Sales on the slow down, suits looking improve the bottom line. Been a Copper man for ever. Everbody else is using this stuff ( so I am told) . Been using flex duct on the HVAC systems for 3 years now. Think its JUNK!
Now we got to change on the plumbing. Guess it won’t be long till we say Good Bye to the black gas pipe.
Vanex PEX is a superior alternative to copper for plumbing systems. So says their web site.
Guess another one rides the Bus!
Replies
Here is the site....
http://www.vanguardpipe.com/
You're old school.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Part of the problem trying new (to me) products is that I am putting my name on them. There are enough challenges building things to last 100 years without trying the latest, greatest innovation, only to find myself associated with something like the LP siding disaster.
But. I have to say. This last house we remodelled stem to stern now has PEX type water lines and I think there is a lot to be said for them. And the plumber who convinced me they are better than copper is a friend who I believe, as well as a true professional, and I trust his judgement.
All that being said, I hope he's right.
I must admit that I'm not a great fan of manifold systems installed like this either. It troubles me that all the loops have the same pipe diameter regardless of appliance need and that you cannot implement a simple gravity-based recirculation system at all. Never mind all the pressure drop that has to be overcome somehow.
That said, it would be nifty to have one of these distribution heads in the corner of each bathroom so that you could shut off each appliance individually as needed without access panel at the appliance. Trouble is, how large is the addressable market of engineers who'd want this? :-P
The debate of PEX vs. Copper in potable water can go either way, they both have their advantages and disadvantages. The only "real" decision-maker/breaker is likely the result of local water conditions that favor one over the other. Some water or soil conditions will eat Copper alive.. that said, the potable water distribution system in my home (installed in 2004) is almost all-copper. Welcome to MA.
I agree that flex duct is trash but disagree to put it in the same category as PEX. That material, like all others, has a specific range of applications at which it's very, very good at. Floor heating with copper just ain't going to happen much anymore...
As for CSST vs. black pipe, I couldn't agree more. For me, the CSST is only good (at best) as a means to mechanically separate a humming appliance from the gas distribution system.
Pex by Wirsbo¯ is pretty much the only thing I would put in my house, other than copper.
& No way on the Manibloc™ They don't have shut offs at the fixtures.
Hey what looks better the ¯ or the ™
silly keyboard tricks
So, why are they putting the entire system IN the wall? Wouldn't this make more sense being exposed externally?
Isn't the idea that you put an access panel over the manifold?
True...but is pulling Pex anything like pulling electrical?Every install I've seen of pex heating like this had everything on the OUTSIDE of the wall in a utility room or basement. Just seems a lot easier to maintain over time.
Constatin,
Do you know what if any applications using PEX are allowable under MA code? I'm building my own place in MA and interested in PEX where appropriate.
Thanks
Skippy
Skippy, I just added a second floor to my house in MA. We used PEX for all the bathroom fixtures feeds (two full baths, and a laundry room) as well as a hot feed from the boiler and cold feed from the condenser unit to the air handler in the attic. All work inspected and code compliant in good ole Massachesetts.
Edited 12/28/2005 7:06 pm ET by dieselpig
IIRC, the MA code is now updated to the point where PEX can be used in potable water applications w/o a Variance signed by the local plumbing board. Our house renovation started too early that I wanted to put my schedule at risk due to the "newness" of PEX in our area, the tribulations that a non-standard install could entail, etc.That being said, I doubt that the AquaSafe system is approved yet, something that you could investigate if you'd like to have that extra bit of security in your home.
Skippy,
As a matter of consequnce, if you are presently "building your own place" and you have no idea what is or isn't in the applicable Codes, you should stop construction and obtain the necessary codes. This will help you to get it right the first time. Codes cost money to buy and are sometimes difficult to comprehend, but building any house without a good working knowledge of all of the Codes is illadvised. Consider it good insurance for passing inspections and your family's safety.
Tim,
In the great Commonwealth of Massachusetts a licensed plumber is required so my interest is purely so I can be an informed consumer of someone elses services. So when I say building my own place I mean I'm paying someone else to do the work for me.
but building any house without a good working knowledge of all of the Codes is ill advised. Consider it good insurance for passing inspections and your family's safety.
The codes are only minimums based on a mandate of public health and safety (at the lowest levels) and structural sufficiency so that (1) we have relatively safe houses and (2) those at lower income levels may be able to afford a house and that public housing, co-ops are not too expensive .
I would not build any house "just to the codes" as you're asking for problems down the line. If you're learning the codes just to pass inspections, take a bit more time to learn where codes lack.
"The codes are only minimums based on a mandate of public health and safety ...."
I agree completely, but when one is unaware of what the minimum requirements contain, seems like starting out in hole that will get deeper.
SOME Codes are very prescriptive in that they go beyond "minimums". The NEC for residential construction provides, IMO, more just minimum safety requirements. If you wire a house following the NEC exactly, there is not a lot of real impromentIIRC, BOCA etc, i.e. the general buidling codes do provide minimums only. Mechanical codes typical provide only minimum requirements as well.
but when one is unaware of what the minimum requirements contain, seems like starting out in hole that will get deeper.
That's why on my website under "Construction Consultant", I encourage people to get in touch with me before they sign any agreement to build. When the contractor says "he is building to code" should be the first red flag!! It's been very disappointing to new home owners at the closing inspection when I point out items that aren't well done or will cause future problems. The last one I did just before Xmas had visible framing not to code, 7 incorrect HRV/duct items within 8 feet of the "bottom of line" HRV, heat pump returns were incomplete, no access to septic tank and lift pump, and on and on
See http://www.ahi-ns.ca/construction.htm
Here's the last line of that section:
"Call today for a consultation and find out where your new home should be improved at the planning stage, not after you' re living in it!"
Constantin said "It troubles me that all the loops have the same pipe diameter regardless of appliance need"
All the supply lines are not the same size. Look at Picture 010. The line labeled Bath 3 Tub Cold is 1/2". The other visible lines are 3/8".
I used the Pex/Vanguard manifold system in my own house. We ran 1/2" to all of the full flow fixtures. Washer, tubs, sillcocks, etc.
Thanks for the correction, I did not look that closely to see whether all pipe diameters were the same. Plus, I guess it depends on what you consider full-flow. It's good to know that this manifold system allows you to run different pipe sizes, yet I imagine that a 1" or a 3/4" pipe feeding a "local" manifold in each bathroom would have a net lower flow resistance than 4 seperate loops for the shower, bath, toilet, and sink. True, the thinner strands of PEX are easier to deal with and to weave through walls than 1" or 3/4" loops, so I could see why someone would prefer to run several small loops vs. running one "big" set of supply pipes to each bathroom (or better yet, one big set that all the users sip from). However, the thinner loops make it impossible to engineer a gravity-recirculation system and make it far more difficult to do a forced recirc system as well. In a non-ameoba house, one recirc pump can do all outlets with ease if the potable water system is designed right.My perspective is molded by living in an area with very low incoming water pressure (30psi under flow), with a house that is relatively tall. As such, I have to take pressure loss in my potable water system far more seriously than most homeowners have to. Otherwise, there is no pressure left at the top of the house when someone wants to fill the bath or take a shower.
Edited 12/28/2005 7:47 pm ET by Constantin
I have flex duct in my attic. 15 yrs. old, and the paper-thin plastic holding the insulation around it is falling apart. I think that stuff is junk too! So how do I go about replacing it with some rigid duct work?
So how do I go about replacing it with some rigid duct work?
You should be able to cut into the old, then add hard pipe. They use big zip ties & special tape to make the conection here. Will see if I can get a photo today of some of their work.
Don't think it would be that hard to do.
thanks! this has been bugging me for years!
Hope you can see the connection, also tape & zip ties.
Should make for a fun weekend project!
That is "easy".
Just get some round pipe and elbows (a lot of them) that are the same diameter as the flex duct.
Remove the flex and replace with metal.
You will need to insulate the metal duct. Some use duct wrap, others use the covering from the flex ductwork.
You might need some specialty fittings for the takeoffs on the trunkline. Big Box stores have some of what is needed, but not all of it.
Have fun :)
You could always move to NYC: CI drains and vent, lead bend for the stool, copper and brass H20, black iron gas, and plumbers form the lead shower pans on site as well. ;>)
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.
- Fyodor Dostoyevski
Now thats My Kind of Town! I think you could train a Monkey to do most of the New School stuff. The problem I see is now we have a bunch of people in the trades doing work that a 5th grader could do & it shows in the finished product.
The reason that we have a bunch of products that are designed for 5th graders to install is that an awful lot of people still don't want to pay for quality...
Although I know nothing about them, manifold type systems just seem to make sense to me mechanically somehow.
Chris
My brother had to get his supplier to do him a favor to deliver CI to my house in Northern NJ. Even the plumbing supply houses around here don't carry or order it.
Several people ask why I want to use CI. "PVC is so easy!" The waste line runs over the home office and down a wall to the basement, that's why. Meanwhile, we have to stop talking when someone flushes in their "modern" house.
Besides, snapping CI is easy....that's not a mistake, it's rustic
Since the conversation is begun....
I'm researching an article for FHB which will be titled something like: PEX v. Copper. I'd love to hear both pro and con from people who have used PEX. What's good? What's bad? Are there any local code issues?
If you don't want to speak out in public, just click on the reply by email button.
Thanks,
Andy
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Edited 12/29/2005 9:17 am ET by Andy_Engel
Well, I'm just a homeowner, but I took some interest in PEX vs. Cu.
Pros for PEX
Relatively inexpensive material
Consistent quality when buying from name brand manufacturer
Simple to canoodle through a house's framing in smaller sizes
Immune to corrosive water conditions
Allegedly burst-proof under freezing conditions (though not the fittings!)
Lower emissivity/conductivity, i.e. less prone to heat gain or loss
Quick to install when the right tools are on hand
Add-on circuits are a snap, as are repairs.
Innovative solutions
Red/blue pipe color to make hook-up mistakes difficult
AquaSafe fire sprinkler system
etc.
Anti-PEX
Requires a plumber who knows what he is doing (i.e. not taking shortcuts)
Cannot handle super-high temps, particularly under pressure
Can be a bear to unwind/canoodle in the larger sizes.
Some tools are proprietary (and expensive)
Pro Copper
Can handle very high pressures and temperatures
Experienced Pro will always create neat, plumb, easy-to-follow installations
Copper can support its own weight, i.e. does not require a lot of support to remain straight, particularly as it heats up.
Lower coefficient of expansion
Anti-Copper
Usually requires a flame for the solder (fire hazard) and a high skill level to make it look good.
Material cost is high
Installation can take longer (depends on the system, Pro-Press overcomes some of these issues, for example)
Some manufacturers/supply houses create a lot of extra time and trouble for contractors by distributing substandard fittings and pipe.
Greater issue w/thieves preying on jobsites for copper than PEX
That's a good list.I'm an interested homeowner who has also done some research.Just off the top of my head, I would add in the anti-PEX category the fact that PEX will degrade when exposed to ultraviolet light for long periods of time. This means that you shouldn't run it past a basement window where it might get exposure to direct sunlight. And you have to be careful that you buy from a reputable dealer who hasn't stored a roll of it outside in the sun for a season or two.
10 or so years ago I was putting a large addition onto a house and I waited too late in the year to start. It rains for long stretches of the calender here, so I try my best to not open up a building I can't have back in the dry by mid October.
We get the foundation poured and deck on and get some early bad weather, and have to tent the building off with visqueen and wait it out. We often have a dry spell in late January - February, but I'm hoping to get back before that.
Anyways, I get it buttoned up and things seems fine. A couple weeks later, the customer calls saying they are getting water on the kitchen floor, which is adjacent to part of this new deck we've (knuckleheadedly) sheathed. So I check it out and for the life of me can't find a problem with our tent.
So I get looking and open up the backside of the wall behind the kitchen sink and find a tiny pinhole in a copper supply line. I'm relieved it's not something we caused and it's a small deal to cut out and replace the bad pipe...but what the heck? Why was it leaking in the first place?
So I call the customer at work with the report and she says she's not surprised, that they've had similar leaks spring up for years and have had sections of copper taken out more than once and so have the neighbors.
WTF?
Across the street, maybe 500 feet from their house is a small electrical power transfer station and apparently it's common knowledge in that area that some type of electrical discharge in the ground creates so type of reaction with in ground water lines. I'd never heard of that before, but it sure made me ask plumbers about copper water lines, as well as set all types of nasty images through my mind about natural gas lines and power stations.
Cool, glad to hear you're working on a new PEX article. I really enjoyed that Feb 03 article by Dave Lovesky, but I'm sure its probably a bit dated by now.
For instance, the last time I priced PEX vs copper, the PEX was cheaper. I think in that 03 article, PEX was as much as copper. But it is still an excellent article and one I direct people to when they ask me about PEX. Hard to find a comparable article that gives such a good overview in just 4 pages.
Looking to replumb my current project house. That will be the first time I've done a whole house with it (PW, not radiant floors). Looking forward to using blue & red for color-coded water lines (doesn't take much to amuse me).
jt8
"Talent is God given. Be humble. Fame is man-given. Be grateful. Conceit is self-given. Be careful." -- John R. Wooden
Edited 12/29/2005 2:34 pm by JohnT8
Edited 12/29/2005 2:35 pm by JohnT8
A common problem I see with PEX is where they run it through a sheet metal panned return with no protection against the sharp edges.The plastic inserts trhey requires for metal studs are equally applicablre in that situation, IMO
View Image
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Andy,I believe I posted this story a couple years ago:I was working on a customers house in a semi-rural area of Vancouver Island. It was on an acreage and the house was built on stilts above a meadow that annually flooded from the nearby Nanaimo River. The house was probably 30 or 40 years old, and quite eccentric, having been added on to from time to time. A couple of odd intersecting roof lines. I arrived to work one morning to hear the tale of the wife waking up in the middle of the night, rolling out of bed to tend a child and standing up in a couple inches of water.Well, it turns out that rats, which were endemic, of course, got in under one of those overlapping roofs, found their way to the high false ceiling in the master bedroom closet, and chewed through the plastic waterline they found there. I've been leery about it ever since.2nd StoryMy sister had a failure under her kitchen sink. The pex split just after the stop leading to the dishwasher. No huge damage as it happened around ten at night and luckily people were still up. Hardwood floors through out that area. Shiver to think that it might have been a weekend away or even middle of the night.BTW sisters house was about 4 years old and built by a "quality" builder in Vancouver.Maybe it was the plumber. I got called in to fix an occassional leak from upstairs bath in the same place. Original plumber had not hooked up overflow pipe to bathtub!! It was there, all glued up and a little out of line with the hole. I got it attached through the back, (a closet) with a lot of swearing. It would have taken him maybe five extra minutes in new construction, i.e. no drywall.Alan
Thanks for all the replies. That's some good info, and shows a balance.
Also, if any of you know plumbers with strong views one way or the other, and who would consent to be interviewed, please drop me an email. I won't directly quote anyone who asks not to be quoted, but it can still be good background info.
Andy
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Good comment on animal damage with PEX in that old house...
The annimal damage issue is true for electrical as well. I had to fix a customers 70's ranch house once where the family cat had eaten through the romex in the attic in several places. (Why fluffy didn't fry himself is beyond me...also why he didn't learn after being lit up on 120 a time or 2...)
Chris
Hey, I have a question.
Several times in this thread people have seemingly used the term "PVC" when talking about waste lines. I've always thought you had to use ABS for waste lines inside a house. In fact, I don't remember ever seeing pvc used except for p traps and to connect the drain to the septic system outside the house.
So, am I misreading what people are posting? Did I miss some change in the accepted use of pvc as waste lines? Are people here maybe using "pvc" and "abs" interchangibly? ARE they interchangable and I just didn't know it?
Looking for a little help here. Thanks.
Actually if you are talking about the threaded and compression fit p-traps that go under sinks I don't think that they are PVC. I believe it is styrene, but not sure. Saw the label on a box of parts, but forgot what it said, but it wasn't PVC.As to your question it depends on what code is used and local admendments. I am looking at the 2000 IRC it has a long list including the ASTM specs for each item and part. It includes CI, hub and hubless, ABS, PVC (several variaties including cellular core, and solvent weld and hub/gasket), copper, brass, stainless steel and maybe a couple of others. It also includes the solvents, fittings and adapters.
Jim, in my experience, it's regional. In NJ and CT, most houses have schedule 40 PVC dwv lines. ABS is legal in both states, just not common. Cross the river from NJ into PA, and 10 years ago at least, it was all ABS. I don't think it matters, as long as gravity continues to affect human effluvia in the same manner.Andy
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Holy smokes, man. That's a new one to me.
Any Pacific Northwet builders reading this? Anyone out here seen PVC waste lines inside a (legal) house?
Jimmy , I haven't seen ABS in my area in 25 years . All of the lumber yards and big boxes and plumbing supply houses sell PVC. It is almost imposiple to get a lead roof jack to cover the white pipe sticking through the roof also
I'm embarassed to have to ask you this, Don, but where are you?
Right in the middle of Illinois about 20 miles south of interstate 80 . East of a town called Streator
Central Virginia is also mostly PVC DWV. ABS is carried at the big box stores, but does not sell as well. For PVC DWV to pass inspection, the visable stain of purple primer needs to be seen. Frank DuValYou can never make something foolproof because fools are so ingenious.
I'm seeing quite a bit of it down here....
Puget Sound Plumber here.
PVC was a big push mid to late 90's, we started getting it for about the same cost as ABS.
So we started using it more & more , then the inspectors hit us with "NO one step glue aloud"
So it wasn't cost effective for us to do the primer & glue & went back to ABS.
Mainly I use CI though I'm more in the heavy commercial/industrial end of it now.
& yes it's fully legal
The current project house is a circa 1971 house. The old, black ABS septic heads out the back, while the new city, PVC sewer connection (attached pic) goes out the front.
[edit] and as Don pointed out, you really have to search to find ABS around here. PVC is the common choice.
jt8
"All men should strive to learn before they die What they are running from, and to, and why." -- James Thurber
Edited 1/2/2006 2:26 am by JohnT8
Let me guess, you hung that insulation there on purpose, to deaden the sound of the "funtioning plumbing", right ?;o)
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
Hey Andy
I do a lot of highrise residential/hotel type of buildings in the 15 to 45 story area.
After some failed attempts with cheaper products (cpvc) we use both copper & pex.
We use copper for the mains & we use pex for the branches usually 1" & smaller.
The reason for the copper - our mains are usually in 6" ( I would like to see the tool to expand a 6" pex ring) & to meet fire rating through the floor.
As far as the private residence, pex with copper stub outs & connectors at the water heaters. I think it's a great product.
The biggest thing people need to remember when plumbing a house in pex, is you lose that big ground running through your house. The electrician has to run extra grounds when the copper is not there anymore.
"The biggest thing people need to remember when plumbing a house in pex, is you lose that big ground running through your house. The electrician has to run extra grounds when the copper is not there anymore."No.The copper pipe, inside the house, should not be used as a ground.I know that it was common practice, years ago, when EGC outlets where first being used to run a wire to the nearest cold water pipe.But that has not been legal for a while. One of the reasons is to protect the plumbers. You might have some ground current in that pipe and if you disrupt the pipe then YOU become the ground conductor.
Bill ,
Were still building under the 97 UBC here,(anything permited in 06 will be on the IRC) if the cold water bond is not with in 5' of the entry point of the water service , we don't pass inspection.
Interesting the differences in codes! Just came from aother thread where Bill corrected me on regular house circuit loading in the US.
In Canada's NEC (only one!!!), the ground connection from the panel to the copper water supply pipe must be made before the shut-off, water meter or any filtering equipment. So it's mostly done within 1-1.5 feet of the entrance point.
You are talking about a completely different situation.I was clear about using the water pipe as an EGC, equipment grounding conductor.There are 2 other rules.1. If you have an under ground metallic water pipe at is at least 10 ft (distance from memory, might not be exact) long underground then it must be used as part of the grounding electrode system. However, it can't be used alone. My guess is becauase of the possiibility that the line might get replaced by plastic in the future. Typically that is backed up with a ground rod, but for new construction a Ufer (bonded to footing rebar) is required where applicable.2. If you have metallic water pipes inside then they must be bonded to the grounds. Likewise anything else metallic that might be come a electrified accidently needs to be bonded. The purpose is not so that the pipe can be used as a ground, but rather if it is accidently electrified that there is path for the fault currents. That could happen from a fault in a washer, GD, water heater, etc, and often NM runs close to an cross coper pipes where you might have some wear.
Bill,
Thank for clarification on "grounded" water pipes.
Delaware, if the house has metallic piping:
From SEP neutral/ground bar we must run bare copper to the cold water piping inlet as close to the wall as possible, jumper across the meter and any pressure reducers, also jumper cold to hot at the HW heater outside of di-electrics.
There is a second bare copper from SEP to ground rod(s) or Ufer.
Humorous incident - new construction, home had ABS supply from street, 1' run of copper, then shut-off, meter with copper house piping. We had run our #4 bare copper to the copper piping outside of the meter, and had installed the required jumper past the meter - inspector (new & nervous) "failed" the job since the wire was not connected to the ABS. "That's not as close to the wall as possible". Everything else was fine. We dutifully moved the ground clamp and wire while he was there, therby attempting to ground the house piping to ABS - passed.
Saw the same inspector several weeks later (calmed down a little by now). He remembered the "ground" to the ABS - had figured out his mistake - Why dincha tell me it was ABS ? We then told him moving it was a quick way to pass right then. We finally fessed up that we moved it back to the copper right after he left. Everybody had a good laugh.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Wow
Here in Wa state if we put in a die electric union the inspector will make us put a jumper to bridge the union.
Edit OK had a brain freeze on the grounding I didn't mean for the plumbing to be used as a ground for remote circuts but for a main ground at the inlet.
I really need to drink my coffee before I post.
Edited 12/30/2005 9:43 pm ET by plumbbill
"Here in Wa state if we put in a die electric union the inspector will make us put a jumper to bridge the union."Exactly, you need to maintain the bonding of the metallic pipe.
Andy, one thing that I've noticed is that there seems to be a lot of confusion whether PEX is legal to use in certain areas of the country.
If you search through past threads, you'll see where someone thinks PEX is illegal for PW in Florida...and then a couple other folks come back and says, "no it isn't". Another person thought it was illegal to use in MA...and someone else told them it wasn't. Another person thought it was illegal to use in CT...and then someone else said it wasn't.
I've even had a guy working at a plumbing store tell me PEX is illegal in IL (pw)... but I know people are using it, so I don't know where he is getting his information.
Seems like there is a LOT of misinformation about PEX. A little clearing of the mists would be nice. And I don't mean for anyone to go and search down every municipal code to see what the restrictions are, I'm thinking more along the lines of: is it illegal to use in any part of the US on a state level?jt8
"The test is to recognize the mistake, admit it and correct it. To have tried to do something and failed is vastly better than to have tried to do nothing and succeeded."-- Dr. Dale Turner
That's a perennial problem. PEX is accepted by the UPC, but not all of the UPC is accepted everywhere. And of course, there is a lot of ignorance in the trades, and in the supply houses, and even in some ahj's offices.Andy
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Misinformation abounds. And I'm not even sure half the people know the difference between PEX and that old butl (or whatever) crap that had all the problems in the 80's & 90's.
jt8
"The test is to recognize the mistake, admit it and correct it. To have tried to do something and failed is vastly better than to have tried to do nothing and succeeded."-- Dr. Dale Turner
I can hear my grandfather turning in his grave. He was a plumber from about 1915 through 1950 and when I told him about using PVC and ABS on waste lines, and the no hub on cast iron, he looked at me like I had rocks in my head. He barked at me for even telling him about it let alone using it.
He was old old school.
Old school or new Ci is still better than plastic.
You know, I watched an episode of TOH recently and the plumbing subcontractor (not Richard) mentioned the use of cast-iron drain in a segment from the second floor into the basement. When questioned about using it instead of PVC, the plumber said there was noise consideration and that cast-iron was a lot more quiet when water passes through this.
Now, I can see the benefit, but today no one in the 'business' that I've run across cares to even address this aspect, and benefit, with the client. I can hear every drop of water (and turd) passing through the first floor walls as it comes from the second floor on its way to the basement. Very unappealing. Are there other methods for inplementing sound-proofing of the waste plumbing between floors?
BTW, the off-topic discussion on replacing the flex-duct (HVAC) is also of interest. I can see it being used in truss-style joise applications, and even in I-joist applications where its all being recessed, but I find the local yahoos around me use it because its quick and easy, even if its hanging 2-feet below all the joists.
I had the good fortune of reading a number of building-related books before I started renovating our home. One of the books I picked up was "Plumbing a House" by Peter Hemp (By Pros for Pros series). Any client that shows an interest should have a copy put into their Christmas stocking because Mr. Hemp does a great job of explaining all the principles and the pros and cons of the various materials, etc. in ways that a professional may not be able to due to time constraints, etc. As a result, we have CI vertical stacks and PVC horizontal runs. It may not be as quiet as it could be were verything CI, but I like combining the quietness of CI with the durability/friction coefficient of PVC. One reason the CI will be quieter is due to its greater mass. Surround the PVC with lots of foam and it'll quiet down too... your best bet is Icynene in the stud bays with some geotextile on the far side to give it some backing.
You know, I kind of like PVC drains. The sound of functioning plumbing isn't all bad.Andy
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
I think that would depend on just whose plumbing was functioning.=0)
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
You know, I kind of like PVC drains. The sound of functioning plumbing isn't all bad.
Let me guess... you probably had one of those ball bearing clocks back in the 80's ? :)
My engineer was talking about one of his rental units. Tenants called and said they'd noticed a 'smell' for the past couple weeks and it didn't seem to be going away. turned out that the main PVC drain had busted and all of the 'stuff' going down the drain for 2 weeks or so had been going into the crawlspace.
jt8
"All men should strive to learn before they die What they are running from, and to, and why." -- James Thurber
Let me guess... you probably had one of those ball bearing clocks back in the 80's ? :)
Yeah? So? What's your point? <G>Andy
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
I've got that book as well. I liked it, but it really needs to be updated. His PEX information is nearly non-existant.jt8
"All men should strive to learn before they die What they are running from, and to, and why." -- James Thurber
If you use pvc for main waste, a good sound insulater is to spray it with body under coat from an auto shop like Pep Boys or NAPA. It's like a rubber emulsion and works great. Then stuff regular fiberglass ins around it.
I learned a trick from a local computer builder. He uses squares of Ice Shield, the stuff used on roofs, to deaden the sheet metal on PC cases. It makes a real difference. I suppose the same stuff could be used on pipes. You might want to be careful and do a little more research. Spray undercoat and, to a lesser extent ice shield, have VOCs that might attack plastic plumbing. Being quiet might not seem so much a selling point if it starts leaking. Also I'm not sure of the wisdom of installing glorified pitch with a risk of spreading rapidly in the event of a fire. I do know that tar based mystics are, in some areas and situations, not allowed in many commercial buildings because of the fire hazard. There was a famous Mimi Beach fire that spread more rapidly, in part, because cellulose acoustic tiles had been glued to the ceiling with blobs of a tar based mastic a few weeks earlier.Before getting too deep installing any such material it might be best to find out how it would effect the plumbing and any potential fire hazard. Most materials have listings for flame spread and how much smoke it contributes.
I have seen some high-end builders liberally apply zigzag beads of plain old silicone caulking to copper and PVC piping to dampen the noise. It works.
And his father probably griped at him when he said he was moving the toilet from the outhouse to in the house.<g>PEX is fine for domestic water. I still prefer no unions in closed bays and proper support for droop. PEX and full throw ball valves...life is good.
I haven't used PEX, but it sounds like good stuff... maybe I'll use it after it's been around longer.
As to the flex duct: A modular here was repo'd and sat vacant and not winterized. Froze up. Pipes burst. Water ran for days. The flex duct in the crawl space filled with water, sagged to the dirt and froze. Spring arrived and the crawl space was a sea of mud with the now rotting , moldy and stinking flex duct mixed into mud and fallen insulation. My buddy was "lucky" enough to get the repair job. He had many comments to make about that flex duct! The new owner (it was sold as is) couldn't understand why it took so long to fix everything.
I wonder if PEX would not have burst when it froze. For some situations, that could be a big plus.
Life and suffering are inseparable.