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Much as we hate to interfere with the free exchange of ideas, we’ve recently had to remove three threads from the forum because of nasty personal attacks. As our Content Policy states, Breaktime is for construction-related postings, not abusive displays of one-upmanship or off-color comments. Difference of opinion, civilly and respectfully expressed, is the life blood of a forum, but when it turns vicious it poisons the well for all.
I’ve been reading Breaktime for several months now and have been impressed by the expertise of the contributors and your generosity in helping others solve their building problems. Breaktime is a construction manual that writes itself, a great source of information for pros and amateurs alike. Let’s keep it the best building board on the Web.
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but also ... propriety not political correctness. There are important social aspects of the industry; the participants are not construction automatons. A censor has a tough job treading lightly.
*Hi Andrew,There is a live audio site(my other gig) that passes 400 megabytes of info PER 24 HOUR PERIOD.The owners and users patrol it like hawks and the crap going through there is nearly nil.If one's post gets cut and it is valid there is always the possibility of re-posting with better language or more neutral point of view.Check out Ruth, thanks for the resource and don't y'all lose any sleep over cutting questionable material.Good health, Weogo Reed
*OK. Define "crap"? "Questionable"?What a waste of manpower, patrolling so no one gets offended. Look at AOL's numerous foibles. I manage to turn a deaf ear to the offensive, personally, and my ear may be less deaf than other's. As an adult, I'd rather hear what's happening than hear what some patronizing censor decides I can handle. This is not a Victorian tea party, and flamers burn out on their own anyway.P.S. Isn't "crap" a vulgarity? Shouldn't your message be deleted? See how this goes downhill quickly?
*Speaking for myself, please don't worry too much about anyone offending my sensibilities. Like I've said before, its a real world.
*I agree Ruth, that a good topic can deteriorate quickly, if personal attacks are allowed to be posted. A little light hearted ribbing, does not constitute attacks, right?Verbal bashing tends to overide the debate and steers the conversation into a meaningless, personal, verbal warfare zone. The better builder doesn't win, but the better wit might. The entire debate then becomes flawed, and irrelevant. Thanks for your vigilance,Blue
*I agree 100% with Blue "I agree Ruth, that a good topic can deteriorate quickly, if personal attacks are allowed to be posted. A little light hearted ribbing, does not constitute attacks, right? Verbal bashing tends to overide the debate and steers the conversation into a meaningless, personal, verbal warfare zone. The better builder doesn't win, but the better wit might. The entire debate then becomes flawed, and irrelevant." And thanks for your vigilance also,Copycat,Jack : )
*Damn, I missed it. I've got to go with Andrew and Lonecat on this one.I think the people that post on this site can handle any hecklers. They want attention, so just ignore them. I can't condone censorship, but then, it is your house.
*I'm surprized that whole threads, rather than specific posts, have been removed. But finding out that censorship is occurring explains to me why this group appears more civil than most.I don't agree with Andrew that there's evidence of a "patronizing censor" or "Victorian" sensibilities at work here. Instead, I see the people who pay for this forum trying to keep the discussion polite. I wish that our national media exercised the same restraining hand, instead of giving every addle-brained malcontent a national podium.There's a difference between forceful and hotly-contested differences of opinion, and mud-wrestling. I don't see that FH would have anything to gain from censoring mere differences of building practices.But, being a thorough, ACLU-supporting, freedom-of-speech type, I can't help but be a LITTLE bothered by an invisible hand of censorship. Why not just remove offensive posts--not threads--and put them in a special, viewable folder. This folder could be viewed but not posted to. That way, we could be sure that controversial building practices were not being censored.That last sentence is supposed to be ironic, for those who are a little, um, slow.Jim
*I'm always a lot mellower on Saturday than during the week so I have decided that ,on the other hand, I am mighty grateful for this site and you-alls daily input so I don't want to bite the webmaster's hand. Go ahead and shield me from harsh language and acrimony, if you must Ruth.
*Yes, Jim, I let my silly rhetoric get away from me. I also agree that deleting entire threads on the theory they've been poisoned is a bit odd. But I share others' annoyance at the heavy-handness of the editors in reorganizing this (frequently) and doubt ANYONE needs to be reminded that bickering is inappropriate (like, duh). The people who do it in particular are not going to be swayed by this reminder; the attitude seems to be "HE started it by disagreeing with me like that" or "well I'm not what she's talking about."This group is NOT more civil than most BECAUSE OF censorship. Deleting threads is a newer thing, and is happening more and more lately as FH tries to spiffy up the place -- my worry is, where the heck is this all headed? The group's civility is due to the collective effort of the quality core contributors here, who are serious-minded about their work and have a lot of good stuff to say. I like just lurking and watching discussion develop. I've noticed that adolescent-minded visitors who know little and flame much get bored quickly and wander off elsewhere.Entire threads vanishing without prior notice or even acknowledgement is disturbing. (See, I didn't even say "Orwellian.") I'm all for politeness and work hard to adhere to it -- but that doesn't make me agreeable! If this were a gov't operation, such editing would be illegal. Since it is private, it is not, heck they could drop the board altogether, or even discriminate against certain people by gender, religion or race (maybe renaming the board "Political Homebuilding"). But the First Amendment speech clause, for all its weirdness, is still a good guide for social order; forcibly silencing people usually just inflames them all the more. The good people, who mostly have thick skins anyway (these are CONTRACTORS after all) will get fed up with the interference, leaving the board to the nasties. Ironically, trying to make FH better could make FH much worse.Totally randomly, I'm not an ACLU supporter in some areas; I think they're terrific in others; maybe they could allocate their resources differently (they do a lot of tremendous civil rights work that no one ever hears about). I guess it's that the ACLU can seem rather ... condescending (there's that word again!) -- we're right and that's that. I disagree with the politics of the organization policymakers while admiring much of the work done by the rank and file, some of it the most monumental litigation in this country's history.Jim, I like your mudwrestling idea for certain individuals (no weapons allowed). Could we live broadcast this over the 'Net?
*I don't see a need to remove the entire thead, either. Maybe by moving the individuals posts into a flame box, the authors would see the error in their ways, and maybe re-word the message in a more civil tone.If you want to enter into a full fledged, un-moderated flamewar, visit Alt.building.construction on your favorite newserver.already cooked enough,Blue"Where there's a will, I want to be in it."
*. . . ohhh pullease!!!b Gag me with a spoon (also Frank Zappa)
*Watch it buster! I'm ... starting ... to get ... very ... angry!!! No kill, I promised the judge, no kill. Must not kill. Must not kill. Killing bad.Where the heck did I leave the acetylene flamethrower?Hey, i like this delete feature! Just leave 'em hanging.
*I would just as soon see no holds barred, and trust to the common sense of the participants to shoot down the obvious idiots. A little difference of opinion never hurt anyone. Now I'm wondering which threads have been removed and if i missed anything good.
*I have been here for about a year and haven't notice much, if any censorship being practiced here. As one of the major players of the most recent "mud-war", I don't see the value in any of the posts by myself or Fred Lugano where we attacked each other. There are no winners only losers in exchanges of this type. Also, since it had very little to do with "Fine Home Building", removing it doesn't seem that big of a deal, so, why make it one?What does trouble me is the lack of Lugano's presence now. Lugano's posts, for the most part where always helpful except when he moved a little to the right. But, we are all guilty of this sometimes! I for one have learned much from him, I just disagreed with his position on FG. The loss of Fred Lugano to FHB would be great indeed.Joseph FuscoView Image
*Is "censorship" bad? Sometimes... If I post a thread saying I like Marvin Windows and the web guru drops it because Anderson underwrites the forum, that's bad.If I get into a petty argument with another and a thread is full of nothing but insults and profanity, by deleting that thread would the web guru be guilty of censorship? If so, is that censorship bad for the board? Please, no "foot in the door, they'll start simple and grow..." arguments.How about someone posts a thread about hemming skirts here instead of the sewing forum? By deleting that is it censorship? If you say "no" because sewing has nothing to do with FHB, what does petty personal slander have to do with FHB? (Yes, I know, a LOT on the job site!) Can't that be eliminated as well? Sure, there are legalities, but I'm referencing common sense behaviour. My twisted view on it, anyway.Hey, the flaming arguments are funny in a pathetic sort of way, it shows the true personality (or lack thereof) of some participants. However, on the same note, no argument or personal attack will ever be resolved on this forum, because once the chests get all puffed out, almost as far as the beer-bellies, there's no stopping some folks. Take it off-line, to your own Email, resolve your differences, then come back to business.There will always be an occasional flare-up, we need those to ensure that the blood is still flowing. Occasionally though, the flare-ups turn into a full blown 5-alarm fire. I don't care if the web guru puts them out or lets them burn. I'll get upset if lack of censorship begins to reduce the quality of the information passed on this forum. If the flaming drives participants away, I consider that more of a crime then deleting said posts. I've had several people Email me direct with what they consider to be "stupid" questions, because they feel if they post such a "stupid" question they'll get ridiculed. Should they be stronger? Maybe, but there are all kinds of personalities out there. You never know which one of them is going to have the golden nugget solution to your problem. Scare him or her off and there goes your solution. Unfortunately, I don't have the foresight to not post this...Either way, I trod on...tool belt buckled and Guinness in hand...Hey, andrew, I ordered Newcastle for next month!
*Joe, is that you writing or someone logging in under your name? UUhhh, that's a joke.I wrote and posted #11 without benefit of reading your #10. I agree with your post completely. Excellent job.
*I thought the purpose of these forums were to exchange information about the construction industry.Mainly for the "obvious idiots" to submit questions or problems they may be having with home building or repair.When I first came on to this board,I thought it was real helpful,with good feedback.Now, I seldom come here anymore, because I don't care for the"I'm right,you're wrong" attitudes,or the "this is the best and only way to do it"belief.Opinions are what these forums are based on,if members of the "FHB club" can't accept other contributors opinions or ways of doing things,then maybe they should start their own chat site.It seems to me that this forum site has begun to turn into just that(a chat site for the "club" members).Not only has Fred not responded lately,but I too will probably not participate much anymore to this site(not that it matters to you guys,since I obviously don't spend all day here,thus excluding me from the mainstream "pros".In the meantime,I'll be off to other sites where we don't "shoot down the obvious idiots".
*maj,Take a deep breathe, and take a break, you deserve it...And when you're ready....b You'll be back,Jack : ) )(
*THANKS JOE!!!!!THE POSTS THAT WERE REMOVED WERE LIKE A SPLINTER IN YOUR FINGER, THE LONGER YOU LEAVE IT THERE THE MORE IT FESTERS, PULL IT OUT AND THE FINGER WILL HEAL. WE'VE STARTED TO HEAL THE BOARD NOW . FREDDY L IT SURE WOULD BE NICE TO HAVE YOU BACK. BILL
*Andrew,Probably the only difference in our opinions is not "whether mud-wrestling," but "where?" I think we both agree that mud wrestling--or any other form of fake wrestling--should not be banned or censored; but should it be included in the high school wrestling program, lest someone complain of censorship?Your point is well-taken that the group is not necessarily civil "because" of censorship.And we shouldn't confuse Sean's seeming desire to change the rules-of-appearance every 27 hours with "censorship". I agree with Joe Fusco (I think it was), who said he hadn't noticed any particular removals. But I haven't been visiting this site as long as many of you apparently have.And I wasn't aware of Joe and Fred's apparent battle. But I wonder if our censor would be willing to cut a little more slack for people with proven track records. I think it's fun and even rewarding to see worthies go after each other, as opposed to the ranting of the nitwits and never-wazzes. Mongo, I agree with most of what you say, but wonder if your fear of product-censorship is even remotely a cause for concern. Do you imagine that Andersen, for instance, would even TRY to have an "exclusive" advertizing contract w/ FH? Or that FH would even DREAM of accepting or proposing such an idiotic idea? But I couldn't agree more that "lack of censorship might reduce the quality" of the forum. But, as I said before: put the removed posts in a flame folder. Then, just as you can find mud wrestling somewhere on the cable if you want it, all the flames will be there and safe and self-contained.maj, I wonder which threads gave you the idea that this was a "i'm right/you're wrong" kind of a place? Again, I haven't been visiting very long, and have limited interests, but I've always been impressed at the courtesy and give/take attitudes. Just went through all 40 or so CAD posts, and found lots of basic disagreements on what was "best," but no attacks, questioning of intelligence, etc. (By the way, has anyone found a way--perhaps w/ emulator--to get good use of Home Architect on a Mac?)One final note: It would be nice if Ruth Dobsevageposted her thoughts/response on what has been said by all here.Jim-----------------Boundary: In politics, the imaginary line between two nations, separating the imaginary rights of one from the imaginary rights of the other. Ambrose Bierce
*Jim,A lucid composition, most unlike the usual diatribe. My complements. This was not long at all.Joseph FuscoView Image
*Jim, ((Mongo, I agree with most of what you say, but wonder if your fear of product-censorship is even remotely a cause for concern.))It's not that I have a fear of "product-censorship", I was simply trying to give an obvious example of the type of deletions that would be bad for the forum.
*Dudes and dudettes , I AM afraid of any censorship (Jesse Helmes is mah sanatah), but where the hell's that cable station with mud wrestling?
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Much as we hate to interfere with the free exchange of ideas, we’ve recently had to remove three threads from the forum because of nasty personal attacks. As our Content Policy states, Breaktime is for construction-related postings, not abusive displays of one-upmanship or off-color comments. Difference of opinion, civilly and respectfully expressed, is the life blood of a forum, but when it turns vicious it poisons the well for all.
I’ve been reading Breaktime for several months now and have been impressed by the expertise of the contributors and your generosity in helping others solve their building problems. Breaktime is a construction manual that writes itself, a great source of information for pros and amateurs alike. Let’s keep it the best building board on the Web.