I could sure use some suggestions on a built-in book case I am starting to build for a customer. I am wanting to do something different in regards to finishing the finish for the project. Normally I build the things in place with all the components, trim, caulk, etc… Then brush paint the latex then the water based poly over this. I learned the hard way that paper products stick to latex without a clear finish over the paint. Maybe I should be using something besides the latex and water based poly, tips?
I just purchased a HVLP sprayer. The other question is if you are spraying how do you accomplish this prior to installing the pieces? I can spray the carcass and face frames prior to install but what do you do about caulking the parts like edges and various trim pieces while installing in the home? For instance, the edge of the cabinet to the wall. I like it to be tight and look like part of the house. The same with the book case partitions and the walls. I like to hide nail holes, etc…. If the piece is pre-sprayed in the shop and you install this how do you touch up all these areas and it flows together? There is a difference in appearance from spraying to brushing. Basically what is your technique?
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Thanks!
Semper Fi
“To be young and a conservative, you have no heart”
“To be old and a liberal, you have no mind”
Winston Churchill
“Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don’t have that problem.”
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985
Replies
Is there a reason you wouldn't mask things off and spray it after installation? We usually do.
I don't like water based poly very much. But lacquers (the best) are getting hard to come by, and like you said, latex leaves a tacky finish. We used the deft lacquer in spray cans for the last built in, but that was over bare wood.
I guess I could spray after install but was worried about odors and over sprays to the home, wall, ceilings, floors, etc....Semper Fi
"To be young and a conservative, you have no heart"
"To be old and a liberal, you have no mind"
Winston Churchill
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985
We spend a lot of time taping, masking and basically building a booth with plastic. But I think its worth it for the level of finish you can achieve.
Treat every person you meet like you will know them the rest of your life - you just might!
My suggestion is o use a w/b poly. Jeff jewitt is now selling enduro which was bought out by general Finishes. I swear by this stuf. You will have virtually no oder in the house and it dries quickly and very hard. Enduro is rated as a exterio finish. They also have a crosslinker you can ad to make it more water and scratch resistant..I would , not knowing where your piece is going to be installed, spray it in place. A good hvlp can have its fan dialed down to 3/4" or so.I would caulk first then mask. then spray. Oh yea with the enduro I sand to 150-180, wet to raise the grain (dont know what mat'l the piece is made out of, let dry sand to knock dow te raised grain,then use a good w/b sanding sealer ( I use enduros of course) sand spray a build coat, sand and spay the finish coat.remember when spraying with w/b you need o use a n&n se up for thick mat'l. Mine is a 807 aircap .761 nozzle with a 1.5 mm needle.if you call Jeff jewitt he will tell you exactly what you need. I hope this helps.
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Hey Sancho, My first thought was what you said. The w/b poly, over color. I also looked at the acrylic by Enduro. What exactly is that? They had a enduro clear acrylic that was high gloss. I was hoping I could spray something like that and not have to put a clear coat. Will acryilc yellow and would paper products stick to it?Semper Fi
"To be young and a conservative, you have no heart"
"To be old and a liberal, you have no mind"
Winston Churchill
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985
you can get it in various colors pretinted or you can use a w/b color rght over it. w/b products dont yellow to my knowledge. ive used transtints and love them easy to se. but like i said give Jef a call with th specifics and he can hook ou up. even wih advice the right N&N set up for your needs.he also sells target products which i hear are pretty good oo. i havent used them but its Ive heard. but enduro is about all i use and love it. Oh yea I think the acrylic is what hey call their poly
View Image Official Jeff Buck Memorial Tagline "
I used the Target in my kitchen - great stuff. Got the HVLP gun and finish from Jeff and I second/third/whatever everyone else has said here.
My biggest challenge was getting the hang of the spraying. Finding the right combo of volume and fan and speed to get a consistent 1-2 mil coat was tough (take notes as you practice!). Also finding the right setup for the flat spraying vs. the edges so you don't get build-up at the edges.
I got pretty good at spraying all the doors and drawer fronts, but had a real problem getting into the one case I had to spray (most were built with pre-finished plywood so no need to spray). I have a gravity-feed gun and had a really hard time getting into the corners, under the shelves, etc. Maybe with a bookcase it will be easier - my china cabinet is 18" deep, with fixed shelves so I had to get the gun into the space and kept running into things and having a hard time knowing how to start and stop the spray.
I totally agree about the results when sprayed. I'm planning to do a desk son that will be painted and you've got me thinking... All I'm saying is: practice!
Some of the problems you have with the gravity cup is one reason I bought a remote cup with spray gun. I suppose I can get into areas and not have to worry about the problem of no paint when I pull the trigger. :-) As you said practice.......Semper Fi
"To be young and a conservative, you have no heart"
"To be old and a liberal, you have no mind"
Winston Churchill
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985
I wonder if it would be possible to wipe on some finish in the tough spots, like inside corners. Ever try that Target finish as a wipe on?
I wouldn't try wipe on; the stuff I use does brush though. Not a bad idea for the corners. I wouldn't want to do big areas - mostly I brush edging on plywood and drawer edges (both made with pre-finished plywood). It dries so fast you need to use a really good brush and just flow it on - doesn't react well to trying to brush it out.
How about the shelf life of that water based? My experience has been with the Minwax polycrylic water based and it wasn't durable, dried too fast (brushing - I understand we're talking spraying here), and didn't last long in the can.
The Target WB pre-cat conversion varnish has a claimed shelf live of a year in the can; I've gotten to 18 months with no problems.
My vote of confidence is laquer .
In and out .
Spray after complete installation and finished in a few hours.
Tim
Edited 2/1/2007 9:03 am by Mooney
I like the idea of spraying inside due to the fact I can complete the project and not worry about messing up the finish. Scew, nail, caulk, then spray........Semper Fi
"To be young and a conservative, you have no heart"
"To be old and a liberal, you have no mind"
Winston Churchill
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985
We used to have a guy named Goldhiller here that gave some great advice about such things. He turned me on to the Ultima Spray Lacquer found here:
http://www.targetcoatings.com
It's a water based clear topping that one can easily spray indoors. I've used this with my HVLP to spray cabinet doors, carcasses, trim, doors, etc. It gives a really nice smooth finish that holds up extremely well.
A different formulation was recently tested in FWW.
This Spray Lacquer can even be brushed - with a fine brush. It dries quickly. Very quickly. No smell. Your client will not even know it was sprayed inside.
I use a utility knife blade to scrape betwixt coats instead of sanding.
This will burn (melt) into an existing nitro finish without having to strip. Really nice.
I have your link in my favorites and will look at it when I get a chance, ThanksSemper Fi
"To be young and a conservative, you have no heart"
"To be old and a liberal, you have no mind"
Winston Churchill
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985
The guy you need to speak with is Jeff Jewitt, who is the principal at Homestead Finishing.
Homestead sells a large array of good HVLP gear, and they sell a lot of premium waterborne coatings, including the Target line.
Jeff is a contributor to Fine Homebuilding and Fine Woodworking, and Taunton has published his books on spray finishing.
The Homestead site has an excellent forum for discussing spray finishing (and brushing also), but Jeff can be counted on for some one-on-one advice via phone.
Here is the link, if I remember it correctly: http://www.homesteadfinishing.com
Thanks Gene, I put a similiar post there. I didn't know they sold finishes also.... HMMM, will go back and check with them.Semper Fi
"To be young and a conservative, you have no heart"
"To be old and a liberal, you have no mind"
Winston Churchill
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985
...Then brush paint the latex then the water based poly over this. I learned the hard way that paper products stick to latex without a clear finish over the paint. Maybe I should be using something besides the latex and water based poly, tips?
How well does does the water-based ply work? I've got some shelves that I need to paint and I was planning on using oil-based paint. The rest of the room is latex so I won't get an exact match on the sheen, but it will be close.
Using water-based poly seems like it might be easier if it's durable enough for shelves. Is it? Also, how much does it change the sheen? I need it reasonably close.
-Don
You and I had the same delimma. That is why I didn't go with the oil based products. Paint the shelves what ever color and paint the rest of the room is. I would then match the sheen for the water based poly to the paint in the room you are trying to match. IIRC, it comes in satin, semi, gloss. I used gloss. I used a minwax product for the water poly. I am going to go through Jeff Jewitt and get one of his products next time. The minwax poly dried wayyyyyy too fast for my liking when brushing. Had to work my arse off.Semper Fi
"To be young and a conservative, you have no heart"
"To be old and a liberal, you have no mind"
Winston Churchill
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985
w/b is actually thicker than o/b due to the amount of solids in it.
View Image "We fight not to enslave ,but to set free"
Thomas Paine
On this next one I build I am leaning toward the Enduro clear acrylic through Jeff. I still need to get in contact with Jeff to check out a few things but if I understand everything correctly if we used the acrylic paint we wouldn't need a clear top coat. I learned that acrylic is good for shelving, no sticking, won't yellow. I liked the idea because of the one application method.
Latex paint and poly for what it is worth worked very well for me. Did everything I needed it to do. Just trying to simplify the process even more with like results. I'm being a little selfish here!Semper Fi
"To be young and a conservative, you have no heart"
"To be old and a liberal, you have no mind"
Winston Churchill
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985
Jar
I couldn't add anything that hasn't already been said but I would leave the minwax finish alone.
Its easy to spray, I think a monkey could use it but there are so many other products out there that are better - and if your going to the trouble to do the work why not use a better product.
Doug
Its easy to spray, I think a monkey could use it but there are so many other products out there that are better - and if your going to the trouble to do the work why not use a better product.
I believe you about better products.......I am looking into going with something different.Semper Fi
"To be young and a conservative, you have no heart"
"To be old and a liberal, you have no mind"
Winston Churchill
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985
I would highly recomend finishing everything in the shop before installation. You have much better control over all the elements that are critical to getting a good finish. Namely, you can position the pieces to make them easier to spray, you can control the airflow better than on site, you can control lighting, sanding is easier, and the biggest plus to finishing in the shop is when something goes wrong, it is a lot easier to fix than it would be on site. Also, when it comes time to finish the cases, remove the backs. This will make spraying and sanding the sides, shelves, coreners, etc. much easier. I finish the backs seperately and then put them back on the cabinets before installation. As an added plus, the cabinets are lighter to move around the shop with no backs.
I put this over at Jeff Jewitt's site also, he along with 99% of the posters said as you, do it at the shop. They just fill in nail holes and touch up at the residence. I'll probably go this route, like you said if something did go wrong you can repair easier at the shop.Semper Fi
"To be young and a conservative, you have no heart"
"To be old and a liberal, you have no mind"
Winston Churchill
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985
Number one, I use Sherwin-Williams ProClassic primer and 100% acrylic paint thinned 20% with water to spray in my HVLP conversion gun. Two coats of primer, the second sanded, and 2-3 LIGHT coats of finish cured at least a week, and you won't have any blocking on any horizontal surface. For painted surfaces.
You can finish the interior and shelves, then apply the FF, fill, and caulk that and then brush it. Or, you can use biscuits on the FF, finish it with the cab, and clamp using the holes in the case for the shelf supports to index your clamps with cauls across the width. Use trim head screws to attach the case to the walls, and position them behind shelves, and touch up.
Done both, and I'd rather bursh the FF than having to mess with clamps.
If you're using clear over stain, use Target WB lacquer, as it is much harder than nitro.
That's what I was looking for in the posts, products and techniques, thanks Tom!Semper Fi
"To be young and a conservative, you have no heart"
"To be old and a liberal, you have no mind"
Winston Churchill
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985