I need to install some breakers in a hot panel. The breakers are new, but they are no longer in the tripped position that they are usually shipped in. As an added safety measure, I’d like to return them to that state before attaching them to the buss. Is it possible to do this manually (without the need for electrical current)?
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What kind of breaker is it? Most have a handle that can be moved from on to off rather easily. I just ran two new circuits in my panel for the work shop I am working on, I did it all while hot, and as long as you are careful not to short or ground anything, I don't see the reason for the concern. But, to answer your question, you should be able to cycle it on and off just like a switch.
It's a Square D "QO" panel. Yes, they'll turn on and off normally, and I''ll simply turn them off before installing them if that's my only choice. But, when they're in the tripped position, they can't be accidently energized. If I'm going to work in a hot panel I want all the protection I can get. New knowledge is priceless.
Used knowledge is even more valuable.
Just turn them off you have to push fairly hard to turn on. Turn off the main if you have concerns. With the main off the only thing in the panel that is hot is the main feed cables coming in to the panel. It go practice to be just as careful with the main off as on to keep from shorting or bumping the wrong thing. Wear rubber shoes and don't stand in a puddle .
That is the same panl I have. If you are really worried, like was stated, shut of the main, instal your breaker and then turn the main back on when you are finished.
I used to be the same way around panels, and if I have to do something that I haven't done before, I would be cautious too.
I need to install some breakers in a hot panel.
Does the panel NEED to be hot? Even for experienced electricians that's not a safe idea. It should only take a minute to pop them in, can the power be shut down for a short period of time?
"Does the panel NEED to be hot? Even for experienced electricians that's not a safe idea. It should only take a minute to pop them in, can the power be shut down for a short period of time?"
I could have the power company do a temporary disconnect, and it would certainly insure a safer job. However, a primary disconnect has to be scheduled and purchased in my area. That expense and inconvenience just isn't necessary. New knowledge is priceless.
Used knowledge is even more valuable.
What I meant is can't you just turn off the main breaker in the panel itself.
You appear to miscomprehend how the main panel breaker works -- assuming you have one (and that's a safe assumption). If you throw the main, the only things live in the panel are the small area of the connections where the hots go into the main breaker. That means the power buses in the panel (where the branch circuit breakers connect) are dead. Deader than if the breaker you are installing is in the "tripped" position -- which actuall has nothing to do with whether there is power in the panel -- only if there is power at the connector screw on the breaker.
Either that or you are asking how to get the main breaker into the "tripped" position? Personally, I wouldn't wanna even try that! ;-)
If you're nervous, hire somebody who ain't, or throw the breakers and, if it makes you feel better about it, tape them in the "off" position and test the buss prior to working.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
"Either that or you are asking how to get the main breaker into the "tripped" position? Personally, I wouldn't wanna even try that!"
Yep, that's what I was asking. I guess it's a nutty idea. It's been a rainy day. Sometimes I think too much on rainy days.
New knowledge is priceless.
Used knowledge is even more valuable.
In that case, just throw it to the "off" position and tape it so it doesn't get bumped back "on" accidentally.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
You can also pick up lock out devices at your nearest electrical distributor.
If you don't have a main breaker, you should still be able to disconnect all power from the panel in 6 hand movements. If you can't, or have no idea what I'm talking about, hire someone to do it. Electricity is nothing to 'dabble' with, especially when you're talking about the panel. Lots of kill-you-dead power in there.No Coffee No Workee!
Pull the meter, you'll have to break to utility co's seal.
But the panel will be dead, and you'll probably get some flak from the Utility for doing it, otherwise, hire a sparky, if you dont have the confidence to do it on your own, safelyr2
Reading this last note about scheduling disconnects raises my concern about the adequacy of your knowledge.If nothing else, get Rex Reed's Taunton Press book on residential wiring and read it CAREFULLY and Fully -- twice --before proceding.I believe the big boxes carry it.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
Tak'em out to your car, put'em all across the battery terminals,
You will have them all in the tripped position, easy source of current to trip'em.
But, really, why bother? Never even ever crossed my mind to worry about your concern.
If electricity scares you THAT much, not a DIY job??
(from an old reprobate who still often checks 120V 60Hz with fingers and 9V batteries with tongue - but with enough 'used' knowledge to know when NOT to do so)
I don't get it. Isn't there a code requirement that there be a main disconnect upstream of the panel? (or inside the panel) (And I don't mean the utility company disconnect on the primary conductors out on the street).
Scott.
Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
>>Isn't there a code requirement that there be a main disconnect upstream of the panel? (or inside the panel) Older codes spoke of disconnecting all circuits with no more than "ix hand movements."Some folks read that as "if I can get 10 breakers with the edge of my hand, I can have 60 breakers without a main."Last I looked (2003?) code called for no more than 6 breaker movements or some such.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
>>>Older codes spoke of disconnecting all circuits with no more than "ix hand movements."Wow, can't say I've ever heard of that. I've never seen a panel that you couldn't cool down with main breakers.In fact, even all the old fuse type panels here (Canada) have big ol' external lever-action knife switch disconnects.Oh well... different strokes for different folks....Scott.Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
They're rare around here, but I've seen a couple and heard it discussed in inspection seminars
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
Wow, can't say I've ever heard of that. I've never seen a panel that you couldn't cool down with main breakers.
Yeah, they exist. And some exist with 8 hand movements and more. Split bus panels use at least 2. And I stand corrected on the number of hand movements...it is 6. And, no, that doesn't count if you use your arm.
Ususally seen in a little older homes, but not teribly uncommon in some new ones, depending on size of the home.
I definitely think this person should hire someone to do this. Though I thoroughly enjoyed the car battery comment. I can see this happening in my mind...and it is funny.
No Coffee No Workee!
FWIW: residential breakers have 3 potential states: On -- Off -- Tripped.
When working in a hot panel, to insert one I insert the wire first being sure it is tightly fastened, and, being sure the breaker is Off, push it into position.
OTOH, since you're not aware of, or uncertain about, this basic fact, I urge you to consider whether your general state of awareness/knowledge is otherwise high enough to be working in a hot panel or with circuits at all.
For example - do you know whether the panel you're in has a floating neutral? Are you certain you know where to connect the ground and the neutral, and make the connections properly AND safely?
What you don't know you don't know can kill you.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman