Can you lay slate tiles right on ply?or?
Waters
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
Can 12×12 slate be set right on a sound plywood subfloor if you use the best quality latex mod. thinset?
I have 1/2″ of solid core underlay over 7/8″ solid boards for the subfloor. I had thought to use DITRA but it’s so expensive.
If it’s common practice to go right on the plywood, I will. If not then DITRA, or is there another way to not gain any more height?
Thx,
pat
Replies
I have and I would provided your joist depth and spacing meets spec.
You will see that a lot of folks here will start crying and tell you that you need sixteen layers of cement board laid in opposing directions, glued and screwed with SS screws and prayed over (add a vooddo chant) to lay tile or stone over what you have.
Top layer of ply should be exterior glue, and ultimately it should be glued to the subfloor, and screwed down well to the joists and field.
Use top shelf latex modified thinset. Read; Mapei
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Joists's are good--floor no bouncy bouncy.
I get my stuff from Florida Tile.. I'm not sure the brand, but it seems they have a top-shelf thinset... Ultra flex or whatnot. I knowit's wayyyyy better than Durabond @ HD.
I will ask if it compares to the Mapei.
Sure would be nice to just lay it on down. maybe I'll try a few test tiles.
I assume I would have to use latex mod. grout then too?
Thanks,
Pat
As Idaho stated, a bonding agent over the ply would be a good idea. Clean the plywood_sweep, vacuum, damp sponge.
Brush or roll on bonder. I have used Wilbond (sp) A good mason supply will have it, possibly a drywall supplier. I guess a tile supplier may as well.
I 'd be careful about grout. Don't go too modified. Talk to your tile supplier and make sure you seal the slate well.
Here again, my practices may differ. I've used a temp sealer intended for decorative masonry blocks etc., intended to keep the mortar from sticking to the block during install.
Use LOTS of clean water when grouting. Try to only grout the grout lines and not run it all over the faces of the tiles.[email protected]
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Did a foyer last year with slate over 1/4" hardibacker. Didn't seal before grouting and didn't need to, cleaned up OK. I used a grout bag to fill the joints and then worked in with the float. If slate tiles are uneven thickness (mine were) when shaping the grout, work from the low tile to the high one and ramp the grout so as not to have a proud edge. Good luck.
Yes, I've put down several slate floors, but never right on the ply subfloor. As to the uneveness and 'ramping' the grout, I know exactly what you mean. Years ago I put slate down in my own little kitchen in our first house. I'd bought about 300 castoff slates from the tile store what were mostly displays--all different color and all different thickness--most also different size by 1/16 to 1/4 " which I fixed with the tile saw.
The thickness varied so much that I put the thickest tiles on the side of the kitchen where the foundation had sunk the most.. then went thinner across the room.
The result was a flatter/more level floor of all different colored slates--sort of patchwork. Went great with our funky concrete counters, bright orange cast iron kohler sink and junkyard cabinets painted bright colors.
Lot of tinkerin' around but for myself it was worth it. These days I make my living from remodeling and wouldn't think to take that much time.
That house also had a 'cobble block' end grain floor made of more than 6,000 end cuts from d-fir 2x6 squared up on the planer. It was beautiful and durable but again that was when I had much more time than money!
Cheers,
Pat
I have a product called dek-o-weld that appears to be white glue... Got that from local plaster/drywall supply. Sound similar?
What is your preferred sealer for stone? I have used lots of the tilelabs polymer sealer in the yellow bottles.
I've seen JASCO used, looks shiny when finished--has wet look. I like htat, but the tile guy that did that job also screwed up the electric radiant system--whole quadrants don't work in it--and did not remove any of the baseboards or undercut jambs and casings before tiling--he just tiled right up to everything.
When I went to put in a couple new entry doors for these folks all the woodwork was captured by his tile job and a real pain in the azz to fix...
Thanks Eric--always good advice from you.
Pat
I have a product called dek-o-weld that appears to be white glue... Got that from local plaster/drywall supply. Sound similar?
My stuff is pink but smells just like Elmers or yellow wood glue. Same properties and consistency.
Sealers Choice?
Tile Lab is HD's stock right?
Not so great. There is sealer, then there is enhancer. Enhancer tends to darken and is sometimes wet looking.[email protected]
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I'll ask the masonry supply about me 'dek-o-weld- just to be sure. I'm about to launch into this one and don't want it to go foul so I think I'm going to do a test. Take a bunch of slate scraps and schmooie 'em down a variety of ways and give them the ol' blu bar test.
If I do I'll be sure to report the results.
The tile lab stuff (sealers, haze removers and whatnot) is sold at most of the bigger boxes.. I'll ask the tile supplier what's proven.
What is the name of a sealer you like?
Thanks for all the help
What is the name of a sealer you like?
I think it's called Sealers Choice. That may not be the brand name though, I'll see if I have on around and check this morning.[email protected]
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Yes!
I didn't get it in your earlier post "Sealers Choice"
I was like, what's the choice... But that's what my tile supplier had and what I got.
Thanks Much
pat
Durabond for tiles?
I think he means Versabond.
yeah, versabond.
I've put down slate over both cement backer and ply, but i had failure over ply when i used a brand other than Mapei. (See first photo, using Versabond thinset from HD with ceramic tiles.) Most of the mortar came up with the tile, but it could be peeled off pretty easily from both surfaces the second day. I could pull up any tile with my fingertips.
The Mapei thinset is used to re-lay the floor worked perfectly,and it's been walked on for two years. I also used Mapei over ply with slate recently. Though it hasn't been down long, i checked for looseness before grouting and there was none at all. I had the same subfloor and ply as you in both instances.
Thanks.
Pat
Hey there,
Looks a lot like you had a mess there.Couple things:
-It looks like your thinset was too dry (stiff). Just looking at how the tiles/floor/thinset separated-The tile and floor suck moisture right out of the thinset further creating a weak bond.
-Hot tiles that have been in the sun can "cook off" (dry out and not bond to thinset) too fast when setting. Spay or dunk smaller tiles with water.
-I usually dunk 4 1/4 x4 1/4" ceramic tiles in a bucket for a few minutes .
-The acrylic modified thinsets have better adhesion under these conditions, but right consistiency is important.
-Acrylics have more flex and for ply substrates.
-Acrylics bond to underlayment membranes.This might sound wierd but I discovered this as a kid....
Touch you tongue to the back of a ceramic 4x4/ 6x6 tile for a few seconds and you can feel it suck the moisture out of tongue.
(no, it's not just to see how many people will try it. Seriously)
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Judo Chop!
Edited 1/11/2007 4:02 am by LEMONJELLO
Thanks for the ideas. I'd asked for advice on bonding agents before (not here) and it was conflicting so i opted not to use it, but i will rethink my position on that in case too mush water is being sucked out of the thinset. For the other... I had a similar non-adhesion problem one other time 12 years ago when laying my very first slate over ply, using a thinset from the Quikrete family that time, with a latex admixture. I remedied that problem using a different mortar called "Spec Mix" that i got at a masonry supplier instead of the hardware store. Fortunately, that was a small bathroom job. Unfortunately, the Spec Mix wasn't available when i needed to lay the kitchen job in the photo, so i went to our new HD and picked up their Versabond. The Quikrete and the Versabond felt different to me from the Mapei, like the difference between working with pie dough or bread dough, if you will. I could crumble the leftover dried Quikrete and Versabond in my hands, while the leftover Spec Mix and Mapei thinset dried like a rock.I would have thought it a mixing problem, dry tiles (it was winter, our driest season in MT indoors), pilot error, or bonding agent issue except that i just last month used the Mapei over ply, no bonding agent, with slate...and the slates wouldn't budge after only a short time in place. The only significant difference seems to be the brand of thinset.I always sand, sweep, vacuum, then mop my plywood before laying tile or slate. With the tile, it's certainly possible that having been laid once, then pulled up, the tiles and ply had more moisture in them when they were laid a couple days later in the Mapei thinset, but i wouldn't think that would be much of a factor in the earlier slate problem, slate being less porous.Anyway, i'm "sticking with" Mapei! <groan>
It's a good product. I've used it often too.
Sounds like you did great surface prep, sometimes ship happens!
I get your point on material consistiency, each brand and type are different.
To me some feel like peanut butter, some like frosting, others are goey.__________________________
Judo Chop!
Peanut butter, pie dough, frosting, and bread...mmmm, makes me want to go mix up a batch for lunch! <G>
I have always used TEC thinsets that I get from Menards . It sets up like a rock also . I had to take a tile off of durok in a shower to install an afterthought soap dish. Basicly had to destroy the durok to get the tile removed.
I haven't seen that brand in these parts and we don't have Menards yet, but good info is never wasted. I tried the Mapei just bec i'd read Gabe extolling it long before Lowes showed up in Missoula carrying it. He praised it so hard, i assumed for a long time it was a Canadian brand instead of an Italian company. Gabe and i don't see eye-to-eye on much, but the boy knows his cement.
I had never seem Mapei around these parts , We just got a HD a few years ago . I have only been in there maybe six times . The only time I was down the tile isle was to pick up Red Gaurd.
A bonding agent is probably not a bad idea, although scratch coating with a good quality thinset is probably all you need. Never worked on plywood so can't say for sure--too busy praying over stainless screws. :-)
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Would this be the same type of bonding agent (basically white glue) that i've used to help new plaster adhere to old painted walls and whatnot?
I have some called "dek-o-weld" by w.r. meadows that I got from the local plaster/dwall supply.
?
Thx
pat
The stuff I've used is specifically for bonding "cementuous products" to ply. I've never used it with tile, but it works well with floor leveler.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Ever try and pull a tile offa CDX plywood? Its near impossible. That answer your question?
January 20, 2009 Duhhhbya's last day in office : )
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I have used self furring stucco netting stapled down on the ply first then a thick 3/8" coat of thinset over it. just enough to cover the wire let cure a couple of days. then apply your tile with more thinset. it will cut down on cracks later.
People used to install directly on ply for many years. It's not current practice, but it was done successfully in the past.
I wonder if part of Splinties problem was that the first time she laid the tile, the ply sucked too much moisture out of the thinset. And that's why some folks here are suggesting a bonding agent.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I think she used a poor quality thinset.
Giving the plywood a thorough cleaning is a must to me. Sweep, vacuum, sponge. Even to the point of it being wet.
Applying bonder takes another 30 minutes. It's a no brainer. Cheap insurance too.[email protected]
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