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I’ve come to expect — and respect — the diverse opinions all of you are quick to share on a given topic. Hoping you will be as generous with your feedback on this question.
Expect to begin construction on our post-retirement home with the year, and will hire a general contractor. Though I’m not remotely qualified to build a house, I’m what I’d guess you’d call a “skilled homeowner” (or is that a contradiction in terms?), thanks to the likes of Fine Homebuilding, JLC, boards like this. I’ve got definite opinions (many are your fault) on everything from sheathing to housewrap to expansion joints in concrete.
So, my question: Would I be out of line specifying which technique I want used on a given aspect of the construction? To what extent should/can these issues be written into the contract?
I don’t want to create an adversarial relationship right out of the chute, nor do I want to insult a craftsman — so I’m counting on you to set me straight. Thanks!
Dan
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Hi Dan,
Do anything you want, ask for anything you want, not a problem..
Just make sure its in writing BEFORE you accept quotes from the contractors.
General contractors will bid on work based on known conditions.
What will set off an argument is not being up front with any requests.
If you want the contractor to build your house upside down, as long as you hire him to build it that way and he has priced it that way, all will be fine, except for the resale value of course.
Gabe
*Dan,A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.....If you have ideas about materials and methods, just sit down with your builder and express them to him or her before you begin. Let the builder know what and why your concerns are. Communication is the key in any relationship.Good luck with the new home.Ed. Williams
* Dan,
Joseph Fusco View Image
*It's your cash, spend it as you choose it to be spent.In general, the spoken word means nothing and is worth nothing in today's market. Spoken words may or may not be adhered to. The ability to "forget" is a wonderful thing to some builders, much to the detriment of the customer.Wrtie all your ideas down and go through them with your builder. Some he'll discount and reject with good reason. He may do the same with others simply because that's not the "way he builds." Other ideas he'll incorporate into your house, maybe into his future jobs as well.These ideas of yours may be more efficient, thus saving you material and labor and reducing your cost. They may save material but be more labor intensive, thus costing you a bit of money. Worst case is more material and more labor.The more you think out your house now and the more conversation you engage your builder in prior to the excavator ariving on site, the better feel you and your builder wil have for each other. This will result in getting more of what you want and fewer change orders/cost increases as the project progresses.When construction starts, ensure you get what you pay for and ensure you pay for what you get.Also realize that many of the "techniques" found on this and other forums may be region specific. What works in Florida may not work in Seattle or New England. when you arpproach him with your "new ideas," if appropriate, try to have some sort of documentation in terms of text or drawingsfor your ideas. These may help clarify regional jargon as well as minimize the length or your meeting. Your builder can take these materials with him as well to mull them over.Youll find out a lot about your builde in these conversations. Your essentially telling this man how he can do a better job for you. Some encourage that kind of participation, others don't. Best of luck in your endevours...Mongo
*Your builder might tolerate this type of "help", but that is exactly what he/she'd be doing, tolerating it. What was/is your profession? Did you like being given a task and then left to carry it out to your professional standards? Or did you consider it "kinda cool" when the boss, or customer, thought they knew HOW you should go about it? You would be walking a very thin line. I can tell you straight out, that I would try to honor whatever our original agreement was, but I sure wouldn't be lookin' forward to the next job with you. And I don't think we'd be developing any type of lasting relationship. If you want to call the shots to that extent, why not just hire a couple of carpenters and be responsible for all the decission making yourself? - jb
*I can see it now, your next post will be, "My builder is not listening to me". Well, maybe that's too strong. I'd be careful about using info gleaned from a mag or BBS to help "guide' your builder in the decision making. Sure, there is great knowledge freely given, but regional differences, styles and techniques, heck, even local bldg. depts. dictate the hows and whys moreso than that found here.I suggest you sit down with your builder long before the first nail is driven and discuss yours and his ideas. Bounce off each other to develop a consensus. He should be free to dispute or even disregard what you have heard. Of course, he should be able to substantiate his opinion on this or that. Remember, his time and knowledge, your money, so go in thinking you should pay him for this little--but far reaching--chat.Having some knowledge, whether derived from a mag, BBS, or firsthand, can be satisfying for you. You'll probably end up with a home better built than the unknowledgeable owner. Please, oh please, do not micromanage the guy or his crew. And, you should not be talking to any great length to the subs. Do not circumvent the general in communications.Last thing, during the event, treat everyone on the project like a real person, deserving of respect. I'm not saying you should freely hand out $20 bills--that's happened before--or treat 'em all to breakfast. Have the coffeemaker going, be there with the guys to help out with odd erands, etc. These things go a loooong way to making the workers want to be there. Everybody always wants to do their very best for folks they like.
*If Dan's feelings are strong and reach far beyond design issues -- which he should work out with an architect -- I think he ought to GC the project and hire someone with experience as foreman. If he is GC and his ideas cause cost overruns or later failures, there will be no question who foots the bill. If you hire a GC, you have to let the GC do the management. Remember too that a lot of the hot-and-heavy debates here are over things such as housewrap and, dare I say it, insulation may not matter a bit to you in the long run. (You have strong feelings about concrete expansion joints? I bet you're great to sit next to on a long flight. :)) A GC forced to work with unfamiliar techniques is going to be justifiably grumpy and more likely to err. Look at how much they like inspectors telling them their business! Handing out $20 bills, really? Now, if you handed out $50 bills, that might work. Plus catered lunches.
*Make a list of building technologies and materials that you are interested in. Visit a local building supply or two and find out if they sell the special materials that you want to use. Anything that is not in stock is going to be extra $$ to purchase and possibly extra $ to install. Visit a number of construction sites and find out which technologies are in use in your area. Contact your local building inspection dept. and find out what they know about the technologies that interest you. Rule out the methods and materials that no one in your area has heard about or that the local building inspector won't approve. This way, when you talk to a builder, he will still want to work with you. Now, keep in mind that any change from the norm is going to come down to $, sit down with a prospective builder, and talk about your ideas with an open mind. Be ready to be flexible, but be sure that the requirements you decide on are put down in writing before going forward.Even if you were to GC the job yourself, you would still get some of the "that's not the way we do it around here" line. I think that it's just human nature for people to want to do their job in their own way.
*You mean , like specifying that the roof must have 60# felt and water/ice shields along the gable edges; sill plates sealed; Bottoms/tops of drywall air sealed; all air passages to attic be sealed; electrical boxes air sealed;....etc etc. That kinda stuff?You should be able to specify that and more. You may pay extra; but you'll be happier. Just specify it all up front.
*Don't have coffee ready........Your the client, not the host.....Ed. Williams
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You didn't let me down -- thanks for the candid feedback. Maybe now I won't make a complete a** of myself.
Andrew -- you're probably right about me making a lousy neighbor on a long flight...but because I'm a banker.
You know what you call a bunch of bankers buried up to their necks in sand? Not enough sand! :)
Thanks again.
Dan
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Dan,
Don't forget, it's YOUR house and it's YOUR cash. Don't be shy.
As the saying goes, "Nothing ventured, and you end up with a piece of crap box to live in." Goes something like that, anyway...
On the bright side, if you're a banker the builder has to at least be confident you have your financing lined up. Your character may be suspect, but the money is solid!
Mongo
*If the builder can't help but build a cr*p box without the homeowner's help, get another builder!I'd hope the homeowner's input would be more subtle. Some builders are really into their craft and always looking for ways to listen and improve. Others are just set in their ways and would never consider not venting a roof ... oops.
*There are good and bad builders out there, that can't be denied. Separating the two can be a concern when shopping around for someone to build your own house. How do you propose separating the two if there is no exchange in ideas on how the house should be built?By Dan, or anyone for that matter, bringing forth his ideas to a prospective builder, I would think that someone buiding "better than crap" would be aware and possibly already implementing some of the better ideas that have been put forth on this board, whereas possibly someone who does in fact "build crap" may be more rigid in what they build and how they build it, as they always build with a bottom dollar bid in mind.In a sense it's getting a custom house vs a stock house, both in design, materials, and construction techniques.I'd think most everyone on this board has gleaned a tip or technique or two on how to "build better". If we, as builders, can incorporate these ideas, why can't a homeowner ask:* If the builder is aware or familiar with these things?*Are they suitable for his region?*Is the idea valid to begin with (does it meet code, is it a lame pipeline idea posted by a loon such as myself)?* Can the ideas be incorporated into his house?I'd be appalled if a client didn't give a care in the world about how their house was designed or have an interest in the quality of construction.If you're building on spec, then build how you chose and the buyer be damned. If the buyer is paying a premium for a custom house, shouldn't the house be tailored to his wants and desires, and shouldn't you, as a custom builder, be flexible enough to consider and implement them?If a builder chooses not to interface with a client, then bring in an architect. The 'tect can do his thing and take the builder out of the loop, thus preventing the builder from possibly suffering the trauma of being exposed to a better way of doing what he is being paid to do...providing quality shelter that fills the needs of the client. How many times have we received plans from the architect that includes a clients "pipe dream detail" that is near-impossible to build and seems to defy gravity? I'd rather kill the clients pipe dream up front before it's commmitted to both paper and the clients' heart then have an architect put that pipe dream on paper and have to be the one to say it can't be built."Involved" clients are mostly a pain when they hover on the jobsite with a set of plans, measuring each wall and window to see if they comply with what's on the plan. Once construction begins, I bring the client on the site WITH me. A brief tour in the early eve after the crew has left. Keeps the potential hassles to a minimum.We all operate in different ways. I enjoy the client interaction before the job begins. It helps to minimize suprises and the client has expectations as to what can and can't be accomplished. It also helps reduce or eliminate change orders, thus budget worries. If I'm unable or unwilling to include details they want, it's usually because I feel it's a detail that won't work, or it's unproven and I don't want to take the risk of having to come back down the road and fix the dirty detail. At my expense. They can take my advice and continue with me, or go find another builder.
*I have to agree with Mongo,the best client is an informed client.I love working with a customer who knows what they want and is willing to take part in the process to get there.The more willing you are as a builder to get involved in a relationship with a client, the better the whole experience is for everyone.As far as using diferent building styles and materials,what's the problem,thats what this buisness is about isn't it?Vince
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Dan, I can't stress this enough...Good communication between you and your contractor is an absolute must! Don't be at all afraid to bring up ideas or methods of construction that you are interested in using on your job. If your builder won't listen to you or if they don't want to discuss these things, find another builder. If you don't feel comfortable from the start, it will only get worse. Any good builder will give you the pros and cons of your ideas. I agree with some of the other guys...I like working with informed clients and certainly don't see it as a threat. If they are off the wall, we part company quickly. P.S. The cookies and coffee do work!
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As a sub, I bid the spec. If I see something that doesn't work,or I think there is a better way, I'll address it beforehand or in my bid. I'm another one who appreciates an informed client, as long as they are also open to a team effort, and are prepared to be flexible when that is the smart thing to be.
*One item that I think that is important and hasn't been mentioned is General Contractor Selection. If you want a "class house" be sure to select a contractor who knows what that is. If you want a specific style house be sure the contractor knows what that is. Look at other work to see if the GC's ideas and yours track and to provide a common reference point for the most important item in the deal; communication.You may not even know what questions to ask in a specific area and will have to rely on the contractor understanding what the ultimate goal is. I've seen too many cases where a tract home builder tried to upgrade his business by trying to build a "class home" without understanding what that was and failing in the attempt.Its' ok to take the risk on a new builder. But be sure you know what the mutual risk is.
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I've come to expect -- and respect -- the diverse opinions all of you are quick to share on a given topic. Hoping you will be as generous with your feedback on this question.
Expect to begin construction on our post-retirement home with the year, and will hire a general contractor. Though I'm not remotely qualified to build a house, I'm what I'd guess you'd call a "skilled homeowner" (or is that a contradiction in terms?), thanks to the likes of Fine Homebuilding, JLC, boards like this. I've got definite opinions (many are your fault) on everything from sheathing to housewrap to expansion joints in concrete.
So, my question: Would I be out of line specifying which technique I want used on a given aspect of the construction? To what extent should/can these issues be written into the contract?
I don't want to create an adversarial relationship right out of the chute, nor do I want to insult a craftsman -- so I'm counting on you to set me straight. Thanks!
Dan