California Valley: are they kosher?
jimAKAblue
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
I think Tim once posted pics, or maybe someone else did, of the valley technique where shingles, or starter shingles are laid parallel to the valley and the shingles are starte with the lowest point at that line. There is no cutting involved at the valley.
Does this void the warranty?
Replies
That technique was in the last issue. It was Tamkos way of doing a valley.
They're not kosher if the rabbi didn't supervise.....
Are you referring to a Stiletto valley?
yes
Jim;
I'm not sure what a Stiletto valley is, but I do recall seeing one of the shingle packages where instructions for closed valleys were right on the back of the package.
If they put it on their plastic and give instructions, I think the warranty is still safe (as long as you follow their instructions).
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Stilleto presented that a few years ago. I tried it on a few projects and it worked out nicely. No long angular cuts on in the valleys and the the lines stays real nice.
Smitty uses them. That is endorsement enough for me.He showed a stilleto valley in his gable dormer makeover thread last winter.No Tag
Anybody have a link to some pictures? I'm finally putting my roof on Monday and am interested.
Stiletto posted good photos of one more than a year ago. I'll try and dig it up today if no one else can find it. If you are going closed valley it's a neat alternative.
Try these for photos and explanations of the Stiletto valleyhttp://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=84099.37http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=88685.31http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=92880.95'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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Thank you sir.
Heres a pic of an existing valley.
My question is not if it works. I belive that it would. I also believe that it will save a lot of waste. I just need to know if someone knows if it voids the warranties of any or all of the major manufacturers.
I know I would do it on my own home and I wouldn't worry one lick about the manufacturer's warranty but I can't be that cavalier with other people's roofs.
After 40 years i did my first one like that, The new Comp is so thick its hard to cut, I was very pleased with this way of doing it, I dont think i would ever do it on 3 tabs but have seen old roofs done like that, I just may do it this way now. As far as a woven valley with 50 year comp its to heavy unless on lives in a hot climate, To cold here for them to lay with the curve here except for a few days. I was very pleased with less cutting , In fact i went to large tin snips to cut, This way i could keep a straight line, use all the small pieces and go a whole lot faster.
I would do it on 3 tabs if it meets the warranty requirements.
Jim,
I am pretty sure I read it as an accepted technique in Certainteed's Shingle Application Manual (SAM) online about a year ago. I just tried looking it up to provide a link but can't find it online anymore.... have to order the SAM.
"My question is not if it works.... I just need to know if someone knows if it voids the warranties of any or all of the major manufacturers."
Ha, ha. You just want your question answered. Come on - how long have you been at BT?
I'm kinda new here. I think Piff has been here longer along with a few others.
Well, since you're a new guy and all, Certainteed has this in their tech specs:http://www.certainteed.com/resources/classichorizontds.pdfIs a Stiletto valley a cut valley?Personally, and nothing against Matt, I like woven... especially with architectural shingles... that straight line just looks cheesy to me.http://www.tvwsolar.com
We'll have a kid
Or maybe we'll rent one
He's got to be straight
We don't want a bent one
He'll drink his baby brew
From a big brass cup
Someday he may be president
If things loosen up
Iko won't warranty their shingles used in any closed valley.
Welcome to BT by the way.
Edited 8/1/2009 6:20 pm ET by fingersandtoes
Iko won't warranty their shingles used in any closed valley.
Then how come they show it their installation manual?
IV:VALLEYS
One may follow either the Open, Woven or
Closed Cut method for shingle application in
the roof valleys.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
That is strange. I'm going by their Product Bulletin (R-49). In part it reads:
"IKO has recommended for the last several years that open metal valleys should be used on all our shingle installations... IKO does not warranty shingles in the valley area such as would occur in a closed or woven valley.
Looks like their warranty is worthless. That bulletin is dated May 2006. The installation manual is dated "2006".http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
To be honest the bulletin is so poorly worded I wasn't sure I was interpreting it correctly.
My guess would be that the graunules wear off in the valley quicker than the main part of the roof.
I haven't seen any open valleys being done for the last 15 years. I guess if it's a problem, it should be showing up soon.
recently I was on an IKO roof we did in about '98 with closed valleys. The ones in the 6" center of valley carrying the water were prematurely aged fro water coursing. I was glad we used both I&W and metal behind those shingles.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
IIRC, your previous incarnation as blue-eyed-devil was old before I found this forum!;)Jim you ask if this method voids warrantee, but there are in fact two different warrantees on a roof. Which one are you asking about?That was a rhetorical Q - I already know.But I think you are confusing the two.The manufacturer gaurantees the shingle it self to perform as intended, but it is the Roofer who bears the burden of gauranteeing the ROOF overall, and not just the manufactured product.
There are some programs where a manufacturer also steps in with coverage of the overall when installed by one of their approved certified installers in accordance with their book. Those books are an inch or two thick, and if you are a certified installer you have it. The answer is in there.Otherwise, YOU are the guarantor of the roof, so YOU have the answer to whether this is an approved install method because YOU are the guy who approves and denies it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I know we guarantee the installation and that warranty is separate from the product warranty. I was just wondering if that method voided the product warranty. Evidently, it does not.
If you haven't read the latest GAF warranty lately, you probably should. It's a hoot.
As far as longevity here: I thought you were here when Gore invented the internet.
I'll have to check that with grant.He invented Algore
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Jim -
I've been doing my valleys like that for 15+ years. I've not seen any authorization for installing the valleys that way, nor have I seen any warnings not to do it. This question came up with my Certainteed rep when I had a warranty claim on a color match 5 or 6 years ago. He'd never seen it done before and said he'd spread the word about that trick.
A couple of years ago, someone brought up the warranty issue. I called my rep and his take was it was OK as long as the proper stagger was maintained on the opposite end. He'd been showing other roofers how to do it. The installation instructions don't say you can do it, but they don't say you can't. From what I gather, Tamko has it in their installation guide. I haven't looked for it yet, so I don't know for sure.
There are lots of techniques most shinglers use that are not specifically laid out in the install manuals. http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Thanks for that answer Grant. Yours carries the most authoritative answer so far.
I haven't perused the certainteed or tamko manuals because we've only installed GAF so far and one Atlas job.
I kinda was thinking that they wouldn't specifically disallow the valley technique because I can't conceive of why it is wrong. I have a new crew that I'm trying out and they use this technique. I wasn't going to allow them to use it but now I think I will.
My experience with GAF is that you don't have any warranty to begin with.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
So for the curious, what's the benefit of doing a closed or woven valley?I'm imagining that it trims the install time, but is there a reason that I'd want it as a consumer? Thought I recalled from a discussion a few years back that they wind up attracting debris, but if you are in a tree-free landscape it's not a big deal.Fewer leaks than a metal valley?If I keep asking questions I can keep putting off fun with drywall.'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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They're cheaper to install than an open valley. And they've become the norm in subdivision land just like vinyl siding. Done right, they work fine. Done wrong, they leak, just like any other roof component. I prefer open valleys, but if I'm given a set of plans that specs closed valleys, then I have to do closed valleys or I won't be doing valleys at all. They don'r look right on a Queen Anne. They look fine on a ranch house. My humble opinion.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
The rabbinical building council has declared that nothing can be kosher without the paid supervision of a rabbi. The affair will be cartered by a deli chosen by the rabbi. His lovely sister (who's still single and quite a catch) will serve the knishes while singing show tunes from Barbara Striesand movies.
I like a woven valley - no cutting at all, mostly -
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=103469.1
Forrest - not a roofer