this is kinda business, personal, employee, etc.
I thought of it with gunner drunk.
If you running a business and a employee has a complaint, suggestion, grievance. nothing major. like Bob ten minutes late or equpiment being abuse or company truck at bar.
As a employer, how do you take the complaint. Do you wish it never happen, Dont pay attention, tell the help to quit bit*hing. Dont ake it serious.
What happen if its a better way. since its not your idea who cares.
what happen if its a liabilty problem. Dont ask dont tell
Ok. How do you let the employer knows there a problem, assume he knows everything.
Replies
Good topic. it really ought to be in the business folder,IMO, becaue anyone doing any people management needs these kind of policies and skills.
It is a little late tonight for this kind of deeper thinking and writing, but I will look for the thread again tomorrow. Glad you brought it up! Lots of good stuff there.
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got to kinda of think the boss has to set the tone..
what is his idea about company truck outside the bars ? or bob 10 minutes late ?
me.. i used to get bent about stuff like that...
now.. i figure.. hey, we have laws.. and they're not being broken.. so maybe i oughta get a life..
do i prefer that the company truck is not outside a bar ?.. you bet... but it's after work... not during the work day .. so......
as for tardiness..... i would have lost my most valuable worker two years ago if i clamped down on that .... so.....
day by day... if we're all on the same page.. i try to inspire rather than ride herdMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I am fairly rigid on tardiness. Its ok if you plan it but I want to be able to count on you if you work for me and being on time is a big deal.
Truck outside the bar? I live in an area where the best eating spots are usually bars and half the contractors eat there so no issue really. I do expect you to obey the law with the truck and avoid the road rage and I try to follow the same.
Liability and safety are other areas where I want it right.
But as was stated above the owner/boss sets the tone of how things go. If the boss doesn't listen to suggestions or concerns he can expect to not hear things. I try to always listen, then based on what my view of the big picture is I make the decision. And then I communicate it to the person who brought it to me. Both the decision and the reason. DanT
Same here .
I had a finisher/taper who went through a divorce and took a long time to be normal again. Sometimes working 8 hours and sometimes 4 hrs or not at all. We had a long talk and I told him he didnt need to leave me in a bind , so Im not scheduleing any more big work for him to do. So, he takes the small stuff and made me money. It worked out and he came back full time to run work for me . Woulda been a big mistake to have said goodbye to him in the beginning of the trouble. .
Tim
I hate to start off saying "it depends" ... but it does.
If an employee has a suggestion that might improve the efficiency, you could ignore that. Or a petty complaint about playing a radio too loud.
But if an empliyee complains about another employee drinking on the job, or showing up drunk, and you ignore that, then you could be in for some serious doo-doo if the drunk harms someone on the job and the lawyer shows you had prior warning.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
way too many variables for any kind of meaningful response.
But two generic thoughts come to mind:
Even though employee griping is a huge pita, better that they should feel they can come to you than not, because if they don't tell you what's going on, you're the only guy in the room who won't know.
Whatever you choose to do, whether something or nothing, make it a choice. Each situation is different, but even if you choose to ignore it, CHOOSE to ignore it. It's your business. It's your choice.
SHG
For every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
"Whatever you choose to do, whether something or nothing, make it a choice. Each situation is different, but even if you choose to ignore it, CHOOSE to ignore it. It's your business. It's your choice.""not to decide, is to decide"
J. Joplin
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
I tell my kids that deciding to do nothing is still a decision.The heck, you say?
I do not approach each similar event in the same manner.
I do listen to my employees. I try to understand their problems, and let them give me ideas about different ways to do something.
I confront them on things like tardiness and review my expectations. If the problems repeats several times...maybe they lose their job. I certainly would not want my employees taking a company vehicle bar hopping, and I would confront them on the stupidity if the incident occured.
I am sure I have been a real SOB in years past, but maturity, better understanding, more patience, wisdom and a general desire to create and maintain good relationships with all has made me different.
I have to agree with Tex, it depends.
I have worked for hard-azzes who are totally out of the loop. I personally think of myself as not hard enough with my employees, but I know when they are just griping and when they really are asking for something else.
I said something this AM to one of my guys who likes to leave his personal trash not only litterd on the job, but in my truck. He made a big deal of "picking it up." Whatever...one will eventually learn that not looking like slobs will make potential clients think, "Hmm, they clean up after themselves; maybe that's who I'd like to do ____." The same guy makes it a point to let everyone else on the crew know he's the best hunter/carpenter/whatever you say there is.
My other guy has been tardy several times but is quickly proving himself as wanting to learn and better himself; he doesn't think he's greater than everyone else. That in and of itself is good enough for me to want to try and train him new things.
My old boss had a saying that may be appropriate: "I'm not in business to make friends; I'm in business to make money."Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
that what I mean, It not major stuff just everyday griping. Do as a foreman (not owner) listen to it or want to be kept out of the loop. Something minor can lead to major stuff. little stuff. like people goofing off, not taking out trash. not sweeping up, leaving early, talking on phone all day, just little stuff.. 2+3=7
brown...
you're the boss's rep.. if you are in a supervisory position, then it's up to you to supervise..
you set the tone, you set the pace, you enforce the rules
if your boss won't back you, you should have a conversation with him and find out what his priorities are...
the slackers come and go, the ones who are serious about a job / career understand what a supervisor does and what rules are forMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Jason---- you have talked about the guy who leaves his trash around before, I think.
Personally------ I will take a lesser talent/lower ability guy who is pleasant to be around every time
I don't care how good your sloppy guy is------- I couldn't stand to be around him long term----he'd be gone.
Steve, I know where you're coming from...the guy-in-question will not be receiving any further raise until he steps up and proves he is not only capable, but professional about the way he conducts himself. Right now, we're rebuilding the front of my parents' vacation house, and it's in the boondocks, and we have no sign out, yet even I am surprised at how many people stop by and say, "Man we noticed the quality of your work." Would they say that if we never policed ourselves and our site? I hope not!
This particular guy (he's almost 20) also has the "it was anybody but me" attitude when he does something incorrectly. That's gonna have to go before he can expect more money!Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
I've switched from almost 20 yrs S/E to working as an employee about 4 mos. now.
An employer need to have and clearly communicate crystal clear expectations across the board so that everyone agrees and understand the same set of rules and protocols throughout the organization.
The company need to put on a unified appearance.
If a policy is not in place regarding any one issue, then it needs to be listened to and understood fully before any action (if) is taken.
Do I see this where I am employed?? Hell no.
I'm not talking about running a Stalag; just getting everyone on the same bus going in the same direction.
How about feild employees offering suggestions on better production and client handling practices??
That would be my big question here. My boss is so out of the loop of what it is like in the feild it's a joke. The designer is STILL running wall cabinets into the windows even after I spoke to them both repeatedly. Go figure.
EricIt's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
[email protected]
Construction is one of those quirky industries that is a collection of all kinds of people with all levels of professionalism and skill.
At all levels within a profession there are situations that are either your problem or not. Learning to differentiate between the two is essential to our original discussion. This is also a skill that needs to be taught to those coming up through the ranks.
When Joe continually "forgets" to get his nail gun repaired that's his problem and I don't want the younger carps to get sucked into his pisss hole by trying to share a gun or something just as stupid and cutting their productivity for his unpreparedness.
When Tim comes to work Saturday morning nearly drunk, all I will say is, "This is entirely your problem today. Next time it becomes my problem."
Personally, I view the lead carps of my peer group as being every bit as professional as an architect, doctor or lawyer. We don't fork the dog when the boss is off site and we don't put up with people that do.
As such, I'm seen as a difficult person to work with by most carpenters that are in this just for a check, or until something better comes along. So be it.
When someone isn't doing what they should be my response is determined by my relationship to the contractor and the goof off.
As a basic carp not in charge of keeping others in line I distance myself from the goof offs and focus on production. If the problem is chronic and not being properly taken care of by those being paid to do such things, I'll touch base with the boss and ask him what he thinks of the lack of supervision (not of the goof off's behavior). Sometimes the boss knows about the problem and has reasons for putting up with it, sometimes he's clueless, and sometimes it's something in-between.
I'd like to say there are always clear answers, but there aren't. A boss who is enabling a drinking problem, or whatever kind of problem, is doing so because he wants to, so who am I to tell him how to run his company. I can vote with my feet if it bothers me enough. Informing him was the right thing to do. What he does with the information is his business.
As a supervisory employee (lead carp/forman) it's my job to help others be productive, ensure quality and to get along with others--sometimes helping them pull their head from buttt. For small everyday things this doesn't have to include the boss, since he has hired me to take care of the ordinary stuff. The boss doesn't and shouldn't have to hear every small situation, even if he says he wants to. Part of my job is using discretion to keep comments up and down the chain relevant, constructive and in context.
For more serious things that can't be resolved with my influence I'll give a recommendation to the big guy, usually to help the wayward employee find another source of income that they would enjoy more.
I suggest a lead carpenter has a higher standard of conduct than a non-supervisory carp and should deal with problems that arise with other lead carps or others despite the fact that they aren't in my group or under my control. I'll inform a lead if one of their carps is goofing off--then it's no longer my problem.
If another lead carp is forking the dog and the boss is aware of it, then it's not my problem. If the boss doesn't have a clue I'll simply say that it appeared to me that something isn't right and leave it at that. It's not up to me to nail a lead on particulars, but I'll give the heads up so the boss can do it for himself.
Once upon a time I called BS on a lazy lead carp. At first I couldn't figure out how they were getting so much done when my crew wasn't around and when we were it was us doing most of the work. He made a science out of always being in the right place to volunteer for odd assignments that were hard to estimate, especially whatever the boss wasn't familiar with.
Then he would make up problems to solve, which of course meant it would take more time. Then he would find a way to have my crew finish what they started so it was even harder to pin down his productivity. If he couldn't get out of a job he'd ask for additional laborers or young carps to help complete the project on time and then use the part timers as slave labor while his crew forked the dog.
Out of town jobs were always his specialty since it was even easier to make up things and get away with it. He always had the right tool for a job and wanted everyone to use his tools since they were handy--and so he could stop whatever he was doing and slowly find said tool.
Every month he would injure his back on the job and go to the docs office (on the clock), but he told to boss that he didn't want to file a workers comp claim and be seen as a problem employee--and the boss was suckered every time. Doc visit = 4 paid hours for sitting around.
Roading equipment was another specialty since there were always good excuses for doing nothing and complaining the whole time how hard it was. Don't even get me started on the numerous smoke breaks.
After identifying all the above over the course of 6 months and roughly determining that the guy and his crew only worked 75% of the time I spelled it out for the boss and he was dumbfounded. He confirmed it for himself and the only thing that happened was I was given the third degree for telling him! It seemed that he held something against me for two months. It was still the right thing to do. Go figure.
:-)
Cheers,
Don
As an employee, I was the late guy. Showing up five-ten-twenty minutes late. Company started at 7, ended at 3:30 for construction crew, office staff (which I was) came in at 7, off at 4. Boss chewed me out several times for being late, even though I was staying there until 5 most nights to get things done or make up for it.
So I got sick of it. Decided to show up at 6:45 every morning, without fail. I also decided to not stay so late anymore owing to trying to have a life outside work (girlfriend, sports, etc.). S.O.B. started getting on my case for leaving right at 4 when he was still sitting in the office. What bugged me most was, I was on salary and it didn't matter one bit if I put in 30 or 50 hours, he wanted 9 hour days out of me and was paying for 8.
So I quit, started up my own, and my employees have always had a habit of being late. I never say a word, they make up for the time, and everything's cool. I'm not out to make someone's life tough by giving them a hard time if they take an extra five in the morning to recover from the previous night out. If they HAVE to be at a certain place at a certain time, I will make it crystal clear the day before. No excuses then.
As for the co. truck at the bar - bad idea. You drink, your vehicle, your time. No way somebody is going to have a few beers and get in a company vehicle and go anywhere. Think of the liability issues - the insurance company, if something happens, will bite your a$$ off.
Equipment abuse, well that's something that depends on the situation. Tool allowances help that problem - if you want to beat up your own junk, go for it. If you beat on the company tools, once shot, you don't get the chance again, it comes out of your pay. If you are caught doing something stupid, the maintenance fee comes out of either your check or your tool allowance if you have one. I take really good care of my equipment, and I expect anyone who works for me to do the same. No exceptions.
Brownbagg,
A lot of good responses so far with much to ponder.
When I read this I am approaching from the employers side. I'm very interested in knowing how my guys are performing, how stable they are, demeanor around clients, etc. We do what we can to maintain an appropriate work environment but also try to keep away from feeling like the stalag that Eric mentioned.
One situation we had to deal with recently was an employee who seemed to have a chip on his shoulder about a more junior employee. He was definetely the superior but at the same time we expect a good bit from the junior employee to so it's not a typical lead/helper relationship.
We observed a number of instances the showed us that the senior employee did not like the other guy, both through comments made directly to us (he's lazy, he screwed up, etc.) and also observing their demeanor around each other.
At this point I don't know which side we should have taken and probably never will. The reason I'm bringing this up is that it's important for the boss to know what's going on but also to know that even if there are problems at work that the employees can work them out.
From the bosses perspective, IdahoDon has a very good way of handling it. In the past year and a half since starting the company, my business partner and I have had many issues that we have had to work through with employees. I used to be more ridgid but now I'm focusing on the balance of working with what we have but still being able to achieve our goals.
Mike Smith and Blue (and a few others) have changed my thinking considerably when I see that they are willing to let tardiness or other issues slide. We're in remodeling which forces you to make the best of every situation presented. Optimal conditions rarely exist. I take the same view with employees. We need to maximize the potential of each individual and also maximize how many of our goals we achieve as a company.
So find a way to express concern but also realize that there are probably a myriad of forces pulling at your boss, and even if he knows there is a problem sometimes he has to wait for the right solution to present itself.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA