You are all a great resource!
In planning to build my hunting cabin, I am pretty set on building it on Piers, not a poured foundation wall. Being a cabin that will get used occasionally and not a full time live in, Im thinking of the problems I may have to face. One is freezing pipes. If the power were to go off, Id have no way to know. So I need to deal with a simple way to drain plumbing in winter…any ideas?
Second is running water lines under the floor. The kitchen is not back to back with a bathroom so I hve to choose eiter run pipes in outside wall or under the floor. Being on piers, will the pipes not freeze if the cabin heat is on? How would you close in from the floor joists down to soil line? How would you insulate?
Replies
Where is this cabin?
You can bet your sweet bibby those pipes are going to freeze slung under the floor.
Domestic water or well? Put in a hydrant valve for when no one is home and heat tapes for when the famoly is in. Use PEX for an edge when it comes to freezing.
The hydrant will drain your lines when asked to.
Here is a bit more information. Location is western Missouri so we get cold. I will use it often, not just on a once or twice a year basis but I live 50 miles away. That sort of precludes using antifreeze.
From the plans it does in fact appear I can route the water lines inside if I go through a cieling. That will address the issue of lines in unheated space.
Your ideas...all of you are excellent and I do appreciate it a lot. I can bring the main waterline in under the building and am thinking of using a 30 gallon barrel with both ends cut out to run pile in, then fill with fiberglass insulation and wrap pipe in electric heat tape. I figure the 30 inch diameter hole, 4 feet deep will give enough ground source heat to keep pipe from freezing should the electricity fail.
I also like the idea of a line drain and can plumb in a drain away from the cabin that would be below the lowest point of the cabin. I can shut off the main line, open the drain, and open all interior spigots to break the vac. I can also set it up with a water heater drain as well.
Insulating between Piers will be a bit of a task but Im considering using treated plywood on treated 2x4 from the bottom of the rim to soil level. Then insulate with DowBoard.
Any issues I need to be thinking of?
Edited 8/17/2003 5:25:52 PM ET by Wooddust
altho I have no personal experience, I have seen plans that place water utilities in a insulated pit under the house with trap door access from inside the cabin - put the water heater there and it will provide enough heat to keep the area above freezing - plumb with pex with design for draining (as others have detailed), put the manifold in the pit with one plug that drains the pipes - maybe a thermostatically controlled light bulb (two, actually) - -
woody... why piers ?
if you can do a full or crawlspace with block, you'll be way ahead in all respects
here's ours in NH.. 24x32, built it in '75.. just doing an overlay on the roof..
it gets down to -10, but we drain the lines, and pour anti freeze in the traps
full basement ( but a head knocker )
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I agree with you . A block foundation is no big deal and really an investment because of resale factor. We always talk about a limit of saving money that goes backwards. I think this is one such issue. No one keeps a cabin forever. You were looking past the question to a better alternative.
It doesnt really matter what something costs as long as you can afford it and it will sell for a profit.
Tim Mooney
Edited 8/17/2003 9:23:35 PM ET by Tim Mooney
hi, tim.. good to see you..
i was just wondering why he wants posts.. i can see not having a poured foundation... but a block foundation is usually doable .. even in remote sitesMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
The reason I was going piers was cost control. I can dig the piers because I have a 12" post hole auger tractor mounted and can get 4 feet deep with no problem. I assumed...I know, don't assume, that I could do the piers and not have to deal with a footing and hire a mason to do poured short walls or footings or hire a backhoe. But you have a workable Idea.
The location is in a woods but im fortunate to have rural water (city water) available and Im Electric coop and can have the power run to the site.
If I were to go with a block wall, what would I need for footings...depth? Or is there an option of a combination of a pier system and black where I wouldnt need a footing under the block?
Its great to have such excellent consultants!
I did a 20X24 cabin 5 years ago with post and beam. This on a heavily wooded hillside with 42" of clay loam over limestone. SE MN. Dug the holes by hand. Bottomed the 4X5 treated posts on the limestone...typical spacing and dimensions for the beams and floor joists. The floor system is 2X8s on 16" Cs with 1/2" OSB on the bottom.
We built the floor in 4 foot sections, hanging off the beams, gun-nailing the OSB to the bottom of the joists as we went. Nailed treated 1X4 over the seams in the OSB. Slid a finished section up on the beams and kept sliding the ever-larger floor on until it was done. Last slide need a few blows from a big sledge to get into final position. Filled the joist bays with FG and decked over with 3/4" T&G ply.
Whole cabin is still level and plumb after 5 winters. No sign of frost heaving. No critters got in. When we add on this fall, I'm going to put a curtain wall out of a 2" rigid/treated ply sandwich buried 12" deep and nailed to the floor framing to close off the crawl space that will remain open on 1 1/2 sides after the addition PTW foundation goes in.
This is on a really well-drained site with bedrock at frost depth, so the system worked for us....reason for the post and beam originally was to minimize the amount of tree removal we would have had in order to dig footings for a masonry foundation, and also saved $ as DW and I dug all the holes over a few weekends.
Footing ; Its not as expensive as you think. A tiller will do part of the job if you want to sweat it out. A small backhoe at a rental yeard runs about 165.00 per weekend counting a days use of 8 hours. If you want to be there with transit a backhoe comany will dig it in two hours easily . Call to get price. I live below you , so the prices should be inline. I priced blocks today and they are 96 cents delivered. They cover 8x16 and you can figgure the footage off that. Im going to say you need to be 12 inches deep and then grade dirt up on the block for drainage and insulation of footing to about another foot. If I remember you guys get in the minus figgures. The blocks can be layed by you and I cant think of a better job to start. Buy a book. Your first job peobably wont be pretty but what does it matter on a rustic cabin that wasnt going to have any foundation ? Mixing mud by hoe and barrow is not a big deal either as slow as you will be . I think it takes about 5 minutes to mix a bag of pre mixed.
The most important part is the value of your cabin as it will pay dividends when you sell.
One option is laying a rock foundation from the footing up to sill. Thats the way they did it in the old days around here. I have seen many old houses with rock foundations and footers layed from native stone and portland . [not masonary] You need to due correct work to level out the sill, but its not too bad either. What makes native stone work is that it is weaved with rock and portland . Plenty solid enough for a light house with out brick veneer.
Have fun !
Tim Mooney
an option of a combination of a pier system and blcck
There are always options. Mind you, when you said "pier" I was thinking sonotube up to the beam height. Not that hard to fill block between the piers.
That being said, I'd go with a block perimeter wall. You'll need a footing, probably 8x16" at whatever depth is appropriate for frost concerns. (I'm guessing that, if you are close enough for city water/electric, that you can get rural delivery of redi-mix concrete; 20x40' is about 4 yards of concrete.) I like at least 3 course of block out of the ground for a good crawlspace.
Why block? Bunch of reasons. The cells of the block can be filled with perlite to add insulating value (which also helps address the winterizing of the pipes). Another point is that we can put termite sheild over the block and under the mudsill (a real good idea for an only-periodically occupied cabin). If appearance is an issue, you can get split face. I'd use cultured stone, mostly for the "old timey" look of a hand laid rock foundation (without having to rake the neighboring fields for stones).
The other way to slove the appearance issue is to just hang decks all around the house. The house gets useful decks, and no one see the foundation. Put some nice single V-drip roof over the porches for the warm Missouri summers, too.
But that's just my opinion.
Plan on varmints being an issue mice and squirrels love these type cabins put plates and food in steel garbage can. What are you going to use for heat and how are you getting power? Build an outdoor mudroom to take gear off before you come inside.Gun racks so guns aren't leaned against wall(DON'T ASK). What are you going to do about two legged varmint? If you are going to have water are you putting in a well and what kind of septic system?
ANDYSZ2I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
design and install all water lines to pitch for drainage. Then you will be openning one stop and drain and the valves when you kill the supply for the season.
Don't forget a little RV antifreeze in the traps, toilet tank, and washing machine pump.
Install the water heater so it can be accessed for draining. A smalll house done right can be winterized in half an hour.
What some folks here do is run plastic stapled to the base down to ground to keep some of the earth's heat in under there during winter.
Excellence is its own reward!
My preference is in the walls so you could get drainage slope in the plumbing pipes... at least 1/8" @ foot up to 1/4" @ foot for horizontal runs. Keep it at minimum code distance from the inside wall covering and remove all insulation between the pipe and the inside of the wall.
PEX is more freeze tolerant, but it sags, (bad for drainage,) so you would have to place a 'shelf' (1x2) under the PEX in each bay.
8" studs with blown in cellulose.
Vapor barrior under the subfloor, FG in the joist bays, landscape cloth and 1/4" wire mesh tacked to the bottom of the floor joists.
A different issue is getting the water main from the ground into the cabin without it's freezing.
I'm thinking an outside type self-draining hose spigot (but there may be something made just for this.) I would place this in a piece of 12" sched 40 pvc filled with small strofoam beads. Put some landscape cloth over the french drain gravel to keep the beads and concrete cap from flowing into the gravel. Run the PVC right up to the subfloor.
Glue a repair bushing flush with the bottom of the PVC and run 2 #4 rebars thru the bushing and pipe 2" from the end, pour a 4" concrete cap over the french drain gravel and the rebar to prevent freeze/thaw uplifting.
Replumb the (small) hot water tank so cold water feeds in at the drain fitting.
Do your layout carefully so the valve exits the floor just outside an interior kitchen wall.
If the interior waterpipes all have slope towards the feeds, as soon as you turn off the main and open all interior fixture valves, (and flush the toilet) the whole system will drain into the french drain at the bottom of the main cutoff.
Finally, pour some nontoxic antifreeze into each drain and the toilet.
Good hunting and I want a deer haunch and heart for consulting fees :>)
SamT
You dont mention where you are located which makes a big difference in the answer. Your location is not in profile.
I winterize houses for the public . If Im going to take their money , I have to be sure. For about 100.00 you can buy a tank and pump thats made to put on a four wheeler . You have probably seen them. They are the same deal as a camper trailer pumping up about 60 lbs pressure. Fill the tank with RV antifreeze , not diluted. I believe its better than 60 below .
Make it possible to by pass hot water tank with a loop and cutoffs to the tank on both sides . Drain the tank . Hook up pump with garden hose to out side outlet . Run both hot and cold water out lets until color starts. I use about 5 gallons which is recoverable . You will waste about a gallon the next spring. 3 something a gallon if I remember correctly. Once the loop is made at hot water tank , I can do a home in 15 minutes. Dont forget the cammode and sink drains . In your case a spigot would be needed out side the cabin in the ground inside a 12 inch plastic pipe with cover , not a freeze proff faucet which will leak off.
Cost ;
20.00 for additional cutoff and loop.
15.00 for out side cutoff and peice of pipe with cover.
100.00 for pressure tank you cant use to spray other stuff .
This is the very same as a camper trailer or RV. 15 minutes and you are in business or out of business. Takes longer to drain a big tank than it does winterize.
Tim Mooney
Wood,
I won't repeat the excellent suggestions on the drainable plumbing system.
I will, however suggest that you rethink the pier idea. I built my cabin on piers and while it works fine it has created a real problem in keeping the skunks, raccoons, possum, groundhogs and other guests out of the underside of the cabin. Also, unless you sheath in the crawlspace side of the floor the smaller animals will get into the insulation,and some insulation will inevitably fall out due to wind etc.
If I had to do it again I would spend the extra bucks to put in a block crawlspace foundation. If you feel you must go with piers, make them high enough to get easy access under the cabin. Not 1-2 feet, this is exactly what the varmits want. I'd go a least 3-4 feet which may look kinda funny and leads me back to the block stemwall as the best idea.
Good luck
woody... western MO... what's your frost depth ?.. that's how deep your footings have to be..
if the soil is sandy, or gravel.. or a good bearing soil.. not too much clay..
the footings could be 10" d x 16" w..... local conditions vary..
6 blocks high will give a 4' crawl...
10 blocks will give you a 6' -8" head knocker... 12 blocks will give you a nice 8'...
a cabin in the woods, with a MO winter, a block foundation will probably NOT freeze ( probably )..
another thing... the biggest problem is digging the hole.. pouring footings and laying block , you can do yourself... and get pretty proficient as you go... you may even want a nice stone or brick fireplace if you get inspired..
for the amount of use it sounds like you are going to give it... i'd spend the time , labor & money on a full block foundation...
you will be pretty glad if you do.....Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"woody... western MO... what's your frost depth ?.. that's how deep your footings have to be.."
Woody lives above me . Their temps are as low as -10 with quite a bit of wind chill.
Tim Mooney
Why not use ICF blocks ? Like the leggo style . I have seen some that flaire out to add a brick ledge or to make the wall thinner . they could be used on a small cabin as a formed in place footing / foundation combo.
You could save time and your back with foam blocks then call the readymix truck and pour the wall /footing in one shot. Put a cabin on top and you have a well insulated crall space.
You may want to have a real foundation and bolt the cabin down securely. A fellow that built a prefab cabin in the Calif. Sierras got a lot of publicity recently when he discovered that someone had carted off the cabin. Eventually, another company that makes prefab cabins donated one to him to replace the one that was stolen.
http://beta.kpix.com/news/local/2003/08/01/House_Burglars_Take_Everything_%2D%2D_Including_the_House.html
Hi
The other threads re sloping and draining apply. It all has to drain down to one point. Also varmit control under the foundation is a necessity. Used to have a cabin north of Montreal Quebec on the lake at Mont Tremblant. The climate was very cold in the winter down to minus 35o farenheight. A friend had a cabin for occasional use. He didn't want to heat it( or suffer the consequences of a failure) so his system was to arrive, heat the main cabin-wood stove and then take a gasoline pump to a hole drilled in the lake with the pre-warmed water hose from inside. He had installed a 55 gallon drum in the reinforced attic which he then filled. His water was the gravity fed to various locations. At the end he would drain it all lock up and leave. hope this helps