Can anyone help wire this switch/outlet
Need to wire in a new switch outlet combo. Outet need to be separate from swich to power a microwave. Light controlled by switch is just a two way. Switch/oulet I bought has the following:Two common screws on one side with tab intact. Other side has screw marked A1 and one marked N.
The box has just two wires, one black sheathed and another covered by some ratty azz cotton crap with some coating over the wire not sure what color. There is no ground in the box, I’m asssuming I needing to run a ground wire to the box. House is over fifty years old and their ain’t no dong gone grounds anywhere.
Is it even posible to do this?
Got it hooked w/ wire wire hooked to common and other wire hooked up to A1 but outlet doesn’t work. Directions kind of suck since I don’t have half the wires ( Ithink) that are on there.
Anybody want to help?
Not an electrician, just can’t afford one :o)
Replies
Sounds like you want to add an outlet to where there is only a switch. One of the two wires in the box is hot (110 volts). The other wire probably goes to the lamp. If I am correct then you need another which goes to neutral (return). Sorry
2 WIRES or 2 CABLES.
If it is only 2 wires and you describe them as having 2 different characteristics is the wiring in conduit?
If it is only 2 wires it can be done.
If you have conduit then you can probably fish another wire.
But what else is on that circuit? MW's draw a good bit of current.
It is just two wires. One just looks like a plain old black coated wire and the other is covered with the loomish looking stuff. Looks like it might just be a switch leg and the regrigerator is on the same circuit. Actually about half the house is on the same circuit. There are eight spaces in the box, two for the ac, two for the dryer and just four other breakers for the rest of the house. Ahhhhh......the good old days.
Edited 10/9/2005 4:51 pm ET by leftisright
50 yr old house typically has two conductor wiring - no ground unless it's flexible metal conduit that goes back to the box and even that is "suspect" as ground
since I "don't get it" - are you trying to tap into an existing outlet for the light and MW or (I think) an existing switch for an outlet for the MW?
if it's an existing switch, you need to find out if the power goes to the box and then to the load or if it comes back from the load to the switch to complete the circuit?
I'm guessing you know what breaker/fuse feeds "it" - you do need to see what is supplied since the MW will draw a fair amount of current and if you're supplying the frig and MW, almost guaranteed you'll blow the breaker/fuse when both draw at the same time (and they will at some time) - and check the MW installation instructions for the recommended elec. supply (yeah, I know, instructions?......)
if the supply is coming into the box, you should be able to cut in to the wiring and add some jumpers - you'll need two off the hot and one off the neutral with the neutral tied back to the neutral going to the existing load (light?) - one hot and the neutral jumper will feed the outlet, the other hot will go the one side of the switch with the other "cut" end going to the other side of the switch - this completes the circuit to the load when you turn on the switch - you need to use the same or heavier gauge wire for the jumpers, wire nuts to hold the wires together and insulate them from each other - plus be sure the outlet box is large enough to hold all this stuff - and since in all likelihood, the MW has a three conductor plug and you're tying into a two conductor supply, you need to do something for a ground or end up using a three conductor outlet on a two conductor supply - which I'm pretty sure is contrary to the NEC (elect. code)(?)
now that you've got all that - maybe you either want to run a new two conductor w/ground from your fuse/breaker box or start looking for an inexpensive (not "cheap") electrician since screwing this up could cost you your house (and more) if the connections fail and starts a fire......
you could do it but sounds like you need a little hands on help from someone with some experience
If I read you right you have a single pole switch with grounding outlet, ones I have are Leviton No. 838-5225 for brown. As usual black goes to the brass (labeled line usually) White goes to silver one labeled white and the wire continuing on to light goes to the screw on that same side on the switch end. I would pigtail the white from the light to to white coming in (line side cable)) and go to the white terminal. Most microwaves need or should have ground so you maybe need to run ground wire.
If you only have two wires you probably only have a switch leg and have no neutral. That would explain why it would not work.
Try this link, this is probably what you have and Dinosaur has the straight skinny on how to fix it to what you want:
http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/switchoutlet/basiclightswitch/basiiclightswitchsl.htm
Edited 10/9/2005 6:09 pm ET by rasconc
The old switch had just two wires backstabbed into it, that's where the two wires were from. I was planning to add a ground jumper to the box but now I'm not sure if it's going to be possible to add the outlet part without burning down the house.
Thanks for all the feedback.
Edited 10/9/2005 4:49 pm ET by leftisright
The two wires you have coming into the current switch box are a switch-leg coming in from the lamp fixture that switch control. Both of those wires are 'hot'; they actually comprise a single-wire loop that starts at the hot side of the feeder in the lamp fixture box, goes out to the switch and then across it, and then runs back to the fixture box where it is then connected to the hot side of the lamp fixture itself.
That being the case, you cannot power a plug outlet from the wires now in this switch box. So we'll break your project into two parts.
1. You can install the switch/plug combo unit you have purchased so that the switch part of it will control the lamp your old switch formerly controlled. For that, all you need to do is identify (with the aid of the instruction sheet) which terminals on the body of your unit are the switch terminals...and then connect the two wires in your switch box, one to each. It doesn't really matter which of the two you connect to which of the switch terminals.
Note here that many of these switch/outlet combo units are used for installations where the outlet portion of the unit is to be controlled by the switch portion. There may be a break-away tab between terminals on your unit that needs to be removed if you want to isolate the two functions.
2. To power the plug for your microwave, you will have to snake a new power feed into the switch box. This can be physically very easy, or it can be almost impossible without busting open the walls, depending on what your walls are made of, what's inside the stud bays, and how patient/persistant/ingenious you are.
If you're lucky, you will have an empty stud bay between the sole plate and the switch box in question, and all you'll have to do is remove the baseboard below the switch box, cut a small hole in the gyprock (which will later be hidden when you replace the baseboard), and finally drill a ¾" hole down through the sole plate and floor into the basement. Then you go up to your switch box, release the wire clamps holding the switch-leg into it, and cut (with a Sawzall¯) or lever out (using dykes) the nails holding the box to the stud. Wiggle the box right out of there. You should now be able to pass a new run of 14-2 NMD down through the switch box hole in the gyprock, through the hole you've drilled in the sole plate, and into the basement.
(If you get unlucky and hit a firestop, you'll have to break open the gyprock above and below the firestop and drill another ¾" hole in it.)
Now you pulll the cable across the basement overhead to your electrical service panel, install a new 15-amp breaker, and tie in your new feeder to that.
Tying into the panel is a very imposing-sounding evolution, but it's simple enough. You will need to turn off the main power to the entire house to work inside the panel. You do this by throwing the main breaker switch. Unscrew the front cover from the panel. Choose a position for the new breaker and snap it in place (some models need to be screwed in; look at the ones in there to see how it's done). Now open a ½" knock-out plug on the side or bottom of the panel box and snap in a cable clamp. Run the new feeder in through this clamp, strip off about 16 inches of outer sheath, and attach the black wire to the breaker, the white wire to the neutral buss, and the bare copper ground wire to the ground buss. Route the excess wire along the sides/bottom of the box the same way the other wires in the box are routed. That takes care of that.
Now you go back upstairs, and cut the new feeder off the reel of cable so you've got about 12" coming out of the wall. Take a new 2½"-deep Gem box and knock out a plug for (a) the new power feed, and (b) the original switch leg, and run each cable through its own knockout. Slide/wiggle/curse the box into the hole in the gyprock and screw it to the stud with two #8x¾" RH screws. There are angled holes in the sides of the box that enable you to do this with the box in place. Make sure the front edge of the box is recessed behind the gyprock surface just a tad when you're all screwed down tight. Tighten the cable-clamp screws once the box is in place and the two cables are pulled well into the box.
Strip the sheath off the new cable back to the cable clamp, cut the 3 wires to an appropriate length (about 4-6"), and attach the black wire to the hot terminal (usually the gold coloured one) on your plug/switch unit; the white wire to the neutral terminal (usually silver); and the bare ground wire to the green ground lug. Screw the plug body into the mounting tangs on the Gem box, and you're ready to turn on the power and test everything.
Label the new circuit breaker to indicate it is for the microwave outlet.
You're done.
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Nice try Dino, you just confirmed what I suspected that it will be a pain in the azz to do. Might be kind of problematic getting into the non existent basement as it is on a slab voundation. Got a better idea........it would be easier to get to the light fixture (one story w/ access in attic.....wonder if it would be possible to rewire that light fixture to turn them two wires into a hot and neutral?
Maybe use that old wire to pull in some new?
Getting to the wall kind of impossible what with the dishwasher being along the wall with a tile backsplash and then an upper cabinet over that......maybe it would be easier to tap onto the power feed for the dishwasher to power the outlet.
Guess I should just buy a new dishwasher since the wall would be open when the dishwasher is replaced.
Mebbe just remodel the kitchen since it hasn't been updated since the house was built in 1951......
Edited 10/9/2005 10:08 pm ET by leftisright
"Mebbe just remodel the kitchen since it hasn't been updated since the house was built in 1951......"
First, call a Hollywood location agency. They might just need to shoot a scene set in a '51 kitchen. Use the money to reno it into the 21st century. ;)
costofwar.com/
Edited 10/9/2005 10:12 pm ET by Pierre1
since you're on a slab and you can access the attic, you should be able to run a new 12g 2/w ground from your panel to where you want it - the kitchen cabinet actually lets you cut holes in the wall behind it and then all you have to do is repair the panel at the back of the cabinet - piece of 1/4 in luan and you're patched - could even use 1/8 in since it's just for "show" - might be worth considering running a few new lines - light, dishwasher, and then one for the MW -other thing would be to tie into the power supply for the dishwasher - could run the wire behind the existing base cabinet and hide it with some 1x stock with a rabbet cut - use a abrasive rotary bit to cut a hole in the tile for a new box one thing Dino didn't mention (and maybe it's obvious but.....) be sure you have some flashlights around when you cut the power to the house - kind of tough making the connections without light
Nice try Dino, you just confirmed what I suspected that it will be a pain in the azz to do. Might be kind of problematic getting into the non existent basement as it is on a slab voundation. Got a better idea........it would be easier to get to the light fixture (one story w/ access in attic...
Yes, go through the attic to the light fixture if you can; that would be fine as long as there is sufficient capacity on that circuit to handle the wattage of your microwave.
..wonder if it would be possible to rewire that light fixture to turn them two wires into a hot and neutral?
No, this is not possible without pulling additional conductors.
Maybe use that old wire to pull in some new?
You can try, but if the original job was done properly, the old wire will be stapled to the studs at several places and you won't be able to pull it.
Getting to the wall kind of impossible what with the dishwasher being along the wall with a tile backsplash and then an upper cabinet over that......maybe it would be easier to tap onto the power feed for the dishwasher to power the outlet.
You could tap the circuit that powers the DWasher, but you may have to avoid running both appliances simultaneously. Again, it depends on the wattage of the stuff that circuit is powering.
Guess I should just buy a new dishwasher since the wall would be open when the dishwasher is replaced.
Mebbe just remodel the kitchen since it hasn't been updated since the house was built in 1951......
An amazing number of full remodels start in just this way, actually, LOL....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Please lay off this job if you are not 100% sure of your self. Not trying to sound like an old lady but this is one of those times to bite the bullet and get help. There are only two ways to wire with AC, the right way and everyway else. There are just too many uncertanties and variables to your job to suggest anything different. You don't need the liability and if its your own place you don't need the strange voltages roaming around in your wiring waiting to bite you.
I live in a ship-yard town and used to make a good part of my income repairing home-made wiring jobs. the things I have seen here would fill a book. Bad wiring is the number two cause of house fires in this part of the woods. (don't know what # 1 is) I actually got called to investigate a burning smell in an older lady's kitchen. It turned out her past husband had wired their new kitchen with ZIPCORD!!. She was about two days from having a major fire.
I know the do-it-yourself spirit is strong but please, find some help.
Terence.
ps. It migt be worth re-wiring part of the house with more modern wiring/breakers etc. Look into it. Its money well spent.
I think heat is the number one cause of fires. Yeah, heat, fuel and oxygen - that's it! Actually, I think smoking, particularly falling asleep while smoking, is the number one cause of fires. But I'm not positive.
triangle is now tetrahedron - heat, fuel, oxygen, chemical reaction = fire (aka uncontrolled rapid oxidation producing heat, light and products of combustion)to L/R - probably a good idea to leave the MW where it works - once you get some things squared away, find an electrician and get it done
At this point, we still aren't sure whether you have conduit or loomex/romex. If it's conduit, pulling in new wires and replacing the old loomed wire will be easy. No wall busting and hole patching.
Look at where the wires come into the box. Are they flopping around loose in an opening the size of a dime? Or are they clamped right outside the box where they enter?
If it's conduit, it'll be an easy job for an electrician. You can afford to get it done right. If not, and money is really that tight, fuggedaboutit.
-- J.S.
Thanks to all who replied, I'm not going to look for an easy out on this one. You all have confirmed what I suspected all along that it is just a switch leg so there is not everything I need for a plug. Just going to leave well enough alone, replace the switch/oulet combo with a plain old switch (only 29 cents at Cheapo I'm told) and leave it for another day. Just gojng to have to move the microwave back where it was and listen to the carping from SWMBO.Sigh........another dream dashed by the breaktime crowd.
Re: "Not an electrician, just can't afford one :o)"
Save up.
Box lacks both neutral and ground. New cable needs to be run.
Re: "Is it even posible to do this?"
Yes, but you need someone who can fish cables from this box to a j-box and do it right. Difficulty and time required, and so cost, will depend on the how easy access to the boxes is and, to a lesser degree, distance.
Easily afford one or not you need an electrician. Save the beer, cigarette, morning coffee money and brown bag lunch for a week and your all set.
I know this because I am an electrician and can afford one, I work cheap for myself. Petty common call.
We've completely rewired two pre-1945 houses without gutting. Saved a fortune, BUT, it took discipline to plan and avoid the urge to take chances. The following strategy is ULTIMATELY cheaper and safer than the instinct you have toward taking power from the nearest possible source as a minimalist approach.
1) First, upgrade the panel and service, so you have lots of spaces to add breakers and circuits. This must be done by a licenced electrician and ask very carefully about whether this has implications for having to upgrade the whole house by any time limit. It's a big upfront cost (sorry) that doesn't feel like it buys you anything right away. But making that definitive move will save tons of money in wasted time and errors later. Think of it as pre-paying part of that kitchen reno (and your future workshop, and deck lighting...). Unless you do this, you will be tempted to make 'lash-up' upgrades, which you will later spend time and money to undo. In my market, the money for the service upgrade comes back at resale, even if that is as far as you get.
2) Most of your 'new' needs will want or deserve dedicated 15 amp circuits from panel to a single outlet. Computers, home entertainment, major and mid-size appliances (MW), major tools, etc. So, always add new from the panel to where it is needed. Never bodge into an existing Knob and Tube circuit. Those usually are already overloaded and have g*d-knows-what already bodged into them (copper-aluminium-copper; hidden boxes, air splices, worn, chewed, toasted, loose, etc are all possible). (And here's a controversial part: the DIY is more likely to do simple new circuit right and safely, relative to a complicated lash-in. It still SHOULD be an electrician.)
Bonus is that as you move major loads to newer circuits, you'll rely less and less on that old mega-circuit running half the house (for a while, we had what we called "the uber-neutral"). Soon that last old circuit or two is serving a few lamps and nothing with a fan or motor and could probably go another century. Consider adding one new circuit just to plugs in the central hallways - then get into the habit of using the new plugs for the vacuum.
Judicious use of the add-new strategy could completely avoid a full-house rewire or postpone it for decades. If you have 9 new circuits, two old, and all large loads (appliances) on new; chances are your insurer will leave you alone too.
3) A good electrician with a lot of 'old-work' experience can work miracles with a wire drill and fish tape. Well worth the cost which is modest. We joke about one guy having a collapsible rib-cage which allows him to travel through walls like a mouse pulling wire in his teeth. They will case your house and say "aha, with two small holes here and here, I can completely rewire the second floor from the attic." There are TONS of ways to access wall spaces and they know all the tricks. They should use those tricks to get to a new breaker - not the nearest source.
4) Don't be shy about creating some access spaces. Whenever you are doing any work on the house, anyway, take out some big sections of walls and ceilings; above, below, and behind. Keep ceilings and walls around the new service panel unfinished until after the kitchen reno.
Big openings are quick/easy to work in. They let you see someone else's mistakes. Also keeps you honest - more likely to staple things properly if you aren't bashing our knuckles. And, replacing large sections of wall or ceiling is relatively quick and easy relative to small holes.
Meant as tips you can keep or toss as you see fit. Good luck.
I've read through some of the other psot, too. Ideally, you will want a dedicated circuit solely for the microwave. Sounds like it's time to upgrade your service panel anyway.
The Breaktimer formerly known as "Steve-O"
"Preach the Gospel at all times; if necessary, use words." - St. Francis of Assisi
To reiterate to all of you that want a separate circuit for the micorwave, not gonna put the plug in at all. Sheesh sometimes you guys make a mountain out of a mole hill. I was only asking if it was wise or possible to do. I'm just gonna go back to my corner and remain a lurker. I'lll be watching you.............