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Andy–I was looking through last year’s issue on Houses and I saw a review you did of a steel floor framing system (I think is was called “Ready Deck” or something lilke that–I don’t have the mag in front of me right now). In the review you said although the steel system might work for floors,you weren’t convinced that steel framing was a good idea for an entire house. I’m curious why you aren’t convinced? I know thermal bridging is talked about as being a problem with steel buildings, but what else is there you don’t like or aren’t convinced about? The reason I ask is I’m about to start building a new house and have hired a contractor who builds steel and concrete homes. It will be ICF foundation, red steel frame infilled with metal studs and poured concrete floors. After looking at this for a while I’ve come to the conclusion that you can’t build a better house than this. Plus, the quote was more than $30/sq. ft. less than what two stick frame guys quoted me. I’ve already hired the contractor, so I’m not going to change at this point, but I would like to hear from you (and anyone else)as to what you think the pros and cons of this type of building are.
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How do you fasten OSB or ply to sheath the house?
I sense a con coming here.
*Send carpenters, screwguns and money.....
*Grew up in a house with steel studs and aluminium wiring. Ever fun watching Dad cuss when tried to hang pictures - seems he couldn't Miss the studs.
*Yep Tim,That's what I thought.And noo way do screws and screwguns compare to nails and nailguns.Wood is good!
*I'm still a little fuzzy on some of the finer points of this type of construction, but briefly the system works like this: They pour the ICF foundation and then erect a welded red steel frame that forms the shell of the house. They lay the first and second floor joist in, cover them with a skin of sheet metal and then pour concrete with radiant head tube sandwiched between two layers of wire mesh. The frame is infilled with metal studs placed on 4 foot centers. They then screw hat channel perpindicular to the studs on both the inside and outside of the walls on 16" centers. This forms a grid that stiffens the studs, provides anchor points for the sheathing and sheet rock and also creates channels for the blown in icynene foam to expand. This helps solve the problem of thermal bridging. The sheathing and sheet rock are screwed to the hat channel just like you would screw them to wood studs. Although there are some things about this system I don't like, I think the pros outweigh the cons. As a former carpenter I worked mostly with wood, so that's what I'm used to, but I did trim out a few houses that were built this way. Moldings had to be either screwed into the studs or glued and cross-nailed to the sheetrock,which was more work. However, the walls were always flat. Also, changes in the framing or moving mechanicals is a lot more complicated than with wood. I've already told my wife, once we start, there are no changes. (Yeah, right) On the plus side, with steel you can clear span large rooms. The entire basement, including a full basement under the garage, will not need a single support column. The floors and stairs are solid as a rock with no bounce,deflection or squeaks. Walls are flat and steel won't shrink, bend or move the way wet wood does when the heat comes on for the first time. Concrete floors provide a lot of thermal mass for the radiant heating. Also, with concrete floors, there is no prep work required before laying down tile. The blown in expanding foam insulation is a lot tighter than fiberglass. (In fact,this house will be built under a program here called "Vermont Star Homes" which means they must meet certain energy efficiency requirements.)I'm sure there are lots of other pros and cons, but you get the picture. Basically this is commercial construction adapted for a residential building. Most people I talk to about this are skeptical at first, but once they look into the details they seem to agree it is a good way to build a house. The only people who don't usually agree are stick-frame builders who have been around for a while. (Not trying to offend anyone here) The feeling seems to be since it is new technology, it either doesn't work or isn't as good as doing it the way it's been done for the past hundred years. I think if this type of construction is ever going to catch on and become readily acceptable as an industry standard, more builders will have to begin "thinking outside the box" (bad pun intened) and learn a new way of doing things. That may never happen on a large scale, but for our situation this seems to be the way to go.
*> the quote was more than $30/sq. ft. less than what two stick frame guys quoted me.Does that smell like a rat to anyone else ? Around here ICF houses and steel framing are significant upcharges.
*Man, in a house like that you could wind it up in telephone wire, apply a little power and have one helluva electric magnet. Probably strong enough to throw off compasses for miles around......
*Yes Ron. It sounded way off base to me.
*I think US Steel tried to get into the residential housing market in the late sixties and early seventies with a similar system. That division failed because they could not compete with wood framing cost wise.Like Ron and Mad dog, I wouldcheck out the $ and contract more closely.
*Speaking from the perspective of having built via an alternate method, I also wonder about saving $30/ft. I didn't find that there was $30/ft in the shell of a house even available to save. So much of a budget goes into things that ANY house of ANY structure would need--lights, appliances, cabinets, finishes. It seems there'd have to be differences in the bid beyond the cost of framing. Plus, some of the component costs of the steel house are definitely more, such as the foam. Even though it's great stuff (well, not literally "Great Stuff"), it does cost more that FG. Leaves me wondering where the savings are coming from.
*We had a 3200 sf branch bank built, with one red iron beam and the rest heavy guage steel studs. Screwed on the osb and hardiboard planks on the outside, screwed on the gwb on the inside. Yes, it's a business, not a house, but it looks like a house and we're very happy with the results. The metal stud system was slightly cheaper than wood framing - like maybe $1 - $2/sf less. So far there's not a single nail pop, and none of the walls are bowed :)
*For what it is worth, there are airguns made especially for attaching plywood to steel framing and they are every bit as strong as plywood attached to studs or rafters.
*I think I can explain the significant price difference. The cost savings aren't so much due to the different construction methods as they are to the builders I got quotes from. The two stick frame guys I had quote both have reputations as the most expensive builders in our area. The steel and concrete guy is generally less expensive in all phases of construction--plumbing, electric, blasting, excavating. So the savings are really directly related to the type of construction. True, the ICF is a bit more expensive than a normal poured concrete foundation, but the guys framing and wall systems were less. He buys the steel from a local company and because of the amount of business he does with them he gets a good deal. As for framing, in our area a wood 2x6 costs somewhere between 5 and 6 bucks. A comparable steel stud is about $2. Plus, he puts the studs on 4 foot centers, so he uses less. Also, his completed floor system (steel beams, grid, mesh, concrete and heat tube) is significantly less than the same thing done in wood. He saves a lot of money by running the heat tubing himself, rather than having a plumber do it.At any rate, my point in the original post wasn't to say I want to use this type of construction because it is so inexpensive. I realize that there are other stick framers in my area who could do the house for less. It just happened that the guys I had quote were higher. What I was really looking for was a discussion of the pros and cons of this type of building in general and in particular I was hoping Andy would explain what his hang ups with steel framing are.
*Hi Andy. I'm afraid my prejudices were showing through. I've found that introducing any procedure or material outside of most contractors' experience drives the cost up and the quality down. So, my assumption was typical residential tradesmen working with steel. The problems would start with framers on a learning curve, and proceed through plumbers leaving copper lines in contact with steel framing and electricians hating having to install bushings in the studs. Got the right width insulation batts? Using cellulose? Will the borates in it corrode the steel? Oh yeah, what about thermal bridging? I'm a trim carpenter by trade. I use a nail gun, not a screw gun. And so on.All these problems have solutions. If you've got a crew that's experienced with steel framing, and they're cheaper for the same quality job, I think you'd be nuts NOT to frame with steel. If you had just wanted to get the crew down the street to frame with steel, I'd say you were nuts to frame with steel.Andy
*Andy C-i " Plus, he puts the studs on 4 foot centers, so he uses less."Hey, let me build it with wood-I'll put the studs on 8 foot centers! Let's see him out price me now! Shoot, lets drywall both sides, we can go 16 feet O.C. No problem!
*Andy:Thanks for your reply. I agree with you that if this were a regular stick framing crew that was going to try their first steel home, I would be aprehensive to say the least. The guy I've hired does nothing but this type of construction and his crew really knows what they're doing.
*An "assisted living" residence just went up nearby with all-steel framing, and it was really quick and solid; same with a church down near my son's school. I was told that the pricing was connected to the size/scale of the building: small was cheaper in wood, large was cheaper in steel.Did some trim on one house that was all-steel. They put 1/2" ply replacing the bottom couple inches of drywall for the base and used 5/8 ply as blocking for the chair-rails and wainscotting. It had 2.5" SIPs bonded to the outside and spray foam between the studs, even the interior walls were foamed - solid as a rock.
*seems to me that by the time you add sufficient blocking to hang doors, cabinets and trim you will alot of wood in your steel frame. How do you put blocking in a wall with hat channels & studs 4' o.c.? you will definitly need to have a finish carp. do a walk thru to mak sure there is blocking in all those places that will be impossible or expensive to redo after the rock is hung.Sheath interior walls ???to me this tech nology needs to evolve alittle more before it will be practical in residential constructionJMHO.. Mr.T.
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Andy--I was looking through last year's issue on Houses and I saw a review you did of a steel floor framing system (I think is was called "Ready Deck" or something lilke that--I don't have the mag in front of me right now). In the review you said although the steel system might work for floors,you weren't convinced that steel framing was a good idea for an entire house. I'm curious why you aren't convinced? I know thermal bridging is talked about as being a problem with steel buildings, but what else is there you don't like or aren't convinced about? The reason I ask is I'm about to start building a new house and have hired a contractor who builds steel and concrete homes. It will be ICF foundation, red steel frame infilled with metal studs and poured concrete floors. After looking at this for a while I've come to the conclusion that you can't build a better house than this. Plus, the quote was more than $30/sq. ft. less than what two stick frame guys quoted me. I've already hired the contractor, so I'm not going to change at this point, but I would like to hear from you (and anyone else)as to what you think the pros and cons of this type of building are.