vast areas of the U.S. where this is done.
But, in stepped those with axes to grind about code noncompliance. Can't be helped.
So here is mine. The most egregious code violations that occur in our various local jurisdictions, where Adirondack great camp and twiggy define the preferred style of housing, are those that involve stairs and railings. With twig and log railings, and half-log open-tread stairs, we've got IRC violations everywhere.
But no one cares a hoot.
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
But no one cares a hoot.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Should they?
whose code?
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In the rural areas of Northern Central Missouri there are no permits required.
You can build whatever you want however you want. You can put mobile homes or shipping containers. You can build underground houses. Anything.
You can put in septic systems, lagoon systems, or just a pipe that goes "over the hill"
I like it like this, I have not seen any egregious violations, we don't have a rash of people being injured or illed from substandard construction. It probably won't last long but like other posters have described about some areas where code enforcement is new it probaly won't be very stringent.