As some of you may know, I hired a contractor to put in a Bruce hardwood floor in a room where part of it is in the original house and part of it is in a new addition.
There had been some settling of the original structure, so that at one end of the seam between the old and new flooring there is an 1/8″ height difference.
The contractor decided to handle this by building up the original floor with what I understand to be some kind of worked plywood (I was working at the time and never saw exactly what he did). But the effect turned out to be like a badly feathered spackle job: a bulge next to a dip. The attached photo shows a straight edge resting on the bulge and spanning over the dip in the hardwood.
The real dip is more than what the photo shows, because the hardwood here actually as a gap under it. The hardwood dips down because the nails are holding it somewhat to the subfloor.
If this problem was near the side of the room where the contractor finished, life would be fairly easy. I’d tell him to rip out the strips until the problem was exposed and then fix it. However, the problem is right next to where he started the job, and the room is about 14′ by 25′ long. An easy solution did not come to mind.
When I showed this problem to the contractor, he attempted to solve it by jacking up the subfloor a bit from below and then holding it in position with a piece of 2×4 nailed to a floor joist.
Obviously, this isn’t going to solve things. When I came in at the end of the day, I also saw a yet-to-be used can of “Great Stuff.” That is, he seems to think he can foam our problems away.
I think I could use some good advice right now. What do you recommend I do to make this floor:
1) Solid (a must)
2) Level (Want it, but not essential)
Thank you!
Replies
take up the floor in the problem area...
repair the cause of the bulge... or dip depending on how the photo is viewed...
add a spline to the existing floor and revese lay the floor back down...
if the foam is to repair the bulge some how.. throw it away or at least hide it... you think you have a bulge now... wait till that foam expands between floors.. and after it breaks down you'll be left with more problems than ya started with...
if possible take up enough of the floor to get to the 1/8" offset to plane or belt sander it down flat with the new floor.....
raising the floor from underneath in an attempt to close the sub floor to the finshish floor just raises the entier floor as a unit... not such a good plan...
if the floor doesn't squeak now it's going to... it will only get worse..
give up on the quickie tail light repairs and have it fixed right...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Well a very good picture of a #### job Dave.
I don't know that I would care how he fixed it, that is, as long as he didn't foam it, or try to bash up the subfloor to it.......
Really rubs me the wrong way when a bit of preparation could have taken care of this way b/4hand.
I'm assuming by settling of the original structure you mean the house settled and the addition, along with the transition is straight and true. This isn't an unusual circumstance. Masking the difference is not that much magic.
I'm sitting here lost, not sure what to tell you. He #### up and now you are forced to try to come up with an equitable solution.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
"I'm sitting here lost, not sure what to tell you. He #### up and now you are forced to try to come up with an equitable solution."
-- That about sums it up. Fortunately, it's part of a much larger project -- a 1000 sq ft addition, and there's still a large balance due. I think he'll come around to our point of view. Wish we didn't have to get into it, though.
Ya shoulda had him use the felt instead of the rosin....
; )
Sorry....couldn't resist. Just tryin' to git ya to smile through this.
Installer screwed up and you should settle for nothing less than his pulling out the affected area of flooring and addressing properly, the issue of the dips/humps in the subfloor.
You mentioned the problem here.....so I am assuming it was brought to his attention ahead of time. He has no excuse for such an oversight.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"Installer screwed up and you should settle for nothing less than his pulling out the affected area of flooring and addressing properly, the issue of the dips/humps in the subfloor.
You mentioned the problem here.....so I am assuming it was brought to his attention ahead of time. He has no excuse for such an oversight."
-- Looks like a unanimous decision. This is going to make my conversation with him a lot easier.
And yes, he knew about the problem ahead of time. Probably stubbed his toe on it once or twice while he was building the addition.
what was your agreement with the installer? before he started?
In my world it's common for me as the GC to give the INSTALLER a solid floor with no major height differences. It's his job to give me a great install job. On the other hand It's the installers job to inform me if the floor is not up to the standards that would give a great install
It sounds like the only option that will give YOU satisfaction is to remove the existing area and fix it. That does not necessarily mean that the whole floor would need removed, depending on the skill of the installer.
It all comes back to the original discussion I guess.
"what was your agreement with the installer? before he started?
In my world it's common for me as the GC to give the INSTALLER a solid floor with no major height differences. "
-- In this case, the same three people were involved: the GC and his two employees. Not sure who did what, but my general experience with this project has been that the GC does a good job himself, but whenever he leaves to do something else, the employees don't keep up his level of quality.
He's already repaired a couple of their screw-ups and has been good about it. But this one's a bugger, and I think he knows it. Sad to see him trying to find a cheap way out.
GC does a good job himself, but whenever he leaves to do something else, the employees don't keep up his level of quality.
seems he could be a contribitor to one of the several "employee" threads that are going on right now...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"seems he could be a contribitor to one of the several "employee" threads that are going on right now..."
-- Yup...
There isn't an easy solution, only some hard work. Take out the offending portion of the floor, I've done a couple of these and it takes some thought and planning. I would pick that portion of the floor I want removed and mark it with painters tape, then, using my Festool saw and guide, cut on lines laid out on the tape, cutting in the center of the boards so as not to ruin my blade. When you are cutting on the ends of the boards you will have to use a plunge router and a 1/4 inch radius bit. You don't have to take out full lengths of boards, but make sure the boards still appear to be of random lengths. After you have removed the first board the next ones are a bit easier.
Once the boards are up you can shim to level and/or bring the differences in line with a straight edge in a gradual and smooth slope. Floor leveling compounds are one choice as is the Bondo that auto body shops use. I've used Bondo the last five or so years because of the low VOC's and the fact that it doesn't shrink or crack with vibration. One eight inch masonite is my preference to go over the Bondo if there is room. That may not be an alternative for your situation.
Since the problem is next to where he started I would rip a tongue that will fit into the groove of the board the is still on the floor and start laying back to the door. I put all of the boards in without nails to be sure all will look correct, and if need be I'll trim a number of boards so that one doesn't look so much different from the rest. Since it was a prefinished floor that was laid so recently I doubt that you'll have to be concerned about this issue. Then, once you are satisfied with the way it looks take the loose boards out and begin nailing. However, before you take them out mark each with a number on a painters tape tag. (I don't want to talk about how I learned this last piece of advice.)
Good luck!
"There isn't an easy solution, only some hard work..."
-- Wow. You made the solution about as clear as it gets. I think I'm just going to print this out and hand it to him.
Thank you!
Anybody want to add any advice to this?
Dave,
How does the subfloor thickness compare from the old and the new?
Is this a high ridge or does the frame of the old come uphill to meet the new?
If you pull back the subfloor into the old room you might be able to putz (cut/shim) the frame to even it out. Then subfloor to bridge the two.
Best of luck.
And it sure looks like more than an eighth inch.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
"How does the subfloor thickness compare from the old and the new?"
-- Old: 5/8"; New: 3/4".
"Is this a high ridge or does the frame of the old come uphill to meet the new?"
-- Not sure I understand the question. If you look at the seam between old and new from the interior of the original house, the two subfloors are smooth on top on the left and goint about 3/4s to the right. after that, they start to diverge.
"If you pull back the subfloor into the old room you might be able to putz (cut/shim) the frame to even it out. Then subfloor to bridge the two."
-- Interesting idea. Anyone want to comment on it?
"Best of luck."
-- Thank you!
And it sure looks like more than an eighth inch.
-- I think you're right. It's less than 1/4", though. The mirroring affect of the new floor makes the gap look twice as big as it is.
can't draw it out for you but imagine a crown in the framing.
sort of like this, tho not as drastic. -----> ^
Frame goes up as you approach the addition, then goes down (level I guess) into the addition.
Hacking, whacking, shimming and bridging (across the joint) will soften the transition. It'll still be going up and over, just not as drastic. To the trained foot, might still notice. But to everyone else----------gone.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
why does it have to be a Festool...
why can't it be a MM, Milwaukee SW and a real Sawzall...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
multimaster and a brain could have that section of flooring taken up in no time.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
use the SW on one piece....
the blades for the MM are hard to come by out here and migraine induceing expensive....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
It does not have to be but if you have ever used a Festool plunge cut saw and guide rail you would know that nothing does a better job.I was on a job installing kitchen cabinets (I was not the flooring installer) and the flooring installer started laying the floor in the kitchen and then another worker from the same company started laying in the adjoining room back toward the kitchen floor. When he started I asked him don’t you want to start where the other guy left off, He scoffed no it will work out. I watched trying not to say anything but as he was about 4 courses from the edge of where the first guy stopped he noticed he was never going to match the rooms where not square to each other he sat there not knowing what to do.First the home owner did not want them to start over but wanted it fixed and other then starting over the floor installers would have done a hack job trying to get the floors to match without any gaps . The home owner asked if I could fix it without taking up the flooring. I looked at it and said yes I think I can. Then using my festool I cut a jointer straight line and fit in a adjoining tapered piece of flooring right in the middle of the room that over the length of the room went from 3 1/2 “ to 2 “ Now this is not a ideal way to fix this job by right the owner would have been within his rights to ask them to pull up the floor and do it right but he was happy with the repair and I attribute the success of this fix to the accuracy and tight fit I was able to achieve with that saw and guide rail system. I do not think I could have done it with any other tool. No I am not a festool dealer just a happy owner of a few of their tools
3 1/2 “ to 2 “
Man that would be pretty noticeable wouldn't it!
I think they be tearing it up!
Doug
over 20 feet you do not notice unless you know where it is in the floor and you are looking along the length.
Now if it was 1 1/2 inches over 3 ft you would see it but even then If you selected the right pieces and the grain blended well you might be able to even hide that.
that sounds like an add for Festool....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
2 flooring installers starting from opposite rooms is er, really something.
I've seen it a dozen times with roofers who start on opposing sides of a dormer and wonder why the courses don't meet at the top.
So why do you think they sent the roofers in to lay the hardwood?
Gord
does the floor squeak at the bulge/dip now...
did the floor squeak before the attempted repairs???
if so, has the sweak gotten worse????
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"does the floor squeak at the bulge/dip now...
did the floor squeak before the attempted repairs???
if so, has the sweak gotten worse????"
-- I noticed the dip just by walking on the floor in my bare feet. Once I started walking on the dip to see what would happen, it squeeked.
What the contractor did with the 2x4 underneath may have helped a bit, but the dip and the squeek are still there. Don't think it made things worse, at least, not yet.
describe in detail what he did with the 2x4...
got a picture???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"describe in detail what he did with the 2x4...
got a picture???"
-- I'll see what I can do after work.
"describe in detail what he did with the 2x4...
got a picture???"
-- Apologies for being out of touch for a couple days. My father-in-law, whose been in the hospital since August, had some medical issues that pulled me away. He's the reason we built the addition. The room with the hardwood floors is next to his new first-floor bedroom and handicapped-accessible bathroom.
Well, it turns out that the can of Great Stuff I referred to was the contractor's second can (it's still sitting there). When I went down to take a photo of the underside, you can see from the photo that he had drilled some 3/4" holes into the subfloor and shot some Great Stuff in it.
He must be experienced with this approach, because it actually improved things on the topside. The dip appears to be reduced, and feels much more solid. I'll take a photo of the topside over the weekend when the lighting is good and the workers aren't around so you can see what it looks like.
But we know that foam is only a temporary solution. How temporary? Not sure. Depends on how much traffic the area gets. We can probably arrange furniture to make it a low traffic area, but I don't exactly call that a great solution.
Your comments?
do not accept that....
have then take it all out and fix it right....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
This strikes me as one of those situations where tearing out the problem and redoing it is often less daunting in the long run than suffering through a bunch of headscratching, patching, trying something else and losing sleep.
When the correct redo is finally accomplished, one often thinks, "Why didn't I just do that in the beginning!"
I speak from experience.... :-)
"I speak from experience.... :-)"
-- Your advice helps a lot. Experience is what I DON'T have.
Maybe true, but your G/C should, so he can probably relate to my own muddlement in the past.
What I'm saying is, and I know this from experience, removing the faulty floor section, correcting the subfloor issues correctly, as others have suggested, is really not that big a deal once that first demo saw cut is made.
Everybody will be happy in the end.
I wish you and your contractor well!
On edit: His repair should NOT be on the bill except as a "no charge" courtesy.
Edited 1/11/2008 11:45 am by Notchman
"removing the faulty floor section, correcting the subfloor issues correctly, as others have suggested, is really not that big a deal once that first demo saw cut is made.
Everybody will be happy in the end."
-- Thanks. That's good to know.
Just a few thoughts.
Where did he start running the floor?
At one wall working towards the center of the room?
Or did he start in the center, using a spline to work both ways?
I'm just wondering about the ridge in the floor. Maybe he didn't nail the spline side of the flooring down.
Woods favorite carpenter
and maybe the foam is making things worse instead of better because of poor nailing....
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I can't imaginne the foam is helping much at all.
It's not a huge deal to take out a few boards and replace them.
I use a 1/4" spiral bit on my router and cut them out. Hammer and chisel to finish off the ends.
Anyone worth working for you will take any steps neccessary to make this right. Woods favorite carpenter
Yeah, the biggest problem here is the builder's mental block against backing up.
This could have been finbessed with ten mintues of levelor or shim material before the flooring, or with an hour taking it back up to fix and replace.
But instead, I bewt he has an hour into that dillywaggle of foam and still hasen't got it fixed plus the foam is going to make it harder to take up flooring to get this right
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
His "fix" made it go from bad to worse.
I wonder if he drilled through the paper too? If not he might get lucky. If so then a repair is going to be a pain. Woods favorite carpenter
I got the impression is was the results of a poor shimming at the 1/8" higth offset in new to old floors sub floor...
in the second pic I got the idea the GC raised the sub floor to the finish floor...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
That difference should have been sanded out before the underlayment was rolled out.
I have never seen a floor installer just go over subfloor differences before.
They usually belt sand them down, or get out the big drum sander on them if they are big enough. Woods favorite carpenter
according to Dave
The contractor decided to handle this by building up the original floor with what I understand to be some kind of worked plywood (I was working at the time and never saw exactly what he did). But the effect turned out to be like a badly feathered spackle job: a bulge next to a dip.
from this I got the idea it was shimmed... sortta....
and this...
-- I noticed the dip just by walking on the floor in my bare feet. Once I started walking on the dip to see what would happen, it squeeked
suspect an air gap between the finish and subfloors...
BUT WAIT!!!!!
there's more....
View Image
you can see from the photo that he had drilled some 3/4" holes into the subfloor and shot some Great Stuff in it.
confirmation of air gap??? is the sub floor lifted???
ya think these are tail light fixes???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
An1/8" subfloor difference shouldn't be that big of a deal.
Lack of nails, hard to really tell without standing on it in my socks. Woods favorite carpenter
something to our standards should have been done in the prep department to start with...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
where did the floor installer start laying the floor from in relation to the hump/dip that you have???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"where did the floor installer start laying the floor from in relation to the hump/dip that you have???"
-- I think my answer to MattSwanger answers the question, but now there's what appears to be an even bigger issue:
Yesterday, the contractor and an employee swept up the floor, and now that the surface is clean, I've discovered hundreds of gouges, maybe over a thousand -- half-moons with about a 1/2" diameter.
My guess is that the device he used to install the nails was missing some padding on the underside, or damaged in some other way. Almost every time he hammered a nail into the wood, he was also driving whatever was on the underside of the device into the wood's surface.
Attached are two photos with examples of what I'm talking about. I'm on the verge of just hiring someone else to take out the entire floor and re-do it, and subtracting the cost from the final payment. If theres a better, more peaceable way to resolve things, please let me know. Or if this is normal, and I shouldn't be bothered by it, please tell me now. Otherwise, things could get ugly.
oh boy...
are they dents or gouges???
a dent is a depression...
a gouge damaged the finish and wood...
yur wish for a new flooring contractor is vaild...
if it were mine...
I would use another installer...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"are they dents or gouges???"
-- In about half the cases they are gouges. They cut right through the polyurathane and into the wood so that the wood is exposed. Attached another picture of some more gouges.
replace the floor..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I can't really see the 'gouges', only a few marks, but those photos are poor.
They don't show that bad in the overall, but the flooring material itself is totally unimpressive to me. That could be because I like real hardwood finished in place.If it is as you say, then the right way to deal with it is to tell him that the floor is unacceptable and he must replace it before getting paid. there are states that require you to allow him first chance to make it right within a certain amount of time rather than just up and hire somebody else before he gets a chance to re-do it.my flooring nailer has a different pad for pre-finished floors. I have never used it, but I know I was thinking, "Hey neat" when I put things together before I threw it in a corner of the shop never to be seen again. Some nailers also have different shims for different thicknesses of flooring.starting to sound like this builder is fixing to make a 'tuition payment'
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I can see the dings even in the large overall photo in spots where the light makes a specular highlight. That would be unacceptable to me. If that happened on one of my jobs I would offer to make it right immediately. Sand and refinish ought to take care of it, though, rather than replacement. It is solid hardwood, right, not engineered, I hope. Knowing you are going to have to at minimum sand and refinish, tearing up what you need to in order to fix the hump becomes pretty minor in the bigger picture. At this point the GC needs to make it right, no two ways about it.Steve
"It is solid hardwood, right"
-- Yes, so he can definitely refinish it. Kinda like the idea of putting the finish on in-place anyway.
Sand and refinish ought to take care of it, though, rather than replacement.
No way. Sanding and refinishing now, means one less time it can be done in the future, which shortens the lifespan of the product he's paid for.
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
I'm curious as to whether you have ever seen a 3/4" oak floor that had been sanded to the point of no return? I deal primarily with 150 year old floors that have been sanded to death and have only ever come across one that was beyond re-sanding, and that was pine. I'm not trying to be combative, it's just that I've heard that argument, but never seen a hardwood floor that was beyond another sanding. Oh wait...I did come across one, but it was a 3/8 material from the turn of the century, not 3/4".Steve
Steve, you're going to have to alter your language.
Unless you mean it's a fairly new floor.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Calvin, ya lost me there...not sure what you are getting at.Steve
from the turn of the century
We just went through a turn, you meant maybe the previous one?
This is what happens to some of us that remember way back there to the early 1900's.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Edited 1/13/2008 12:47 pm ET by calvin
Oh, right. Good catch. I guess I'm showing my age. "Turn of the century" to me is pretty much an idiomatic expression that only means early 1900's. But I guess that's from 42 years of that being true for me. That more recent one is "the millenium" in my mind.Steve
I hear you on the age factor. We knew and always referred to the old one, now we've been through one.
Same thing with a house from the fifties "not being very old".
Point of reference keeps changing along with our birthdays.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I don't think that the Last Century turns until about 2050..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
What is there.....about 3/8" of oak above the tongue on hardwood flooring?
Take off about 1/8" each sanding?
That's about 3 refinishes, give or take.
I don't care if you can convince me you can get 10 out of it.
If you do a poor installation job on my floors, you don't get a mulligan, while I eat one refinishing.
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
JD,If I was offered the choice of having it ripped up and replaced with another pre-finished floor or having that one sanded and field-finished with Waterlox or Danish Oil, I would choose the refinishing in a heartbeat, because it would be a nicer floor in the end. Even if I knew the floor would be dead in eighty years rather than a hundred. But that's just me. I know I'm fussy about aesthetics. And I'm not saying my aesthetic preference is the "right" preference, just that I know what I like, and would be willing to sacrifice longevity for something that I find more pleasing in this instance.If you install and field-finish a floor you're gonna sand it once right off the bat. That's just the reality of a field-finished floor.And I'm operating on the assumption that Dave prefers a field-finished floor because of this quote from him in post #62:>>...I'm with you on finishing the hardwood in place. Among other advantages, it seals the floor better spillages, pet accidents, etc. Did what we did partially through ignorance, and it seemed like that is what all the flooring places recommended. Probably lower skill needed for installation...Plan to finish it again in-place at some point in time in the future.<<So it would seem to me refinishing rather than replacing would be of benefit to Dave, as field-finish would have been his preference in the beginning.Longevity seems like an non-issue to me. I've seen literally hundreds of hardwood floors that are over a hundred years old and have been sanded multiple times. As a homeowner I wouldn't be too concerned about one sanding at initial installation costing me one more sanding 80 years from now. I would be more more concerned about how my floors looked for the first eighty years.But different strokes for different folks. If Dave decides he likes the prefinished look and can get a new floor out of the deal, great.Steve
I am with you on all thaat reaasoning and preference.It would probably be less expensive for the builder too.The one thing that gives me hesitation on this though is that the way this contractor has gone about things, he is likely to want to use unqualified help to do the refinishing and then end up making a bad job worse instead of subbing it out to a good floor finisher.
That and the distressed look of what is there too. That stain ould be covering up some real crappy wood that is going to be hard to refinish well.If it were my house, I would first get a price from somebody with good recommendations and a site visit.
Then I would negotiate with the builder. that buoilder has first right of refusal so to speak on how he is going to fix this, but having seond thoughtsabout how well he does things, and knowing he is ready to split and get out of there, negotiating for him to take enough off the final bill to have my own refinisher taake care of the floor would be my goal as HO.As a contractor, I would already have fired the guy who laid the floor, kicked myself in the butt for allowing it all to happen, and have already re-ordered more flooring and told the HO what was up
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I would already have fired the guy who laid the floor, kicked myself in the butt for allowing it all to happen, and have already re-ordered more flooring and told the HO what was up
I believe you said what most here are thinking and would have done...
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WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"negotiating for him to take enough off the final bill to have my own refinisher taake care of the floor would be my goal as HO."
-- That's where we're at. Will be calling around for estimates this week. Plan to have our numbers before talking with the contractor about the flooring.
"As a contractor, I would already have fired the guy who laid the floor, kicked myself in the butt for allowing it all to happen, and have already re-ordered more flooring and told the HO what was up"
-- In the long run, this is the wisest policy. We've got plenty of other work to do on this house. It's 20 years old and just about everything needs to be upgraded or replaced. We're already planning to put hardwood floors in the hall from the entrance to the kitchen, do a complete kitchen remodeling, add a bay window to the front, and replace the garage doors.
If we felt that we could trust his good judgement, we wouldn't even look at another contractor.
Edited 1/14/2008 6:49 am ET by DelawareDave61
I'm sure I'm not alone in anticipating an update...
"I'm sure I'm not alone in anticipating an update..."
-- Didn't mean to keep people in suspense ;^)
At the beginning of the week, we contacted the flooring contractor suggested by a BTer in a direct email (thanks again!). Turns out that the flooring contractor is a real professional, does flooring only, is well-established, and even has his own salespeople. The salesperson came out Thursday morning and faxed us an estimate Thursday afternoon, which we received in paper via mail on Friday.
Now for the interesting twist: The original contractor gave us an allowance of $25/sq yd, with a total value in this room of $1310. When we ordered hardwood floors instead of carpeting, he added $4785 to the charge, for a total charge of $6095.
The flooring contractor gave us three estimates:
1) Rip out hardwood floor ($813) and replace with same ($4447). Total: $5260. For those who are curious, the cost of materials and installation of the new flooring works out to $11.40 per sq ft.
2) Refinish installed hardwood floor: $2583.
3) Rip out hardwood floor ($813) and replace withselect grade red oak, 3 coats of urethane ($5250). Total: $6063.
In other words, the original contractor charged far more than the flooring specialist would have. He could have charged what he charged, hired the specialist, and still come out ahead. Instead, he let his untrained employee botch the job.
Back in #119, Piffin wrote:
-- Other BT'rs reinforced Piffin's points, and this is the advice we're following.
These are the options I see at this point:
Subtract the original total charge the contractor gave ($6095) and the cost of ripping out his work ($813) from the final payment (which is the only payment that remains at this point). This is a justifiable thing to do, and it would end up saving us $2461 on the total cost of the job.
Subtract the flooring contractor's charge to rip and replace ($5260) from the final payment, which is a bit more forgiving and still saves us $835 on the total cost of the job.
Subtract the cost of refinishing the installation ($2583) from the final payment, which would save us $2583, and give us a finished-in-place floor.
Allow the original contractor to rip and replace the flooring, which wouldn't save us any money, but would cost the contractor more than $2000 in materials and labor.
Given these options, I'm aiming at #3. However, my wife likes the 7-year warrantee from Bruce on the pre-finished floor and, given that she was involved in making the original decision to go with the pre-finished Bruce, we may end up going with #1 or #2.
From the contractor's viewpoint, this job has taken two months longer than he originally estimated, and #4 would cost him as much #1 or #3, but also chew up his time for another few weeks.
I think that if I offered #2, he'd take it in a heartbeat. We would come out ahead, but only because the contractor overcharged us so much in the first place.
My question is, should I be satisfied with this, or should I hold out for either #1 or #3? Or should I start out pushing for #1 or #3 and let him negotiate me down to #2?
If you have any thoughts, wisdom, or experiences on this question, please let me know. Thank you!
I assume the new contractor is aware of the "fix" to the dip in the floor and his price reflects a proper repair.
If so, Option 2 sounds like the way to go, but I would start "negotiations" with telling the current contractor that you're not paying for the floor ($6095), but he can leave it and you'll take care of ripping it out and replacing it. I wouldn't add the $813 to the amount to be deducted because he may want to remove it himself to save the $813 and at this point you're probably better off if he doesn't touch the floor at all.
If he balks, negotiate down to option 2, but he doesn't need to know what the new contractor is costing since you're paying for that directly.
I assume the new contractor is aware of the "fix" to the dip in the floor and his price reflects a proper repair.
Unfortunately, the new contractor told us that he does flooring only, and we will have to fix the dip ourselves. At this point, I think I've gotten some good tips on how to do this, and it sounds fairly straight-forward to someone willing to take their time.
I wouldn't add the $813 to the amount to be deducted because he may want to remove it himself to save the $813 and at this point you're probably better off if he doesn't touch the floor at all.
Good point.
If he balks, negotiate down to option 2, but he doesn't need to know what the new contractor is costing since you're paying for that directly.
As long as he doesn't insist on fixing things himself, this is the plan. Am I obligated to let him keep trying to fix it? So far, it sounds like the answer is yes.
I don't think you have a right to do #1 without offering him the choice to replace it. I don't know the law in your state, byut ethiccly it is the right thing to give a guy a chance to do right.but you have lost confidence that he can do that, so some sort of compromise is in order.Either #3 or 4 are going to cost him about $2500, but those options give you a less than you paid for floor finish that would not satisfy your wife.#2 will probably give you the best from her POV but he has the right to argue for #4, so I suspect the right thing will be a compromise negotiation involving you holding back about $3500 and hiring the other professional outfit to replace for youPersonally, I'd have it refinished in place and deduct that from the original contractor's payment - and document everything with photos much better than you have now
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I don't think you have a right to do #1 without offering him the choice to replace it...I suspect the right thing will be a compromise negotiation involving you holding back about $3500 and hiring the other professional outfit to replace for you
-- You may be right. What bugs me is that this would be rewarding bad behavior. He overcharged, underperformed, and showed bad judgement when trying to fix a problem he created.
He may appear to be out $3500, but he actually overcharged for the flooring by enough to cover the apparent loss. I'm basically bribing him to let me use someone else rather than let him go at it again, and it will end up costing us more money.
Not happy about it. Are we saying that I should just get ready to suck it up?
"Are we saying that I should just get ready to suck it up?"possible, but all depends on how accommodating everybody is and how good your 'negotiating' skills are.
You have a right to what you asked for at the price he quoted. If that is your hard line, then tell him that is what he has to do - tear it out and do it again.As long as the money is in your pocket and not his, you have his attention.
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Dave, you know we're behind you on this, and think you deserve recompense. But I gotta take issue with the statemant that your GC overcharged you. Just because the quote you got from the other guy came in lower, that does not mean that your contractor overcharged you. He probably charged what he thought he needed to charge given his particular costs of doing business and the margins he needs to achieve to make a living, yet stay competitive.There is always someone out there who will do it for less for a variety of reasons, none of which are relevant to your GC's business model. And if your GC was hiring the guy you got the quote from to subcontract the floor, he would by all rights mark up the price anywhere from 20 to 60 percent, then pass it on to you. That's how GC's make a living. Best of luck in your negotiating.Steve
I have to agree with that.
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I gotta take issue with the statemant that your GC overcharged you.
Just because the quote you got from the other guy came in lower, that does not mean that your contractor overcharged you. He probably charged what he thought he needed to charge given his particular costs of doing business and the margins he needs to achieve to make a living, yet stay competitive.
You make a good point; I can't presume what his costs were verses that of the guy who specializes in flooring.
However, I get the distinct impression that I paid for both a carpet and a hardwood floor, and got a hardwood floor.
Why? Because he has already given me two change orders where three of the five items on the second change order were already listed on the first one. If I hadn't compared the two, I would have paid for three items twice.
With the hardwood floors, I had nothing to compare his charge to, and couldn't instinctively tell whether he subtracted out the original allowance from his flooring installation charge.
The contract gave a $25/sq yd allowance for flooring, which is about right for wall-to-wall carpeting. The contractor charged an additional $4785 for the hardwood flooring, which was $338 more for the entire $4447 estimate of the flooring contractor for installation.
In other words, the contractor could have hired the flooring contractor I found to install a hardwood floor, and then laid a rug on top of it according to the allowance of the original contract, and still walked away with $338.
The contractor charged us a total of $6095 for the hardwood floors. The flooring contractor's estimate for installation is $4447. If the contractor had simply called the flooring contractor and hired him, he would have walked away with $1648 net.
So, while you make a valid point, the contractor's track record for double-charging leads me to think that this is another case where a charge I had already paid for, or had agreed to pay for, was not subtracted out of a change order.
It could be an honest mistake, or there might not have been any mistake at all. I'm not going to openly accuse him of double charging me. However, for the price he charged, I would have expected a top-rate installation, and what we got was a bulge/dip in the floor that the contractor attempted to fix by jacking up the subfloor and sqirting in "Great Stuff" foam, PLUS a thousand-plus gouges on the surface.
And that's the key point. If he had done a good job to start with, we wouldn't be having this discussion, and my wife and I would have been thrilled with the hardwood floors we paid $6095 for.
Edited 1/21/2008 7:12 am ET by DelawareDave61
Edited 1/21/2008 7:12 am ET by DelawareDave61
you know we're behind you on this
Yes, and I really appreciate it. These discussions have been helping me see the issues from all angles.
Any update yet???
Inquiring minds and all that........
I popped in yesterday, wondering the same thing.
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
ditto
Any update yet???
No new news on the hardwood floors yet. This is because our ever-growing punch list now has 156 items on it, and we're trying to focus on the uncontrovertial fix-ups before dealing with the tough ones. We're also still waiting for the bathroom fixtures to come, and I don't want to risk a blow-up before then.
What we're doing right now is going through the punch list for each room, starting with the easiest ones so that we can mark them DONE. The contractor doesn't know this, but we're saving the Great Room for last for a reason.
Exterior yet?
Exterior yet?
Not yet. The contractor is moving pretty quickly through our personal punch list of items in the easy rooms and I don't want to distract him. I plan to bring it up with him as he wraps up those rooms (so we can finally move into them).
In the mean time, I've found the county code specifications for flashing and have contacted our county inspector for the addition to confirm that the things we're requesting are truly a matter of county code.
I expect to talk with him next week about the flashing issues. Makes it a lot easier knowing that county code backs me up.
Once the flashing issues are taken care of, I plan to get into other exterior issues, like the roof of the bay window.
Contractor projected this project to be done by end of November...started in August...
change in scope of work? wow!
change in scope of work?
Nope. It's the original contract; no changes. We've been living for over three months with the family room furniture packed into the dining room and living room, with TV only usable for videos.
wow....
Just curious, is there an option to have the pro floor guy take up only the bad section of floor, fix the subfloor issue, and then refinish existing floor to get rid of the gouges? I understood quote 1 to be taking up the entire floor and didn't know if he thought he could fix the bulge by only taking up the problem area.
Edited 1/19/2008 11:24 am ET by bp21901
Just curious, is there an option to have the pro floor guy take up only the bad section of floor, fix the subfloor issue, and then refinish existing floor to get rid of the gouges?
-- I asked the pro floor guy this very question, and he said that his company only lay flooring. We're going to have to fix the subfloor bulge ourselves.
So it's now looking like we're going to tell the original contractor that we're rejecting the floor and ask him to take it out. Once its out, I'll probably have to handle the bulge myself, either sanding down or building up -- with Bondo? -- and once it's smoothed out, then bring in the flooring contractor.
There are plenty of cheaper floor levelors that you can use. I often use Durham's Rock Hard Wood putty. Easy mix and easy fix
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Durham's Rock Hard Wood putty
Thank you!
Overall...I agree. That one refinishing won't likely afect the current homeowner in his lifetime.
But as a matter of principle at this point, I would not settle for a refinishing from the contractor who has basically screwed up this install from the get-go.
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
Agreed. This guy lost his chance. Get a credit and find a specialist to do it right, whether it's refinish, or replace.Steve
"No way."???????????????I thought we were all making various suggestions for options for him to consider, then letting him decide.When did you get to be the chief decider on this job?;)
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"I can't really see the 'gouges', only a few marks, but those photos are poor."
-- Just attached another picture in reply to IMERC that shows some other gouges that may be more visible.
"They don't show that bad in the overall, but the flooring material itself is totally unimpressive to me. That could be because I like real hardwood finished in place."
-- The flooring is Bruce oak, gunstock finish, 3/4" X 2 1/4" strips. Any comments?
Also, I'm with you on finishing the hardwood in place. Among other advantages, it seals the floor better spillages, pet accidents, etc. Did what we did partially through ignorance, and it seemed like that is what all the flooring places recommended. Probably lower skill needed for installation.
Plan to finish it again in-place at some point in time in the future. Any comments on that?
This is just my opinion, take it for what it's worth.
Make them tear it out and start over. Once it's all tore out, have them prep the subfloors right.
You're paying for a factory finished floor with a guarantee on the finish. Maybe 25 years, what ever it is. A field applied Poly will not last that long.
Your the one signing the check, your the one who has to be happy.
The kitchen I have going right now, the HO's hired their own floor sub for the Hickory floors. THey have made them sand and refinish it twice already because they weren't happy with the color. And now they are going to make them do it a third time because they aren't happey with it.
Good luck. Woods favorite carpenter
"THey have made them sand and refinish it twice already because they weren't happy with the color. And now they are going to make them do it a third time because they aren't happey with it. "
-- Wow. Thanks for helping me put what I'm asking for into perspective.
If you look at the picture in # 52, and look in the light coming through the sliding door, near the bottom of the picture, it looks like a row of face nails in the two places.
You need to work on your picture taking.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Edited 1/12/2008 6:02 pm ET by FastEddie
Edited 1/12/2008 6:03 pm ET by FastEddie
"If you look at the picture in # 52, and look in the light coming through the sliding door, near the bottom of the picture, it looks like a row of face nails in the two places.
You need to work on your picture taking."
-- Yup. Those things that look like face nails are gouges. They look a whole lot clearer than the ones in the photos I took for the purpose. I think the auto-focus got confused by the reflective surface on those close-ups.
Also, if you look at the reflected light coming from the sliding glass, you can see the dip at about the 12th and 13th strip from the wall.
I've not had any personal experience with it, but from what I understand, the Aluminum Oxide factory finishes are tougher than field applied finishes. But I'm sure there will be many here who will jump to the defense of their favorite finish.I don't particularly like the look and feel of factory finish. I think sanding and refinishing would really give the room a more custom look. Gets rid of the aforementioned chamfers and, with the right finish will warm up and soften the floor. I'm partial to Waterlox, which is a catalyzed tung-oil. Others here really like Watco Danish Oil, and then there's frenchy and his passion for shellac. Any of these would be a much prettier floor, in my opinion. Plus all of those options are very easily renewable. Poly not so much.Gentlemen, start your engines...I'm going to hide behind the wall now.Edited for cost: around here it costs about 3.00/sf last time I priced it. But this is a very depressed area. Your mileage will surely vary.Steve
Edited 1/12/2008 7:51 pm by mmoogie
"the look and feel of factory finish."
The few I have seen are definitely hard, but they look like they have been applied with a dogs tail and the grit off his paws. I would refuse to pay an on site finisher who leaves the surface looking like the prefinished stuff I have seen.But to be fair - I don't see that much of it.
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"they look like they have been applied with a dogs tail and the grit off his paws"
-- It's much better than that, BUT it definitely has its own look.
The finish of the wood is perfectly clean and very consistent (unless somebody whacks it). The distinctive look comes from a finish with uniform thickness on a wood surface where the height varies with the grain.
There is none of the leveling that you would expect if a finish was applied to planks that were lying flat and in place. Instead of seeing a relatively smooth top surface, you have one that looks exactly like the grain underneath.
The photo attached to #52 shows the effect very clearly in the light reflections.
Not completely thrilled with it, but I was willing to wait a few years until the finish wore out and would have to be re-done anyway.
We'll see what happens when I talk with the contractor. If refinishing costs on the order of $10/sq ft, or even $5/sq ft, he may decide to simply replace the floor, or allow me to deduct the cost of doing that job with someone else.
Promises to be an interesting week...
or allow me to deduct the cost of doing that job with someone else
Before you agree to him giving you a credit to have the floor fixed, call in a floor specialist and get a firm quote to fix it so you know what it will cost. Otherwise you might get too little money back from the gc."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
"call in a floor specialist and get a firm quote..."
-- Good advice. Thank you!
Not that you should have to, but consider incentivizing (yeah, it's a word) the contractor.
First, find out what he plans on doing to make it right. If it doesn't meet your expectations 100%, consider offering him additional money in order to get there. For example, paying for some part of the additional materials. Once again, you shouldn't have to and temperamentally, you may not want to. But, if it's the easiest way to get what you want/deserve, at least consider it.
Sometimes, money actually is the easiest way to solve a problem.
"If it doesn't meet your expectations 100%, consider offering him additional money in order to get there...Sometimes, money actually is the easiest way to solve a problem."
-- Sadly, I agree with you. My wife and I are swamped. We're both in our busy seasons at work, her father, whose condition motivated us to do all this, has been in the hospital since August and is in very delicate health -- and we basically have to guard over him because of the life-threatening errors that the hospital staff makes regularly -- and the interior of our home has been a construction zone for over three months. Bottom line: this SOCKS!
The last thing we need is another battle to fight. Hate to compromise on principles, though, because it rewards bad behavior. Plan to work things out so that we might split the costs, so that he feels some of our pain.
Were you are going to go for a credit from the GC for that? I would get it made right now. I don't see anything wrong with refinishing as long as it's solid wood. Though from what I understand that factory finish can be pretty hard.What I don't like about pre-finished floors is the chamfer on the edges of the boards.Steve
"I don't see anything wrong with refinishing as long as it's solid wood. Though from what I understand that factory finish can be pretty hard."
-- Anyone want to comment on the relative life expectance of a factory finish vs. a finish laid after installation? The cost of taking off the old finish and putting on a new one?
These may be the last important questions to answer before I have a clear idea as to what to do. Thanks to all for the advice!
If you prefer a finish in place anyways, and if this is solid wood, then all your problems can be fixed by finishing in place now, or accepting what is there after negotiating for the cost of a refinish discount.
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"If you prefer a finish in place anyways, and if this is solid wood, then all your problems can be fixed by finishing in place now, or accepting what is there after negotiating for the cost of a refinish discount."
-- Any idea of an expected cost (per square yard?) for the refinishing? How to find a good refinisher? Warrantee expectations?
Prices vary, around $10 sq ft here.
Warranties vary, usually 1 year. Woods favorite carpenter
"Prices vary, around $10 sq ft here.
Warranties vary, usually 1 year."
-- Now THAT's a wake-up call. More expensive than the flooring itself. What kind of finish? How may coats, or how thick?
The $10 includes sanded to a nice flat, clean surface.
Any stain and 3 coats of Glitza clear with a light sanding between coats. Woods favorite carpenter
wow!
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THats what I say too.
I thought it was just one guy that charged that, it's not. I called 4-5 companies on a job and they were all in the $10 sq ft range.Woods favorite carpenter
I called 4-5 companies on a job and they were all in the $10 sq ft range.
Matt, is that just to sand and finish? I think I can get it laid, sanded and finished for $10 per sq. I'd have to check to be sure but I do know at one time in my life I could get it for $7 laid and finished, maybe time is slipping by faster then I think!
Doug
That was the cost on at least two projects.
Not sure on exact amounts but it was within a quarter of $10.
One was a Red Oak floor in a historic home, the other another Red Oak floor in a remodel on a house that had a car go through it. Woods favorite carpenter
Not sure on exact amounts but it was within a quarter of $10.
Just for refinish! Gonna have to call the floor guy tomorrow just for grins now, got me curious.
I swear I can get the whole thing done(red oak), laid, sanded, and finished for what your paying for finish.. I thought you guys were in hard times there in MI? Maybe its just been longer then I realize?
Doug
Maybe I have been calling the wrong people too. Who knows.
One bid on the car crash house I went with, the other on a historic home I did myself.
Woods favorite carpenter
I can understand it that high on a car crash job. Smaller area, part of the whole, trying crcumstances for owner, hurry up and get it done, match the old....
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10$ a foot and a year...
more for some spieces other than Oak...
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WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Prices vary, around $10 sq ft here.
Here it is $2.50!
Sanding, staining if desired and three coats of poly.
“Some people wonder all their lives if they've made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem.” Reagan....
Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor. -Truman Capote
I looked up the estimates for the red oad floor that I was quoted a price.
422 sq ft, sanded, refinished with 3 coats of poly and a light sanding in between each coat. $4,220.08
Needless to say I rented the sanders for a day and $70. $40 in poly later the job was done.
Woods favorite carpenter
Needless to say I rented the sanders for a day and $70. $40 in poly later the job was done.
LOL, I heard that!!
“Some people wonder all their lives if they've made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem.” Reagan....
Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor. -Truman Capote
refinishing can run from $2 to $5 depending on area etc. With quality work and stained, probably 4-5.This is per sq foot, not yard
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Half moon or even full circular impressions are what you get when the screws holding the nailer pad back out. Been there...
Caught it after just one strip but you can bet I cranked down on the screws after that.
The impressions I can see in the photos appear to be evenly spaced and in line. More like what would happen if there was some kind of rolling cart, scaffold, etc., being moved from one side of the room to the other. If they are truly random then I would suspect the nailer. The flathead screws are about 1/2" in diameter.
What kind of flooring is that? With the reflected lighting it looks like wrinkled plastic.
"Half moon or even full circular impressions are what you get when the screws holding the nailer pad back out."
-- I think you hit the nail on the head (couldn't resist).
The gouges have a spacing that is semi-regular; just what you would expect from someone hammering nails into hardwood flooring. I saw their set-up enough to know that they weren't using scaffolding or a step-ladder after the flooring went in.
I've been involved with alot of floors and I was not entirely unsypathetic to the contractor in regards to the bump/ dip issue. The picture quality was poor, making it hard to make a qualified assumption. Bruce has one of the highest gloss finishes, and will reflect and magnify the problem, especially in a room with that number of windows.
The gouges are a completely different issue, and entirely the contractors fault. There is no quick fix for 1000 gouges. Sanding a pre-finished floor? I can see the advantage for the contractor, but what's in it for you?
Gord
Sanding a pre-finished floor? ... what's in it for you?
No bveveled edges."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
precisely. no beveled edges, nicer looking finish.
"The gouges are a completely different issue, and entirely the contractors fault"
-- Yup. At this point, the gouges completely override any debate on the bump. When the floor comes up, we can deal with the bulge issue.
As to the photos, this attached photo is better, but still not perfect. At least it shows the frequency of the gouges better!
so you have decided then...
the floor comes up...
good....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"so you have decided then...
the floor comes up..."
-- After everything that's been written, I don't think there's much choice. The question remaining is: How's the deal going to go down?
I'd like to see some of the critical systems, such as the electric and plumbing, be finished before the big confrontation. Those subcontractors basically worked enough to get the project approved by the county inspectors, and then they disappeared. Haven't seen them in over a month.
So I plan to press on getting these subcontractors to come out this week and either finish those systems or tell me what's holding things up. Then we can get into the flooring.
So far, I haven't discussed the gouges with the contractor one way or another. As far as he's concerned, I haven't even noticed. There's no way he can argue that I approved of the flooring job.
Dave,That photo is still really out of focus, but I can see the gouges quite plainly. It also looks like the grade of flooring is supposed to be some kind of simulated rustic look...ie: it's full of "dents" and "squiggly grain. Was that a deliberate choice on your part? Not judging, just wondering. Steve
"the grade of flooring is supposed to be some kind of simulated rustic look...ie: it's full of "dents" and "squiggly grain. Was that a deliberate choice on your part?"
-- The finish is "gunstock." Not sure if you've seen it. It has a pronounced grain, but definitely no dents, just bevelled edges. Dents come courtesy of the installer.
In appearance, the floor actually looks nothing like the photo. The gouges are kind of hard to see under normal conditions because the finish is clear. When you look at the gouges from above, they are barely noticable.
To make the gouges show, the photo was taken on a low angle, with light reflecting onto the floor through the sliding glass door. What shows are the breaks in the otherwise smooth reflection of the finished surface. And that's what you're looking at: a reflection of the outdoors mixed with the underlying woodgrain.
What makes the gouges a big problem is not so much how they look at the moment when you're standing over them. It's how it's going to look over time as the unprotected wood spot collects dirt, ages differently, and spreads.
In addition, when we show off our nice new hardwood floors to friends and family, they will react as I did: Initially admiring the beautiful floors, and then noticing a gouge, then another gouge, and another, and then realizing the entire floor is covered with them.
But you raise a good point: If I take a hammer to the whole thing, I can tell people that we wanted that "stressed wood" look. It would feel good too ;^)
I went back and looked at the photo in #52 after posting that last one and saw that there was only pronounced grain, not really any "rustication" denting. Maybe it's reflections from outside I'm seeing in the close-up.Anyway, yes, it's all agreed that the gouges are a bad thing and must be remedied or compensated for sooner rather than later. Best of luck to you in your dealing with the contractor. Hopefully he will be appalled enough to offer immediately to make it right without you even asking.Steve
Edited 1/13/2008 6:37 pm by mmoogie
"Hopefully he will be appalled enough to offer immediately to make it right without you even asking."
-- I'm hoping. Thank you!
Don't delay bringing that up.I know that if my people had laid that floor damaging the pieces, I would be pizzed to beat hell.Does he know those dings are in it? That his installers ruined the product?
Maybe he used subcontractors and he is getting ready to write them a check for the work.
You make it easier for him to afford to replace it the sooner you bring this problem to his mind.
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"I know that if my people had laid that floor damaging the pieces, I would be pizzed to beat hell.
Does he know those dings are in it? That his installers ruined the product?"
-- I'm sure he's pizzed, or will be. There are a few additional factors that come into play, though. When the contractor started the job, he had three employees, and his intention was only to subcontract a few things, like the poured basement, the cinder block basement, the roofing, the electric, the plumbing, and the rug installation.
One employee disappeared over the fall -- not sure why. A second employee went back home to Georgia about a month ago, possibly because of some sloppy finish work I noticed: he painting a ceiling without a drop cloth and got paint on a rug (fortunately the rug will be replaced this summer) and he also painted over spackle that wasn't finished, right in the main entrance to the house.
The last remaining employeed did the flooring job. Bet the contractor wishes (or will wish) that he had subcontracted that one!
I honestly feel sorry for the guy. His predicament was similar to our own. His wife's mother just died after a long illness, and you can bet that he was distracted from the job because of this. Still, it's hard to believe that the gouges were never noticed during the entire 3-day installation period.
Given his approach to the bulge, I'm not confident that his first impulse at this point will be to do the right thing. I'm afraid that desperation may kick in and lead to unpredictable results.
It may also be that he will fire his last employee. It would be a sad ending if this happened, because I'm sure the employee was not using his own equipment.
"Where did he start running the floor?
At one wall working towards the center of the room?
Or did he start in the center, using a spline to work both ways?"
-- The attached picture shows the over-all flooring project. In the picture, the contractor started on the right-hand side and worked toward the left. The dip is located just to the right of the sliding glass door, about 4' away from the wall.
View Image
Peace out.
"have then take it all out and fix it right...."
-- Yup. I'm planning to wait, though, till everything else is done and he asks for that final check.
If anyone has some wisdom and experience to add, please let me know!
But we know that foam is only a temporary solution. How temporary?
It should be expected to last until he fixes it right, which would be just before he submits his next invoice."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
"It should be expected to last until he fixes it right, which would be just before he submits his next invoice."
-- We're there. His next invoice is his final invoice.
Dave....no way is that acceptable. Not even as a temporary.
And don't wait until he submits his final invoice. Let him know immediately that the problem needs to be addressed correctly BEFORE he even thinks about submitting the final invoice.
If he thinks you are even slightly "OK" with his fudge job, he may try and argue that you are just breaking ballz over the final payment.
The last thing he wants to do is spend the time pulling up that flooring in order to redo it correctly. But you need to let him know now, that anything short of that will not be acceptable.
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
"If he thinks you are even slightly "OK" with his fudge job, he may try and argue that you are just breaking ballz over the final payment."
-- Good tip. Thank you.
Here's the bigger picture: This addition, which is adding 1000 sq ft, plus 500 sq ft of basement, is the biggest addition done to a house in my neighborhood. Many people are talking about it, and several have already come over to do a tour and look at the floor plan. Several have also come over and talked with him while he was outside.
In addition, this house is going to get a lot of attention because of the brand new solar panels which, by the way, were put on the roof of the addition.
If he does a good job so that I can praise him up and down, he's likely to get more work out of this. If not, he could innoculate the entire development from ever hiring him.
I think he realizes this, and when I get into it with him, which will be sooner rather than later, I will tell him that I will be showing this addition off to people all over the neighborhood no matter what, and it is his choice as to what they see.
Edited 1/11/2008 12:44 pm ET by DelawareDave61
tell him that politely with it sounding as a threat or like yur holding a gun to his head...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"tell him that politely with it sounding as a threat or like yur holding a gun to his head..."
-- Yup. Very delicate stuff. Still trying to figure out the best approach.
Right now, I'm thinking of taking the positive route and focusing on the positive interest neighbors have expressed in the project, and how I have talked him up to everyone, which I have.
Not one negative comment to anyone outside of this house, except for this thread.
Leave that out of it. He already knows it and he is not working for the neighborhood, he is working for you. you are the one he needs to do right for and you are the one who is going to be paying him or not.When somebody starts trying to leverage me by talking about the cascade of "other work" I quit listening and so do most other contractors worth their salt. If you think this will have any bearing on what he does, you picked the wrong guy to build this for you.
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Thank you!
what was I thinking....
I act the sane way under the same circumstances....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I think that this is a valid technique.But there is a big difference between."Lots of neighbors have seen the additions and are interested fixing up their places and I want to give a good recommendation on all of the work."vs"If you do it like I want (which might be anything) then I will see that you get more work in the neighborhood".However, I suspect that the for a fine point like this the HO might easily give the wrong idea or the builder might take it the wrong way..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
A big THANK YOU to all the breaktimers who rescued my wife an me from the errors and cut corners left by the contractor who built our addition. Got a lot of useful advice here on the threads, and several of you actually came out to the house and helped (names withheld on request). Even though we're still not done, I thought it was time to let everyone see how far things have come.
You can tell from these photos that the Breaktimers left their mark. The place is almost unrecognizable compared to the photos from last year. But that's only a small part of the story. What these guys did was on par with a cleanup crew from Katrina. Turned a garage that was filled with inherited stuff -- or whatever George Carlin would call it -- into a well-equipped shop. Rooms that were filled with furniture moved from the work area were put back in order, and all of the moved furniture put back.
And then there were the thousand things you can't see, like spotting and repairing a cut truss in the attic, furniture repair, re-framed doors, upgraded wiring...the list goes on.
And then there's the bay window...gonna put those photos on the bay window thread.
Thanks again, to EVERYONE!