Calling all Framers. Lets Talk Shop.
CanadianFramer
| Posted in General Discussion on
Hey all you hard core framing carpenters out there. I’m interested in sharing ideas, techniques, methods, and bull s**t with my fellow trades men/women.
Replies
If you post this over in General Discussion or Construction Tech you'll get a lot more response. You posted in Photo Gallery.
You're new so welcome, you can also do a search, although I think the search function is lacking but.............try typing something framing related into the search engine and see what pops up.
There have been a lot of discussions regarding framing practices on this site.
Another thing you can do is just read down the list on Gen Dis, or Const Tech, and find a thread that has something to do with framing. If you don't see any in the first 50 posts hit the "next 50" at the bottom of the page and read on, shouldn't have to go far to find some interesting topics.
Here is one link, a thread that's going on right now here in Photo Gallery. 102248.1 , just click on the number.
Doug
Edited 3/23/2008 9:44 pm ET by DougU
I realized after I had posted. that I should have put it in construction tech. I'm new to this site as well as blogging, what can I say.LOL. I was involved in some discussion in Photo Gallery that I was interested in expanding on.
Do you know of a way to move it to const tech or remove it from photo gallery?
Thanx.
ask SYSOP to move it....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Yea, what Imerc says.
Just post to sysop and they should move it.
Doug
where do I find sysop?
can you find this thread a good home???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Do what Imerc just did!
Doug
I hit reply and I don't get SYSOP as a choice to post to.
I've been here a couple of years and I don't know how to do that.
Oh well. Post and learn.
Rich
hit the down arrow on the right of the to name or hit others and enter yur choice...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
IMERC
I just get a listing ov the last 25 people to sign on.
And SYOPS isn't one of the choices.
Probably in Baghdad doing Psy OPs.
Rich
Rich
Dont do the drop down, hit "other" and then type in Sysop.
Doug
don't do the drop down...
click on other and enter what / who ya want and hit OK....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
You Guys sound more like computer Techies' than you do framers. LOL. must have some time on your hands right now. As far as getting through the mud goes, that's wat labourers are for.
You Revelstoke framers must just be wating for that ski hill development to get rolling. A few years of work there I understand. Might see you up there "ripperathome".
Gotta run for a few min, talk to you guys soon.
Seen some of you guys hanging on Jim-Allans' thread. I'll be checking in with him often. At least until we all run out pictures. I still have some.
Where did you here the rumour about the poly in the footings, "ripperathome"? And what do you know about it? I can elaborate on that trick if you like. BIG BIG BIG time saver.
Just wanted to say thanx to everyone for their effort in getting this thread in the right place.
Prime example of what can happen when people pull together.
Now lets get together and spin this thread into what ever we can make of it , along the lines of a framers life.
Well, start spinning....Actually, there are lots and lots of framing threads and I'm guessing you'll get yourself in a heap of trouble soon enough. Be careful in here. There are lots of regional differences that you will learn about and don't be too quick to judge them. Save yourself the grief.What did you cut your teeth on? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I liked the part about a "Framer's life".... best....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I didn't join the discussion(s) to stir up any trouble by any means. And I'm certainly not here to step on toes. I subscribed to FHB online because I'm a sucker for knowledge. Perhaps I chose an inappropriate screen name, already knowing that this site is largely American, I just wanted to identify myself as your counterpart to the north. I know there are regional differences, they exist all over the world. But construction methods are construction methods. All of us involved in it have something to share, as well as something to learn. Consider the enormous project going on in U.A.E, Dubai. There are probably 30 or more countries involved in that, to some degree or another, all sharing their construction methods to get the job done. What regional differences are you referring to?
I browsed a little through the different threads posted on this site, and I jumped on on yours because it seemed that we shared a common interest in on site prefabrication, and I do apologize if maybe I came on a little strong for a newbie on your thread. Just wanted to kick the ball back and forth a little.
I posted "Calling all Framers" to get the big balls bouncing. To kick around some ideas that "framing" contractors, small and big could contribute. Maybe those of us that have been around the block, once or twice, can lend a hand to the next generation, or even the home handyman who may need some help on finishing out his basement, that he has been promising his wife to do for years, and is unsure how to approach the framing. Isn't that what "Taunton" is all about.
I don't claim ownership to this thread by any means, even though I initiated it. It can go in any direction as those who wish to partake want to direct the conversation. My only wish is that the dialog brought forth is strictly framing oriented. And particularly hard core, high ball framing. As that is where my interests lie.
I want to know how fast someone slammed up a house foundation and frame, or multi development, and how they did it, what methods they used and so on. Without sacrificing quality of workmanship and safety. If there are any takers please bring it. I am sure you will not be without conversation.
Touching back on regional differences for a moment. It is quite interesting to see when I go into Washington State and even down to northern Oregon how the construction methods are really quite similar to the methods employed in south west Canada. The further south you travel from there you can notice how methods start to morph into something different. I assume more born of geographically climatic conditions and hereditary methods of construction, past on from one generation to another from the original settlers of a region, and developed and engineered along the way into what they are today. Regional differences do not stop short at political boundaries. They blend and mesh together.
If it was conceived that that I was judging in some way that was not my frame of mind. I was just throwing something out there for discussion, and it seemed to spark some interest.
I cut my teeth slopping around in S**t hole excavations with mud up to your knees, building shiplap formed foundations, and then framing the 1400 sq ft cookie cutter house on it using the same #### lumber we striped off the foundation. Then got into large custom homes. Cut some teeth 40 or so floors off the ground for a time, some commercial, lots of multi residential and everything in between.
How about you?
Edited 3/26/2008 3:13 am ET by CanadianFramer
I'm afraid you misunderstood my post to you. I wasn't accusing you of stirring up trouble...I'm only forewarning you that it will happen because...that's what happens in here. Don't be apologetic for being Canadian. My Mom immigrated from Canada and I'm half canuck as a result...and there's nothing to be ashamed of. There are many friends from the North sharing here. We welcome your contributions and look forward to all of your input...controversial or not. As you hang around enough, you'll find that you cant "own" a thread, so don't feel any pressure about this one. I'm glad you started it and many in here will share in this and many other ones with you. I don't feel at all like you did anything wrong with me so please don't feel like you harmed anyone, especially me. I look forward to many exhanges with you, so please, carry on. I like your style and hope we can learn something from one another. If someone learns something from any exchanges we have...more power to them! Carry on...lets have fun!
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Ive got a question for you guys . Whom of you uses california corners as a regular practice and why ?
Whats a California corner? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This is a "California" corner.
View Image
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
we do
easy to frame and easy to insulate
California corners all the way. When I prefab I use Saskatchewan corners, unless the builder insists on the wall sheathing lapping on the corners.
I'm not too sure I like the way I see the sheathing on that pic. On my houses I want the sheathing continuous all the way to the corner. In one county near here they have sheathing inspections - and it is required. Actually it is required anywhere in NC but in most areas inspectors don't verify Our code says the first first 4'. Not the first 4' but don't worry the first 3.5 "... I have to periodically remind them of this...
I'm not entirely crazy about it either. Code here doesn't specify that we run the sheathing through. The only time I do this is when I prefab the walls, and here is why. When ever I hire a green wanna be framer I start them out in prefab to hopefully teach them the concept of how a wall is built. I started out with California style, but got tired of standing walls and some were and some and some weren't, even though it was clearly indicated on the plate layout. My prefab foreman, bless his heart, got tired of me giving him sh!t all the time for this, to the point where I thought he was going to pack it in on me. He has to have six eyes in his head all looking in different directions. Some of the guys I've sent him don't wake up until payday, and then have to start all over again on monday. ( we obviously have a shortage of skilled labor around here ) That's another story. So I switched to Saskatchewan corner. Simple, all sheathing ends flush.
It is quite obvious that you are a very conscientious builder and I truly respect that in this industry.
welcome aboard. I've been doing the reno and trim jobs bit past couple years, which has been good, honing some of my less developed finish carp skills.
I've got a small foundation and frame job starting up shortly on a 30' x 32' garage. have to say I'm really pumped to stand some walls and trusses for a change, even if it's not a big job.
Nothing beats being the first guy on site and having every who follows complimenting on the framing. Goes to show how bad it is out there, because to me, that's just the way it should be.
PS 1st trip through Salmon Arm, was 3 am in morning bout 13 years ago. Got nailed for speeding on way to Albearta to see my fiance! View Image View Image
I love seeing a nice clean framing job. Framing members flush and straight, consistent nailing patterns, sheathing cut straight and accurately, etc. It really says a lot about a persons pride of workmanship. Makes a person feel proud of a job well done when the inspector makes a note on the report about the quality of workmanship observed. I always tell my guys quality first then speed. After all it's my reputation they're working under. If the builder is not satisfied he comes to me not them.
Good luck on the garage. TTYL.
I love seeing a nice clean framing job. Framing members flush and straight, consistent nailing patterns, sheathing cut straight and accurately, etc. It really says a lot about a persons pride of workmanship.
*** ME TOO!!! ***
What you will find with the people here is that they are genuinely interested in their work and take pride in it... You'll fit in great here...
Kootos'(did I spell that right?) to you.
Here are the pics I took today,of the foundation we just finished. Is this similar to what you would do if building on a hill side?
Would appreciate your comments or questions.
I will try to take some pics of our framing practices as you asked earlier. Have never really been big on picture taking at the job sight, but since I joined in here that digital cam we bought a year ago is going get some use. A picture really does say a thousand words. I'll bet Jim has a really nice one. O-Kay, don't hammer me for that Jim.
I know "ripperathome" that the 10' column isn't formed of poly. I'll set up the link to the company soon. My STUPID-STUPID slow dial up barely alloys me to maintain a conversation here. Plus my puter illiteracy doesn't help, nor my speedy typing skills.
Why the waterproofing on the inside of the foundation? That I have never seen before.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Yeah me neither - unless the kid with the tar was confused. I'd be impressed if you used poly instead of the sono tube - that would be a feat. I have a huge reno under way right now - major component is two carports - I'll try the poly footer and let you guys know how it all goes - 30-45 days or so.It's funny which hoops you have to hop through on which day - is it the inspector or the home warranty... I usually don't have an issue with code but the warranty guys are driving me nuts with building wrap shuffle!
The tar is all about moisture barrier. Just started a year ago in Salmon Arm. In Armstrong and Vernon not. Why S.A. I'm not sure why only them. Will ask the inspector next time I see him.
http://www.fab-form.com Not quite poly. Poly fabric type weave. Haven't had a chance to check it all out in detail, pricing/ cost effectiveness. If you look let me know what you think.
seems like you don't need to buy fast forms, you could use lumber wrap. which I'm sure is where the idea came from. I seem to recall seeing that done before on a site years ago. View Image View Image
That looks like a fairly complicated foundation. Most of what I build is crawlspace and mostly brick/block, or monolithic slab. Generally our lots are fairly flat, which don't lend themselves to basements and also remember the rather minimal 12" deep requirement. Sometimes too flat. I'm not going to comment much. I'll leave it up to some guys who do more vertical concrete work. Dovetail is one, and there are a coupla others including Cloud hidden and VATom who both do alternative concrete construction - if nothing else, if they stop by, they will say some things most regular guys would never thing of in a million years...
Regarding the damp proofing on the interior of the foundation, I noticed that too. A guy named Gene Ledger wrote a book maybe 20 years ago that said that the capillary action in concrete can carry moisture up to 6 miles high!!! That might be up to debate, but the point is that concrete is inherently damp, so the interior damp proofing might make some sense... BTW - Gene stops by BT sometimes...
IN the pics I didn't see a drainage plane (or whatever you want to call it) applied to the outside of the foundation. Maybe I missed it. Was something like that applied? Take a look at the attached pic to see what I'm talking about. The fiberglass shown still needs to be cut off at grade...
Concerning your computer skills - you present your self quite well... Don't worry about it. If you have questions - ask. There are a lot of people like you here - building professionals with some computer skills. There are also some computer professionals with some building skills. There is always someone who can answer your Q. Regarding dialup - other than me saying you need to get into the new millennium :-), you might want to try turning the resolution down on your camera digital one notch - it will make the picture file sizes fewer megabytes and therefore you will get quicker upload times and it will be easier for other dial-up users. The disadvantage is that the pics will be smaller on the screen and may appear grainy. The thing is that our pictures of framing, or whatever, are not considered 'art' so high quality may not be a requisite. Give it a try anyway.... Although actually I'd say the way you posted the pics are perfect for my cable access to the internet.
matt: I don't know if our canadian framer thinks that this is complicated
foundation, I know it really is not, at least from what I have seen.
Don't have pic. to back up. when I'm fealling better, I will take some.
I fully understand about having to re-train guys on a periodic basis... And I also understand having to pick my battles and not being too anal on the details - I need these guys just like they need a job... Sure I could get someone else but it would then just be the same sheet, different day (or different crew - as it were).
BTW - I missed something - the "Saskatchewan corner". Whaz that?
Yeh, Saskatchewan
Same here. No short sheating the corners, save it for your buddy's bed.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Coming on this place is definately good training for psy-ops!!.
.
"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
.
.
.
If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
they moved you
I'm a framing carp., ther are several on this site .
you are more than welcome to put your 2 cents in
so - what technique you got for getting through the mud? That oughta be a hot tip about now.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
snow shoes and ice crampons...
not mud yet..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Canadian Framer you're from Salmon Arm - I'm from Revelstoke. Do you guys build your truss system on the ground and lift it in with a crane? That's the first rumour. Second one you use poly for your footings instead of lumber for your forms? Spring has sprung over in the Shuswap, we're still 2 weeks away from digging holes. Hope you have a good rainless spring. I know I won't...
what technique you got for getting through the mud? View Image
Edited 3/25/2008 2:57 pm ET by Riversong
Did you hear the one about the framer's young apprentice who was always choking up on his hammer in spite of several admonitions to use the full leverage of the handle?
One day, his old mentor walked over to the apprentice, took the hammer, sawed a couple inches off the wooden handle, and handed it back without saying a word.
When that apprentice showed up the next day with a new hammer, he never choked up on it again.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
See, our crew all used Estwings, would have had to get out the grinder. View Image View Image
Steve didn't have too much trouble navigating the mud. He doesn't even need boots! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Edited 3/25/2008 4:35 pm by Jim_Allen
now that guy looks like a guy we fired about 3 yrs ago
not to bright?
I thought he was brilliant. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Now there is real a carpenter for ya. Always thinking in terms of solutions using wood. Maybe 25 years ago I remember one of my best buds, a true carpenter and framer at that time, was repairing his (rather beat) work truck. He was under the hood fashioning some kind of repair item out of a 2x4. Can't remember what it was, alternator bracket or something... but I do remember getting a good laugh.
Another tip for a few quick treks through the mud is wrapping those thin plastic grocery store bags around your work boots, tying them at the ankles. Disposable foot condoms... Not that I mind getting my shoes muddy, it just the really muddy sox on a chilly day that bothers me....
Edited 3/26/2008 6:03 am ET by Matt
I've always marveled at how each trade uses their scraps and supplies to solve life's little problems. The plumbers bend pipe and do stuff with it. The electricians do quirky things with wire, etc. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
That guy must be an old concrete finisher...Wonder if he ever worked with Brownbagg??.
.
"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
.
.
.
If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
I meant to get from the vehicle to the foundation
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I meant to get from the vehicle to the foundation
View Image
looks like a job I once did
oops I thought that was me in the picture for a minute.
In Canadia when they get mud they just wait 15 minutes for it to freeze back up.<;o).
.
"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
.
.
.
If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
You have found the right place.
Welcome. I'll have a Guiness.
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
C Framer
Looks to me like none of the guys want to talk shop about framing.
Most just want to shot the bull.
Maybe they are all too busy framing to BT.
Or maybe they just like to buy the tools.
Rich
What do you want to talk about?
I'm a disabled framer with plenty of time to talk, no I don't miss the mud, -30 degree wind chill but I do miss not having to get up a 5am to go frame.
Here's a question.. how do you find a framer?? You guys don't advertise in the yellow pages!? :)
Do I drive around to construction sites?
I guess i can ask at the lumber supply places..
now you went and answered your own question
fill out your profile somebody might live nere you
don't the dude that was framing yesterday to trim today without a bit of acculamation.....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
frammer52
I am a remodeling/repair guy. It's rare we get a chance to do any framing. When we do all the studs are a different length across the basement.
I was just poking fun and trying to keep Canadianframers thread alive.
I'm enjoying the Super Insulated House thread.
Rich
I'm not a framer.... but I hire framers. You wanted to talk about framing. Maybe this will spark some useful conversation...
Attached are some pics taken in some houses I'm having framed right now. The topic is framing details to help energy efficiency. Granted, this might be tinker toy stuff for someone like yourself who is Canada... Burrrrr.... But here in the SE USA people are not very energy conscious and by in large, the home buying public is not willing to pay for energy upgrades. Still my goal is to included some energy saving details that have little to no cost - sure I can build a house with 12" thick walls and all that.... but the real challenge, at least in this NC building market is to build smart but not expensive...
Anyway... attached are some different ways to frame Wall Ts, corners and blocking at sheathing joints.
Comments?
BTW - I didn't resize the pics - sorry dialup users.... but anyway, if you right click on a pic icon and select "open in new window" sometimes they display better.
And here is one more....
Thanks for the post Matt. Prime example of how methods can span across many regions.
We do practically identical features in our framing as you showed in your pics. I'm assuming you put poly between your insulated walls and your sheet rock. Here we run the poly continuous when an interior partition wall meets an insulated exterior wall. We have 16" wide rolls of poly that the framer installs to the partition framing before he butts the interior wall to it. The insulator then seals his poly to it creating a continuous vapor barrier. We also put this poly between the top plate and cap plate of our interior walls that meet up with an insulated ceiling.
The code here requires us to run our exterior sheathing horizontally with a 3/8" gap between the rows of sheathing. This serves two purposes, it allows an escape for moisture as well as an expansion gap, allowing the lumber to expand and contract naturally without compromising the structural integrity of the wall sheathing. The expansion part of this may not be necessary in warmer climates where seasonal temperatures don't fluctuate as drastically as in cooler climates. Like here, "40F summer, -80F winter." LOL. Sorry Matt just had to throw that in there. However the moisture part of this would definitely be an asset in climates of high humidity.
It looked like to me that you use treated wood as well as a gasket on the bottom of the walls that rest on a concrete slab. Is this code in your area or just your preference? If there is poly under your slab then you have a moisture barrier. The treated wood and gasket may be an unnecessary expense.
Get back to me with your thoughts if you like.
Have a great day.
>> Prime example of how methods can span across many regions.
We do practically identical features in our framing as you showed in your pics. << That might be pretty much where the similarity ends....
>> I'm assuming you put poly between your insulated walls and your sheet rock. Here we run the poly continuous when an interior partition wall meets an insulated exterior wall. We have 16" wide rolls of poly that the framer installs to the partition framing before he butts the interior wall to it. The insulator then seals his poly to it creating a continuous vapor barrier. We also put this poly between the top plate and cap plate of our interior walls that meet up with an insulated ceiling. << Actually - it's the opposite. 10 years ago we were using poly vapor barriers on framed walls, although it was never code required and not common in ceilings. Then everyone got so paranoid about mold (thanks lawyers and phobics) that the use of poly got less and less. Personally I think mold problems are mostly due to the exterior of the building envelope not being detailed properly. That would include both the primary and secondary rain screen. So, for several years we were using fiberglass insulation with craft faced paper vapor barrier (which is quite minimal in performance) but now it's going one step further to where no vapor barriers are required. I'm in the planning stages of 4 to be Energy Star certified homes, and I was just talking to the insulation contractor yesterday and he said most Energy Star homes get no vapor barrier. Energy Star is a program set up by the US EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) that touches everything from homes, to appliances, to computers to light bulbs. BTW - I'd say 99% of homes here in NC central/eastern NC have fiberglass insulation. I use Tyvek house wrap with adhesive flashing around the windows, doors, etc. I use guys who specialize in the installation of windows and doors.
>> The code here requires us to run our exterior sheathing horizontally with a 3/8" gap between the rows of sheathing. This serves two purposes, it allows an escape for moisture as well as an expansion gap, allowing the lumber to expand and contract naturally without compromising the structural integrity of the wall sheathing. The expansion part of this may not be necessary in warmer climates where seasonal temperatures don't fluctuate as drastically as in cooler climates. Like here, "40F summer, -80F winter." << Here we are code required to block all seams in sheer panels (4' at the house corners and every 25 on long walls) so 95% of sheathing is run vertically. Although we are 150 miles inland we are considered to be in hurricane territory - we get hit maybe once every 5 years. We are in a 100 MPH wind zone area. I've never heard of the sheathing gaps, except for reading it here. I've never seen sheathing seams buckling (again, except here), but I like the idea of it for ventilation. One thing that troubles me is that just about all types sheathing that are commonly used around here has such a low perm rating that it essentially is a vapor barrier. Maybe I should go back to having them block only the required spots - or, also, I was also thinking of starting to use 9' sheathing on the corners - most of what we build has 9' 1st floor ceilings. Actually I don't ask them to block everything - they just do it. Most of what I build is trussed roofs so the sheathing 'H' clips gap the roofs automatically.
>> It looked like to me that you use treated wood as well as a gasket on the bottom of the walls that rest on a concrete slab. Is this code in your area or just your preference? If there is poly under your slab then you have a moisture barrier. The treated wood and gasket may be an unnecessary expense. <<
The treated wood is code required. This may be partially due to the fact that we are in termite country. If you look back at some of my pics I think you might see framing treated with Boracare - we treat the bottom 2' of the wood framed structure. They usually add a blueish-green dye to it. The rule of thumb is that no "white wood" touches concrete - that is always treated. BTW, when I say "white wood" I mean SPF or spruce-pine-fir much of which comes from Canada. The treated wood we use here on the east coast USA is SYP - Southern Yellow Pine - or "long leaf" pine. I think they use that because it absorbs the chemicals so well. If a beam is going to set on a masonry column - like in a crawl space - there is a piece of galvanized metal installed at the interface of the 2 materials to act as a moisture break. Some say that it helps with termites - but I doubt it.
The gasket is my preference - costs maybe $5 a roll or about $25 a house. It's primary function is air sealing and it helps keeps the bugs out. I feel that on slab houses (BTW I hate slab houses) the area right at the baseboard of an exterior 1st floor wall is a prime air leakage spot. How many older houses have I seen that had the carpet discolored around the exterior walls? - air leakage carries dirt with it... A secondary function is that the gasket material acts as a moisture break between the wood and the potentially damp concrete. We do put poly under the slabs but the exterior perimeter is just raw (moist) concrete. I have them install the gasket under interior walls too - again for a moisture break, but mainly because otherwise I end up with some sometimes large gaps between the tops of the walls and the truss bottom chords. Sometimes when it rains and I have a under-construction mono-slab house I can see the concrete showing up as a darker color around the inside of the exterior walls, obviously from moisture - really makes me wonder.... Like I said - I hate slab houses... I'm guessing you Canuks (sp?) probably run foam insulation on the exterior of a monolithic slab (frost protected?) all the way up to the sheathing. That is not code allowed here - again because of termites. The foam provides a ready highway for the little buggers and what's worse, is they can't be detected in that situation.
I'd like to see some pics of some of the building techniques you described....
Matt, how come you pre-insulate your outside corners? We build them in the same configuration, but use advantech rips from the deck for the underlapping piece and a little more room for foam. Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
Pre-insulated corners - because when the siding corners go on the siders drive siding nails through the sheathing at the un-backed portion of the corner. Then the insulator can't get the batt insulation to go in there properly. Not an issue with foam.
RE using the advantech rips - in the attached pic I had them use 1x6 for backing on the 'T's but maybe it wound be better to use rips from the scrap floor sheathing instead... The framers might see it as more labor intensive though...
OTOH. I kinda wonder about the strength of doing a 2 stud corner.... I'll have to think about it...
When you say "I kinda wonder about the strength of doing a 2 stud corner" are you referring to the "California" corner I posted?I don't know why you would need more than that, at least in our wind & seismic zone.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I can barely see that pic you posted but it looks like a 3 stud corner to me. That's what I'm using now.
In your climate you don't want gaps in the exterior sheathing unless you are using a bulk insulation that is also a moisture retarder. (foam and maybe dense pack).A significant part of the year you will have moisture drive from the outside to the inside.And you don't want to have free travel of the moisture until it hits the paper facing of FG bats..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
"In your climate you don't want gaps in the exterior sheathing... A significant part of the year you will have moisture drive from the outside to the inside."
Our code here calls for gapped sheathing, holes drilled under windows and in any other sealed stud space. But that goes along with rainscreen requirements, so theoretically no outside moisture should penetrate the wall. I am a lot more comfortable with this approach than trying to completely seal the wall and hoping you got it completely tight with no capacity to dry if it isn't.
I believe you are on the right track Matt. You still are wasting a lot (thats a relative term) of resources (lumber) but you are headed down the right path. If you'd like, we could analyze every component and help you streamline your framing. You should same lumber and the framers will save labor. The end user will get the same quality installation. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
>> If you'd like, we could analyze every component and help you streamline your framing. << Yes - please review the pics - I always want to hear new ideas.
>>You should same lumber and the framers will save labor. << I'm all about not wasting lumber and it would make sense for the framers to save labor, the only problem is that often trying to get them to do something different than what they are used to is difficult for them. No disrespect intended to anyone here.... It just puts a hick-up in the work streams they already have in place...
>> The end user will get the same quality installation. << or better quality would awesome...
Edited 3/30/2008 12:30 pm ET by Matt
I'm coming from C-framers neck of the woods - the gap in the sheathing is for settling and expansion of the material - not for a moisture vent. The air pressure and dew point inside the vapour barrier must be maintained at a higher level than the outside of the vapour barrier, if it isn't you have serious issues in southwest BC. As a recreational student of building science I can't see the elimination of the vapour barrier in our region. Radical temperature changes are the rule of the day - I can downhill ski and golf with a t-shirt on the same day - that's massive humidity for any building to deal with.On another note - I'd still like to hear how you guys in the Shuswap use poly for your footings.M
I can see this poly in the footings thing is driving you nuts. How about the idea of using poly to form 10' high concrete columns.
I was turned onto the idea of using poly in forming my footings about 5yrs ago by a guy that was working for me at the time. We were setting up some footings in a "slightly" un level excavation. In some areas the bottom of our footing form was 3" or so off the ground. I started scabbing plywood, 2xs', and banking dirt against the footing like a madman as the mud was coming soon. He looked at me like I was an idiot for working so hard and suggested that I go and get a roll of 16" plate poly and a couple of coffees to drink while we waited for the mud. We stapled the poly to the inside of our footing form and had it done in minutes instead of an hour. When you pour use about a 3" slump and don't fill the footing to the top immediately, throw a little ahead of you to hold the rolled under portion of the poly to the ground while you top up about 5' behind. A strip of 16" poly stapled to each side of the form works well for a footing about 3 to 4 inches off the ground if poured carefully. Any thing higher than that I would A) fire the excavator operator and 2) use a wide enough piece of poly to span continuously from one side of the footing to the other. Oh yeah and don't be shy with the staples.
I beg to differ about the gap in the sheathing issue. It is coming down the pike that soon we will have to drill holes in the tops and bottoms of all our exterior walls to provide adequate ventilation for moisture. Maybe not so much coming from the building authorities but from warranty providers. The "leaky condo" syndrome. I'm starting a 48 unit town house project in a month and I will have to do this there.
Regarding using poly for forms for footings, we take it one step further. We use nothing. Here the soil is stiff enough (non-granular) so as to hold up on it's own. See attached pics. Again, do a right click and "open in new window". The one pictured went a little deep because of soft surface soils. We are only actually to go 12" below finished grade....
Some guys here from other geographic areas aren't used to seeing this and think it half-azzed or sloppy but it really just needs to come out level. True enough we waste at least a yard or 2 of concrete by over digging. Thing is, my sub can layout, dig and install an average house footing in maybe 4 hours, so the labor costs are relatively low. The 4 hrs is excluding inspector wait time. I'd put labor for a footing crew of some guys plus a machine or 2 at maybe $300 an hr, so to me it makes perfect sense in our soils. So they probably do 3 to 5 footings over a 2 day period. They use a laser constantly both during the dig and the placing of the concrete.
Edited 3/30/2008 12:28 pm ET by Matt
Would like to see some pics on how the rest of that foundation comes together.
We just finished one last week, I have to swing by there tomorrow, will take some pics to share.
No more fiberglass for me, give me some froth.So you put the fibeglass in before it's sheathed? Your guys must dry in way faster than we do! One thing extra we do with the advantech is put a 1x 2 3/4" block at the bottom and top plates to keep the corner square... think I can call it a NC corner? Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
>> So you put the fibeglass in before it's sheathed? Your guys must dry in way faster than we do! <<
No - after the tar paper goes on the roof but before the siding goes on. We dry-in in a week or a week and a half, but remember I build smaller houses...
Last time I priced foam it was about $4k extra for a 2k sq ft house... I can't even sell most people extra attic insulation for $300... It's cool that you have customers who are willing to spend the $$$ on sensible things. People got the bucks in Chapel Hill...
That was a few years ago... Here are a few pics of that or one of the other houses right there that I built.
I don't take that many pics on site these days....
Is it more economical to build a block foundation vs poured concrete? You're filling the block with concrete as it is. How about time frame? Is the foundation perfectly level, so to speak, or is there some shimming involved for the framer?
I certainly appreciate the look of the brick above grade.
Many of the MI rural basement builders use block because they can do it themselves. There are a lot of MI basement builders that have metal forms that have a brick imprint on them. We paint the exposed brick pattern white or some other color and it looks as elegant as it can for next to nothing. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
>> Is it more economical to build a block foundation vs poured concrete? << Block is less expensive especially when the brick look is required since a brick veneer would need to be applied to a brick ledge in the concrete anyway which would also require two subs. Regarding the brick pattern forms, well... here anyway, that usually isn't consider acceptable appearance wise. It might be in a tract neighborhood though. If no brick is required, fiber parged block is still cheaper than formed concrete. If it is a basement, there are other things involved, so concrete might be more attractive. In another thread, we had a peripheral discussion about the popularity of brick in different geographic areas. I suspect it has a lot to to with how readily available and expensive brick is. Here there are probably 3 major brick factories within 50 miles of here... Brick starts at about $325 per 1 k for installation and the brick itself is $215/per thousand and up depending on what you want. Of course there are other materials involved too. I could make brick from the clay found in my own backyard - if I wanted to :-)
>> You're filling the block with concrete as it is. << No - we don't fill the block unless it is something like over 7' high or have a large amount of unbalanced backfill. More often than not a step down foundation would be built rather than building a very high foundation wall - be it crawl space or basement. We do use ladder wire in the brick/block foundations though.
>> How about time frame? << Brick may be quicker as a poured foundation requires a rebar inspection - depending on which jurisdiction I am building in. Brick layer crews often show up with 14 guys, so it goes quite fast. Basements are fairly rare though until you get up into the more expensive homes - say > $700k. Remember that since we only need to go 12" deep with our footers the economics of it are a lot different than someplace where you have to go say 4' deep with footers to start with.
>> Is the foundation perfectly level, so to speak, or is there some shimming involved for the framer? << No shimming is necessary. Lasers are so cheap these days, all brickie crews have them and I require it. I also carry my own laser. I have a fairly nice (although basic) auto-leveler. Also the layout aspect is vastly more accurate these days since using a surveyor to pin the footers has become popular. My surveyor charges maybe $125 per trip.
>Some guys here from other geographic areas aren't used to seeing this and think it half-azzed or sloppy <
Taht was me 20+ years ago whenI moved to GA from N IL. There's definitely some advantages to hard clay.
Which energy corner do you prefer of the ones you showed? The 1x backer, 2x6 backer or the ones with the horiz 2x spanning to adj studs (hadn't thought of or seen the latter before your pics)?
>> Which energy corner do you prefer of the ones you showed? << I only showed one corner but 3 wall 'T's so I guess you are referring to the T's.... The one with the 1x6 is the most effective. The only thing is it requires the purchase of an additional type of lumber. Snort's solution of rips of left over subfloor resolves that... Another disadvantage to the 1x6 (or floor sheathing rips) is that at least my framers like to sheath the 2nd floor walls before they stand them. The 1x6 is added after the walls are stood. My framers have it all figured where they can frame a house with no more than an 8' step ladder. Putting the 2nd floor wall sheathing on from tall ladders would suck for them... That's why I have them do the ladder style wall 'T' blocking on the 2nd floor.