Hello Breaktimers,
I’m usually a hit and run(lurk) kind of guy…my profile says Nov. 2004 but I’ve been around longer than that.
There are a few things I need to say-never properly introduced myself-
I call myself a carpentry and woodworking entrepreneur- I’ll build a house or a garage; be a project manager for a new horse arena; build a walnut veneer conference table;trim out a custom house;install hand rails;remodel/renovate;build cabinets ;install a kitchen. I love variety…and always try to do my best. Work mostly by myself; DW is very talented-does all of our design work ,all of our finishing ,wood refinishing and the bookkeeping. Also hire subs as we need them.
Been in business since ’89 and this year I’m rethinking it all. Mostly because of BREAKTIME. Currently reading and digesting Michael Stone as recommended and have checked in at jlc-online as well. I have raised my prices considerably and have learned “business and trade secrets” that probably would not have occurred to me in this lifetime otherwise.
I can’t say enough good things-BREAKTIME has been an enormous help and inspiration- I may not say much but I sure have picked a lot up- so thanks to all and I mean it.
Business at hand- I also teach which has become one of my favorite things. I just picked up a class at the local community college where I teach woodworking and cabinet making. The new class is blueprint reading-intermediate and advanced to 2nd year carpentry apprentices and Thursday was my first day. This class is 4 hours, once a week for 8 weeks followed by the advanced class.
The former teacher was very disorganized and I have to create a curriculum in a hurry.
The basic format is to present a set of prints and then a test. So I’m looking for some kick
books with prints in them&
#160;and also for 1 page “blueprint challenges” from the real world.
When I was struggling with a high school tech class I received some advice from here to keep it real and I took that to heart.
I’m trying to keep it real and any help would be greatly appreciated…
silver
Replies
HI HO Silver. Can' t help you much but can sympathise with teaching on the fly. Taught Auto Mechanics at Lakeview High in T-Bay years ago. That Finnish breakfast place still going strong?
Sounds like you've taught before. I tought for about 12 years, mostly at College level. Got to keep it interesting and motivating. Most importantly gain their respect (Which means respecting them), and with your skills that shouldn't be a problem.
Let's not confuse the issue with facts!
gdcarpenter...
That Finnish breakfast place still going strong?
Kangas or Hoito?? I eat the odd bite at Kangas Sauna-usually chili and rye toast
or a late breakfast-eggs benedict,best in town.
I've been teaching for over 12 years as well-keeps the grey matter fired up...
cheers,silver
I bet these folks could help;
http://www.nccer.org/index.asp
It's a curriculum, ready to go.
Really good quality, too.
Also, if you take any random issue of FHB or The Journal of Light Construction there are enough ideas between those covers to teach something new to an apprentice 4 hours every day of the week for a month.
Likewise, if you went to a local drafting firm, told them what you were doing, asked them for a a set of drawings for project to use in class they might help.
I did structural review for a drafting firm for a while. We always had piles of drawings that a draftsman made mistakes on, and always the drawings that the designer would review for accuracy before I redlined them.
That could be a lot of fun for the students, and real easy to teach.
OK class, what's right and what's wrong with this picture?
Can you give me a material takeoff?
Draw me a section? A detail?
The possibilities are endless.
Edited 1/7/2006 7:19 pm by Catskinner to remove html tags
Edited 1/7/2006 7:20 pm by Catskinner
"Likewise, if you went to a local drafting firm, told them what you were doing, asked them for a a set of drawings for project to use in class they might help.
I did structural review for a drafting firm for a while. We always had piles of drawings that a draftsman made mistakes on, and always the drawings that the designer would review for accuracy before I redlined them.
That could be a lot of fun for the students, and real easy to teach.
OK class, what's right and what's wrong with this picture?"
Thanks Catskinner,
I know an architect in town and will ask for some plans...he's one of the most innovative and imaginative-probably way more interesting than the 20 year old plans from the storage room the students have been working off for the past 12 years.
The hard part is coming up with the tests but I've been told that I'll be teaching this again so it's worth the trouble to have a course that is ...fresh.
I'll never forget the time I visited my hometown and my old grade school to hear a dull lecture through an open window-
imagine my surprise...when I looked in, it was one of my best buddies from grade school now in front of the class...never want to be mediocre...thanks for your thoughts...
silver
<<The hard part is coming up with the tests>>If you asked your students to;calculate cut and fill based upon the topo, do a material takeoff, find all of the dimensional busts, close all of the open dimension strings, develop a few sections, figure out where the electrical and plumbing conflicts might occur, identify the structural load paths, point out any life safety concerns, and check all of the sheets to make sure that they stack right if you overlay themand they can do that, I'd give them an "A" and then post their resume on Breaktime so they can start work on Monday morning.
catskinner-maybe you could elaborate on these just a bit. I really like this twist-rather than q & a, it becomes more "real job oriented"
calculate cut and fill based upon the topo- do a material takeoff
they do this in another estimating class-
but- find all of the dimensional busts, or at least 5
close all of the open dimension strings, not sure what you mean by this??
develop a few sections, right on-right brain stuff
figure out where the electrical and plumbing conflicts might occur, ok
identify the structural load paths, this is a great idea!
point out any life safety concerns, like what??
and check all of the sheets to make sure that they stack right if you overlay them
I think you're on to something here- thanks for your thoughts...
silver
Glad to be of help.<<close all of the open dimension strings, not sure what you mean by this??>>I have often wished that architects would use two different colors of ink, one for when they wanted me to treat the drawing as instruction that they had already worked out and knew to be good, and one to indicate that they have no idea what they are doing but had to draw something to make it look like a house, and as long as I just build something there it will all be OK.But they don't. So we have to figure out how many of the logical contradictions that they have drawn in can be removed and still achieve the design intent.It's easy to draw all kinds of stuff that can't exist in 3d.So what some architects, designers, and draftspeople will do is leave you with partial dimension strings. In other words, they just don't put in any dimensions where they know that there is a problem. Then it becomes your problem.There is probably not a builder here at Breaktime who hasn't looked at a set of drawings, done the math, and said "What the #@!%^&* was this (*) thinking of? First day with the new crack pipe?"Or something like that.The key is to find all of this stuff before you even dig the first bit of dirt or cut the first board.<<point out any life safety concerns, like what?? >>Will an egress window fit? Are the doors in the right places? Do stairs meet code? Accessibility?I've seen those problems ruin projects. I was on one a few weeks ago (I was just there to do finish grade) and the windows in the bedrooms did not meet egress requirements. The house was mostly done, the windows are all custom, and the lead time for replacements is 7 weeks.Call the framers, bring 'em back.Call the drywall guys, bring 'em back.SO sad about the exterior finish that's already on.The homeowner is now livid, and the bank isn't real happy either.Oops, better call the painter, the flooring guy, and the finish carpenters, they're all going to have to wait until we are done fixing this to trim out, or maybe we could get them to come back again just for the bedrooms.If the super knew how to read none of this would ever have happened.Of course nobody is real happy with the architect right now either, but a good super should have caught that.Jeff's idea is good.If you need drawings, put a note up. I just threw away an office full this year, someone here must have some.
WE get plans from homeowners that they pay good money to "designers and architects" that aren't wortha rats #### when it comes to some important bearing issue, etc.We just either tell we'll get an engineer to make it right and it costs this much, or if they are beholden to that arch, we walk away. I don't know how anyone can even begin to price a job with tons of open ends. But I've been told, "Joe Home Builder didn't have that problem, he gave us a number why can't you?"Because either JHB is an idiot, a #### artist or likes to redraw and guess everything for free.But you can't really tell the customer that in they way I'd like to.Once we had a homeowner ask us to build according to some plans he gave us that had all kinds of important omissions (a giant 12 pitch roof bearing down on a vestibule roof below that called for a cathedral ceiling comes to mind). Turned out he was a builder/project manager himself and made the errors to weed out the idiots.
back in trade school we had a blue print class ...
book plans were what we were supposed to study ... but the teacher got a hold of some real working drawings ... full set of new const home.
Gotta tell ya ... there's a reason experienced GC's tell diy homebuilders to not use book plans! World of difference.
I say find some real world plans and turn them loose. Much better learning experience. Bet if ya asked nicely ... or emailed some of the builders around here privately ... you'd end up with some prints to use in class.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I say find some real world plans and turn them loose. Much better learning experience. Bet if ya asked nicely ... or emailed some of the builders around here privately ... you'd end up with some prints to use in class.
Hey Jeff,
Now I'm starting to get excited! Sounds great...and you're right on...I've always hated lame school "stuff" especially outdated material.
So I am asking nicely-if any builders would be willing to share plans and specs ,especially out of the ordinary projects, with my blueprinting reading classes, I certainly would appreciate it and would be happy to cover shipping costs.
best regards,
silver
Sounds like a nice gig Silver and good luck with it.
Whenever the topic of blueprints comes up, my first thoughts are toward me, the framer. I immediately feel the surge of anger welling up in me because of the volumes of money I've lost because I had to reconstruct, redesign and re figure the dimensioning on a set of plans. Nothing irks me more than finding vague or ommitted data on a set of "completed" working plans.
With that thought in mind, I'd advise you to teach the younguns to be thorough in their review of the plans and to be able to fill in the missing blanks. Someone's already mentioned filling in dimensional strings. That one particularly irks me, especially if the plans are computer generated. A simple click of the mouse would put in the dimension and I swear, I've had to spend as much as an hour tracking down a dimension, sometimes more. The importance of some of these missing numbers cannot be casually dismissed. Yes, some aren't that critical, but others will make or break you, especially if your working with prefabbed items such as trusses and the house has lots of offsets and rooflines that plummet down from the second floor to the first. Often, it becomes a detectives nightmare making sure that the truss designer has deduced the same dimensions as I have in the case of missing strings.
With that thought in mind, I'd suggest visiting a local custom home subdivision and getting out into the mud and getting an old set of plans from a framer. I'd ask the framer what problems or challenges he incurred with the set of plans, then bring that discussion back to class. The test would be to find the reasons why the challenges occurred, then come up with a solution so the plans were more self explanatory.
Come to think about it, I have to do this on every job!
I wish you had made a request a bit sooner. I recently shredded a set of plans that contained over 50 archetectual errors or ommissions. Luckily, we were overpriced on the job and I didn't have to frame it. Part of the reason that we were overpriced was because we knew we'd have significant design and consultation because of the architect. We'd already lived through a nightmare with this particular on. This is real world stuff.
blue
<<I immediately feel the surge of anger welling up in me because of the volumes of money I've lost because I had to reconstruct, redesign and re figure the dimensioning on a set of plans. Nothing irks me more than finding vague or ommitted data on a set of "completed" working plans.>>We must have been thinking and typing pretty much the same thing at the same time. Well said.I have called architects and asked them if they really wanted the windows underground.My wife has gently suggested that we could pay cash for an airline ticket, I could fly to ***, beat the architect, get back on a plane, and be home for work the next morning, and nobody would know the difference.(This was back before 9/11. Now we'd have to hire a private aircraft. <G>)
Thanks for your thoughts, blue and you made some real good points that I will take back to the class...
In fact,I think I'll print your reply and read it...you said it well and hopefully it will help these young guns in their pursuits...which in my mind is the true role of education.
This thread is really helping me to come up with a real world plan.
silver
outside and outside ... rough and finish ... it happens all too much!
just helped a buddy with a high end kitchen install.
he's a captive sub ... 100% of his work thru this place ... you'd think this wouldn't be much of a problem ... anyways ... two tone kitchen. We get the bigger delivery ... stock color. Special order cab's to come later. They're going in the "center" of the cab run ... the sink ... coupla cabs left and right ... all bumped out away from the wall with some fancy columns/corbels ... that middle part is the fancy color.
No problem ... just measure tight ... and exact ... then fit them in later.
A fine plan ... till that shipment shows up ... after everything else is set ... and trapping that section in ...
sems there's a mystery panel. 3/4" panel ... finished in the special color ... gotta go somewhere, right? So we look at the prints again ...
BTW .... these high end kitchens ... millions or parts and pieces ... supposed to be details of everything .. anyways ...
That ply ... was to go right next to the dishwasher ... as the part right next to the dishwasher .. is a rounded column. So ... if U looked at the side ... of the round ... you'll see down and behind the dishwasher. Can't see that .. so better get some wood back there.
Only problem ... they drew ... and laid out the measurements ... from the face frames.
The ply panel was supposed to "slip behind" the DW panel ... but it was only penciled in ... no actual change to the face frame measurements was made or adjusted.
They had us fitting in 3/4 additional material ... with no actual figuring that the 3/4 material ... would actually take up 3/4" of space!
Then ... we realised ... seeing as how this was like most other kitchens ... centered off the window above the sink ... there was no second 3/4" what ever ... to fill in and balance that side of the space.
It was a big mess. Actually had to pull ... cut down cabs ... and reinstall ... and hope to get the space needed .... we then decided we could "find" .. an inch.
so ... the original piece of ply became 1/2"ply ... so we could balance the "other" side of the sink with the same filler ... so the upper cab's would make sense.
All because some designer just saw what they left out ... and made a notation ... instead of actually changing the measurements. Glad this one wasn't one of my jobs ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Really good points Jeff.Your post helped me think of some specifics.Are the dimensions pulled from / to face of framing or face of finish?I'v seen both and neither. I have no idea why some draftspeople will draw a 2x4 stud wall with 1/2" drywall both sides as being 4" thick, but I've seen it several times. It's tough on the cabinet installers sometimes.It's brutal on the electricians in a tight hallway with a door at the end.No matter where the dimensions are pulled from, is it consistent from sheet to sheet on the drawings? That mistake can cost you a truss package.Slab on grade, it can cost you your plumbing layout. If it's exposed finish concrete floor it can cost you all of the profit on the job.If you are somewhere that the MEC applies and you have to insulate the foundation, are the drawings face of foam or face of concrete?Now there's a bust that will ruin your day if is not communicated to the concrete crew. I've seen a few foundations that were exactly 2" off -- or 4".Does the sheathing overlap the foundation or die flush?Doesn't matter sometimes, sometimes it does.Did the draftsperson leave you enough room in the bathroom walls to fit plumbing inside the wall AND install the tub?If these things can be taught in school it will save a lot of trouble in the field.Maybe I could help finish the syllabus, go back in time, take this class, and then do my career over again. <G>
Have fun with that class. Don
Thanks, Don. It's starting to shape up that way.
Did the draftsperson leave you enough room in the bathroom walls to fit plumbing inside the wall AND install the tub?
If these things can be taught in school it will save a lot of trouble in the field.
Maybe I could help finish the syllabus, go back in time, take this class, and then do my career over again. <G>
Certainly gives me a new perspective...I haven't had many print issues because our drawings are always done in-house and I know they work because we've gone over them several times in revisions.
When I was installing lots of handrail, I saw stairs that no one had ever thought about how the rail would actually work and look or realized that stairs are a volume that occupy space for 2 or 3 floors.
This thread is really helping to take this class "out of the old school box" and into something that will hopefully give these young guns some tools and tricks they can use in their daily work and make themselves more valuable to their bosses and themselves.
Although the School of Hard Knocks is probably part of all their career paths, I would hope that I can take the advice from this thread and in some way impart some of this hard earned wisdom.
We shouldn't all have to learn things the hard way...
BTW, just occurred to me that I could also talk to my subs and find out what their common problems with prints/framing are...I know my plumber said that bathroom floors that weren't framed with the plumbing in mind were a major PITA until the framers were educated-in a sub divsion this could be 10 houses wrong before they realize the plumber has a problem with a joist in the center of the stack.
cheers.
silver
<<BTW, just occurred to me that I could also talk to my subs and find out what their common problems with prints/framing are...I know my plumber said that bathroom floors that weren't framed with the plumbing in mind were a major PITA until the framers were educated-in a sub divsion this could be 10 houses wrong before they realize the plumber has a problem with a joist in the center of the stack.>>Yep, that's it. Back when I was concerned with such things, I started bringing my subs in for design review before construction documents were finalized.Saved a bunch of screaming and swearing, and maybe even a little money.You might even bring subs in as guest speakers in the advanced classes.
You might even bring subs in as guest speakers in the advanced classes.
Hey, that sounds good...thanks for the thought
silver
This is a great post.......lots of good info.
I have seen a book somewhere, JLC or otherwise, that has 50 or so examples of real world problems that have occurred on projects..Kind of a learn from other peoples mistakes. This book may also help.
Have you looked for DVD classes, or online classes that you could look at for context? It would be real interesting to see a tape of your class. (maybe a business opportunity for you).
Good Luck!
one thing I do remember from my brief print reading class ... was the instructor telling us ... No matter how "standardized" bloue prints have become ....
every archy draws them different!
Said yer shooting yourself in the foot if you expect the next set to be just like the last set.
I think good general advice ... just means ... actually read and try to understand them first.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
No doubt about it, you are right.And anyone who ignores that advice does so at their own peril. Typically blueprints are incorporated by reference into the contract, so all of those little notes then constitute a contractual obligation.I've found some apparently extraneous notes casually slapped into a drawing that would have sunk my boat if I hadn't seen it. I bet we all have.My apprenticeship school instructor told me to read every word, no matter what if it takes a long time, sit there until you understand it.His advice was to use a highliter marker and mark everything as you go on the bid set so you know you didn't miss anything.I took his advice, and I use three colors, green for "I understand, this makes sense", yellow for "I'd better ask the architect or engineer for clarification because something doesn't add up here" and red for "What the f%^$ was this the first day with the new crack pipe this cannot exist in 3 dimensions".It sounds dumb but it has saved me a lot of money over the years.We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security.
-Dwight David Eisenhower, U.S. general and 34th president (1890-1969)
Catskinner, I've told every carpenter the same thing: read every word on the plan and if you can't figure something out, keep thinking about it till you figure it out.
I tell them the same thing for the truss packages. I myself once had to spend a day and a half (that's 12 hours) studying a set of truss specs before I could start the job.
I love your advice on using different colored highlighters. That's a keeper!
blue
Funny you guys bring up the issue of prints right now. We actually have a framing job that required some structural changes in the way we frame it, my engineer dropped off some plans at the last minute, after we signed with the customer. Not too thrilled about it, but since my partner has extensive commercial experience and we have a good working relationship with the engineer, we have been able to work into the existing plan.Thing is, when the framer we had learned about the changes, he took one look at the first set of plans and flipped his wig. Ok, onto the next....and the next and the next...until we are at the point of thinking we'll do this ourselves with a little help.I know for a fact that at least one of the "framers" we had asked for a bid did not study the plans, take any notes or look at them critically at all. But he gave us a 'number' that he couldn't back up or explain.Looking at plans is one area where patience, critical thinking, analysis and mental organization are essential. Oh...and the ability to call up the engineer and say, "What the hell is this?" which we did a couple of times, or "What if we did this..."Only one framer, who we are still talking to, called us with specific questions. That speaks volumes for me.
Thing is, when the framer we had learned about the changes, he took one look at the first set of plans and flipped his wig. Ok, onto the next....and the next and the next...until we are at the point of thinking we'll do this ourselves with a little help.
I know for a fact that at least one of the "framers" we had asked for a bid did not study the plans, take any notes or look at them critically at all. But he gave us a 'number' that he couldn't back up or explain.
Looking at plans is one area where patience, critical thinking, analysis and mental organization are essential.
Oh...and the ability to call up the engineer and say, "What the hell is this?" which we did a couple of times, or "What if we did this..."
Only one framer, who we are still talking to, called us with specific questions. That speaks volumes for me.
Interestingly enough Girlbuilder, you and I probably wouldn't be able to get together on a deal. I don't spend hours doing bids. I spend minutes, sometimes seconds. I would be that framer that didn't study the plans, didn't take any notes or look at them critically at all. Even if I take the plans home with me and tell you I'll get back tomorrow with a price, I'm still not going to invest anything more than two or three minutes.
Guess how much time I've saved in my career because I have this attitude? A lifetime!
On the other hand, once I actually have the job, then my money is on the line. That's when I put the serious time into the plans, unless they are a routine McMansion or something simple like that. In that case, becasue I've had so much experience doing these, I start my "studying" the day I start the job, onsite.
Every situation is different, but I wouldn't rule out anyone simply because they won't get caught up in the countless lost hour "bidding war".
One last thing. We dont' see final engineering on perhaps 95% of the houses we do, until we show up to do the job. It's not available until maybe the day before. In our "bid", we just assume that there will be some structural issues and our bid covers that. Experience is quite helpful in knowing which style houses require what types of engineering feats.
blue
This job was a done deal, signed and all. he had the job and we actually agreed to price prior to the changes. All I asked was for him to take lookee and we'd discuss the changes. In that instance I had a budget to follow and I knew there was more work involved than he had agreed to originally. I thought I was being more than fair. His attitude cost him a good paying gig, too bad, his loss.I would think that someone would want to know what they are getting into prior to pricing a job. I don't expect a lot of footwork for something that isn't signed, but this was not the case. Nor do a majority of residential frame-ups call for complicated plans. We framed for a company for about a year(no that is not the sum total of experience in framing) and all they ever gave us was a basic floor plan and a take-off sheet. The inconsistencies and omissions on their part were grotesque and not our responsibiliy to shoulder. Frankly, with lawsuits going up all the time, I'd prefer to have more information between myself and the customer and give the subs all the information the need/want to make sure they know what they are getting into. That's the way I prefer to do business.
As an architect/designer working for a commercial contractor, I get to see it from both sides to some extent. As you guys have figured it out, no set of plans are perfect, to say the least. I love doing what I do because you have to think through how guys in the field would put it together and then work backwards from that. It is helpful to have good subs to turn to to ask those kind of questions, but it only goes so far, thus the problems. And those pesky last minute changes that don't get properly incorporated into the drawings and specs because someone had a Great Freakin'!!! Idea three days before we promised the drawings to the client/contractor/bid date, etc. QC helps a lot on things like this, but you only catch so much, which is why the contracts get written with lots of waffle words like "generally accurate", etc.
The last straight architecture/engineering firm I worked for (and work with sometimes still) did two things on dimensions of note: one, all the dimensions were to face of stud/structure/steel unless otherwise noted (this note was on the general notes on the cover sheet, and typically on each page), and two, would often times leave open strings on the interior dimensions purposely. The overall dimensions were given, and all dimensions/locations were supposed to be able to be found by calculations (the goal, anyway), but the open interior strings were there so the contractor had some "wiggle" room and had a place where the dimensions weren't critical. These aren't busted strings, but intentional gaps.
Oh, and on the 4" 2x4 walls. I can't tell you how many drawings I have seen like that with either 4" or 6" walls. That is called laziness. I don't know how much this will help the course, but I hope it will illuminate the process that leads to some of the issues that make you pull your hair out in the field.
PS- Busted strings mean where the inside dimension string with multiple dimensions given don't add up to the same dimension as the outside overall dimension- its like 10 lbs. of 'stuff' in a 5 lbs. bag.
Good luck- yours is a needed class out there. For all parties involved. :^) Roy
Good to hear it from your perspective. I wish everyone who draws houses was as thoughtful.Your point about the general notes page is excellent. I would rather see a list of general notes anytime than random notes that might not be caught in the field.In my experience, diligence, professionalism, and good intent are key components in a design / build effort. The more cooperation and the less ambiguity, the better the project usually goes.Thanks.
Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success.
-Albert Schweitzer, philosopher, physician, musician, Nobel laureate
(1875-1965)
Catskinner, I'm not as impressed as you are. I'm not too fond of any architect/designer that admits to drawing plans that have interior dimensions that don't add up the to exterior. Those are the guys that cost me thousands every year. My question to them is: if you can't make the numbers work on paper, how do you expect me to make the numbers work in the field.
Getting those numbers to jive is ten times simpler in the office.
I don't have my love for firms that intentionall leave open strings. That's just pure laziness and it leads to structural issues (beams not stacking, plumbing fixtures over joists, etc).
blue
"I don't have my love for firms that intentionall leave open strings. That's just pure laziness and it leads to structural issues (beams not stacking, plumbing fixtures over joists, etc)."I think it playing with fire to "make up" where such plans are lacking. Customers expect you to fill in the gaps, having no idea that any errors could wreak havoc for them and have you in court for years.That's why I use the services of a structural engineer. We are presented plans all the time that people paid good money for, drawn by "architects" or designers (whatever they are) that have no basis in reality. These are always for builds that require breaking into existing, placing loads where no bearing exists, taking out bearing walls, etc. I tell people we have a certified engineer who works with us and we won't build without his plans. Period.Its not a matter of whether we can build or frame some idea or not, its a matter of whether we can afford to fight someone in court down the road.
"This job was a done deal, signed and all. he had the job and we actually agreed to price prior to the changes. All I asked was for him to take lookee and we'd discuss the changes."What happened? He just got mad and didn't want to discuss the changes and extra money for them? Or was there no extra work involed?I've bid jobs before and then the plans were changed and a lot more work was added but I look at the extar work without bitching about it and give a price and do it.Joe Carola
Edited 1/14/2006 12:47 pm ET by Framer
"What happened? He just got mad and didn't want to discuss the changes and extra money for them? Or was there no extra work involed?I've bid jobs before and then the plans were changed and a lot more work was added but I look at the extar work without bitching about it and give a price and do it.Joe Carola"I don't know what happened in his mind. I asked him to look at the plans and so he could understand how much more was involved than either he or i had originally intended. I don't think its fair to just slam someone some changes and say, "Here ya, go I've made up my mind and this is what you will build." I thought I was being fair, but some people have no concept of how to problem solve I guess.I told him we'd probably have to pick up parts that he was going to do in order to leave room for him picking up other areas that were added. So in short, he wouldn't have lost any money or time, I just needed him to understand the scope of changes and give me feedback.He was also angry about the delays, but weren't we as well? I have a lot more than my own schedule riding on it, so I felt that he could understand he wasn't alone in this frustration and I even offered him a small side job to do to make up for the delay.In the end because he couldn't be calm and flexible, he threw the baby out with the dishwater. I am used to changes and dealing with chaos that tries to slip in and mess up the best laid plans. It just part of the universe. I think there are some people who don't work well with change and all the better he parted from us when he did.
<<My question to them is: if you can't make the numbers work on paper, how do you expect me to make the numbers work in the field.Getting those numbers to jive is ten times simpler in the office.I don't have my love for firms that intentionall leave open strings. That's just pure laziness and it leads to structural issues (beams not stacking, plumbing fixtures over joists, etc).>>I agree, and I have had that experience too many times myself. It is sickening to lose money over someone else's carelesness, especially when they got paid for it.I hope what he was acknowledging was that drawings are contractual and that an unneccessary level of specificity could in some cases be a hindrance rather than a help. So as a courtesy when there may be some purely aesthetic adjustments the dimensions are left out to allow for that discretion.Of course a note to that effect would help.Maybe I read him wrong, but what I thought he was saying is that he was leaving some wiggle room in the design where bearing condition busts, plumbing conflicts, and the other joys of life would not be an issue.If that is the case, I'm OK with that. If it's sloppiness, it's inexcusable. If there is a dimensional bust anywhhere in the building, it's inexcusable.But I don't get the impression that's what this guy is doing. We'll have to see what he says for himself.
Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success.
-Albert Schweitzer, philosopher, physician, musician, Nobel laureate
(1875-1965)
From Catskinner: <<... It is sickening to lose money over someone else's carelesness, especially when they got paid for it.>> Agreed, it does nothing but piss off the contractor, the client, and degrade the architects' reputation
<<I hope what he was acknowledging was that drawings are contractual and that an unneccessary level of specificity could in some cases be a hindrance rather than a help. So as a courtesy when there may be some purely aesthetic adjustments the dimensions are left out to allow for that discretion.>> Bingo!!!! This is exactly what it is there for. Or rather, left out, in this case. It prevents the contractual nature of the drawings from being used to screw over someone because of an innocent mistake as well.
<<Of course a note to that effect would help.>> Good point. It often times comes out in discussion with my contractors, but a note would clarify for everyone. Of course, in this day and age, you have to run notes like that by your lawyer. Sad we have come to stuff like that.
<<Maybe I read him wrong, but what I thought he was saying is that he was leaving some wiggle room in the design where bearing condition busts, plumbing conflicts, and the other joys of life would not be an issue.>> This is the idea. Also, which I didn't elaborate on, sizes of things change. Sometimes a manufacturer changes the depth of their plumbing flanges for wall hung toilets and doesn't document it. Engineered steel trusses, etc. are things that size wise are never clear until they are built, and then often we don't know exactly (to the 1/8") what the dimensions are until they show up on site. Have to plan for some wiggle room. Sometimes, there are things an architect can't find the exact dimensions for, despite websites, calls to the manufacturers, local supply houses, and calls to contractors that may or may not use the product. After a certain point, you have to leave a space for it and move on, or you end up chasing your tail and spending all of a minimal fee. Not the prefered solution, but the truth.
<<...If it's sloppiness, it's inexcusable. If there is a dimensional bust anywhhere in the building, it's inexcusable.>> Correct, which is why every set of plans, needs someone else to look them over and catch those mistakes. However, I have yet to work on a perfect job, nor have I met another architect, engineer, contractor or educated client, that is honest with themselves, that has either. It is unfortunate, but true, and mistakes are made by everyone. Better to plan for it.
<<But I don't get the impression that's what this guy is doing. We'll have to see what he says for himself.>> Thanks for the vote of confidence and taking the time to pull out the meaning better than I said it myself. You hit the nail on the head about what makes a good design/build project- cooperation and coordination between the designers, the builder/contractor, and the client. Those are my favorite projects hands down. I'd much rather get a phone call from a super in the middle of the job asking what we were looking for here, and what about doing it this way instead? than a bunch of CYA RFI's that we then churn out a bunch of CYA responses to. That takes all the fun out getting a building built, on all three sides.
I've enjoyed the conversation, it is stuff like this that makes FHB and Breaktime fun and educational. Take care, Roy
<<I've enjoyed the conversation, it is stuff like this that makes FHB and Breaktime fun and educational. >>Likewise. This place is amazing.I wish more designers and architects thought like you.Best wishes.A king can stand people fighting but he can't last long if people start
thinking. -Will Rogers, humorist (1879-1935)
Blueeyeddevil, please re-read my post. I don't say that I mess up the interior dimensions, I said that I am frustrated by those that do. It causes a lot of problems- change orders, structural issues, bad reputations, and costs, yes, to include yours. I would appreciate it if you would read the below carefully, as it is going to be long, and I hope will help clarify some of the issues.
Having read your posts for a while now, I realize that you don't have much love for open strings and designers that use them. People have different opinions, and there is always more than one way to do things, as already discussed about drawing styles. However, all our strings at my previous firm were supposed to be laid out so that every wall is located, etc. But instead of running a continuous string all the way across on the interior dimensions (exteriors always had overall dimensions), locking in every single element with no margin for issues, a certain non-critical, non-loadbearing dimension was left out intentionally. This is not done to help the architect, the engineer, or the building owner, but to help the contractor. "Why?" you may ask? It just means you, the contractor/framer has to do math when the arch. could simply snap a line in AutoCAD in 5 sec. and ensure it is accurate to the gnat's a##! And therein lies the problem.
With CAD programs, it is easy to dimension to the nearest 1/64" or less. The problem is, what are you dimensioning to? A line with no inherent thickness, and no errors in layout. How many building materials have no thickness? How many building layouts have no errors in layout to the nearest 1/64" (or 1/128", or whatever). If I come out onto a job site and measure a 2x4 wall with 1/2" GWB, is it going to be exactly 4-1/2" thickness? It will be close, but it won't be exact. How inexact? 1/64", 1/32", 1/8", 1/4"? Now, across a 50' or 100'+ span, you start to add up. You can probably see where I am going by now with this. :^) I typically design for steel studs which are more consistent dimensionally, but how many bundles of wood studs do you get from the yard that look like what you would have culled out 20 years ago? How dimensionally accurate are they?
I am sure you are competent at what you do, and have little doubt that you can lay out a building better than I could with fewer mistakes or fat pencil marks. I'm also sure that if I measured every dimension in one of your houses I would find some that didn't correspond to what was on my drawing. The intent of the open string is to allow this to happen, and there not to be any problems caused by it. It is also very helpful with regard to changes- the homeowner wants a 3" wider cabinet than was planned for 8 months ago? Here is the place to soak up that dimension. The plumber needs a 2" wider wall for the waste stack because he lays it out differently than the arch/ME planned for? Here is the place for it. There are always problems on every project, no matter how well designed and how well run. Here we are planning for that, giving an allowance, so that when that issues comes up, and it will, there is a place to take care of it, hopefully.
To sum up- all the critical items like columns, beams, structural framing, plumbing stacks, HVAC chases, window and door rough openings, and overall dimensions should be and are given. Everything else should be able to be located/calculated by basic carpenter math. But if a dimension in the middle isn't critical, think about leaving that guy in the field some wiggle room. And no, it isn't laziness to do it this way. It takes less than 5 seconds to continue a string of dimensions. It takes a lot longer to pick a non-critical one that can slide and leave it out. There is a difference.
Hope that helps clarify some issues. If not, then we can agree to disagree. Roy
Good response. That's what I thought.
A king can stand people fighting but he can't last long if people start
thinking. -Will Rogers, humorist (1879-1935)
S2, I read your response and you haven't made one point that would even begin to change my mind.
The fact remains that the cad program can instantly create a dimension string and it takes only one second. When you leave out that dimension, it sometimes takes me 5 minutes, five seconds or as much as five hours! Yes five hours, to figure out what that dimension will be. There is just no excuse for leaving a roof dimension out!
All your talk is nothing more than rationalization.
For gawds sake, JUST PUT THE ENTIRE DIMENSION STRING in and quit trying to overthink it. If something isn't going to work out, were going to have to deal with it anyways, so you might as well tell us what the dimension was SUPPOSED to be so we can go about our business figuring out why it isn't right.
And please don't worry if you have to put in a dimension that is 1/64" of an inch. We're pretty good at reading tapes and I'm sure we'll be able to figure out where that is on the tape.
I have worked on one residential floor plan that showed dimensioning to some ridiculous 1/32" or something and guess what: it was very easy to frame! The layout went perfect!
Your argument that walls aren't exactly 4 1/2 doesnt faze me a bit. In most cases, the walls of a house/building are dictated by the offset walls of the foundation, not your dimensioning. Each segment of the house restarts the accumulating error factor and in the end, it really doesn't matter what the dimension say, but it's nice to know what they are SUPPOSED to be because the truss designers build the trusses to the THEORETICAL dimensions. The carpenters on the job have enough on their hands balancing the foundation with the trusses. They don't also have to hope the truss desingers closed the "open string" using their same logic.
I've been victimized by open strings in some very substantial ways. I see them as nothing more than a substandard set of plans and I personally wouldn't pay any architect/designer anything until they finished the plans with all dimension strings closed. If they tried to give me their double talk about "open strings make sense, blah, blah, blah..." I'd probably get very angry and forget all my Dale Carnegie training. I think the many thousands of dollars that have been pissed away would boil through my thick skull and erupt like Mt Vesuvius.
Just do your job and quit all the freakin' double talk.
Yes, we don't agree.
blue
I am sure you are competent at what you do, and have little doubt that you can lay out a building better than I could with fewer mistakes or fat pencil marks. I'm also sure that if I measured every dimension in one of your houses I would find some that didn't correspond to what was on my drawing. The intent of the open string is to allow this to happen, and there not to be any problems caused by it. It is also very helpful with regard to changes- the homeowner wants a 3" wider cabinet than was planned for 8 months ago? Here is the place to soak up that dimension. The plumber needs a 2" wider wall for the waste stack because he lays it out differently than the arch/ME planned for? Here is the place for it. There are always problems on every project, no matter how well designed and how well run. Here we are planning for that, giving an allowance, so that when that issues comes up, and it will, there is a place to take care of it, hopefully
This is such baloney I couldn't leave it go at my last post!
I'm fired up now!
If a freakin' plumber needs a wall 2" wider, the room that it encroaches into will be 2" smaller. It's that simple. How does an open dimension string on the other side of the house help me with that?
If a homeowner wants a 3" wider cabinet, then he's gotta take three inches out of something. It doen't change the facts that a dimension should be theoretically something.
I guess I'm so angry about this because I've literally lost thousands of needless dollars over the years because everything comes to a halt when an open string is happened upon during the layout process. I just want to throttle any of the incompetent or "clever" architects that do this. I suffered through 3 jobs last year and am still currently fighting with one builder for money because of excessive time spent filling in these "clever" open strings. It causes a ton of problems. In this particular case, the door wouldn't fit going into a bonus room over a garage and we ended up having to redesign one quarter of the upstairs. I had to temp frame stuff just go get the homeowners approval and in the end we DIDN'T GET PAID FOR OUR TIME!
If you want to help out the carpenters, don't do them any favors: just fill in the strings!
blue
S2,
I really appreciate the thought and consideration for others that makes you leave out that one uncritical dim string.
But it doesn't work in the field. An intentional error just adds to the total number of errors that the contractor must discover and correct.
As for RFI's being "just" CYA's, have you ever read the AIA contract from the POV of the Contractor. If I EVER work under an AIA contract, the first order of business will be to put a very experienced lawyer on full time staff. The next order will be to build him a fully equipped office on the job site and staff it with a professional estimator and an auditor accountant.
SamT
<<As for RFI's being "just" CYA's, have you ever read the AIA contract from the POV of the Contractor. If I EVER work under an AIA contract, the first order of business will be to put a very experienced lawyer on full time staff. The next order will be to build him a fully equipped office on the job site and staff it with a professional estimator and an auditor accountant.>>Ain't that a kick. I don't sign AIA contracts, period. And if I see any cut and paste language in someone else's contract that looks like it came from AIA I ask them to strike it out.That AIA language looks about as unfair as anything could be and still be legal.A king can stand people fighting but he can't last long if people start
thinking. -Will Rogers, humorist (1879-1935)
CatSkinner,
According to the AIA contract, the contractor is a dirty, low down, lying, thieving, fly-by-night, snake-in-the-grass hack, who should be never allowed to pick up a tape and pencil at the same time.
According to the AIA the contractor is responsible for ALL errors, including the Architects, the owners, and Gods.
According to the AIA the Contractor must perform all work directed to him by the owner or the architect. Period. sometime after the additional work is completed, the architect will tell the contractor how much he will reduce the final bill. If he thinks about it, and got laid last night, and won the lottery.
According to the AIA, the architect owns all the contractors books and papers.
According to the AIA the contractor will indemnify and hold the architect harmless from everything the architect does.
Gee, I wonder why contractors have so much antipathy towards architects as construction managers?
SamT
<<Gee, I wonder why contractors have so much antipathy towards architects as construction managers?>>Seriously. I can't believe anyone signs those contracts.That and the "pay when paid" clauses. Those are amazing to me. I've heard that they aren't even legal in some states now.I have worked as a GC and as a sub, so I have no patience for that BS from any perspective. As a sub I needed work real bad once and agreed to that and it wasn't good.As I see it, if you do the work for me, you get paid. If I do the work for you, I get paid. The deal is between you and me, not you, me, and some third party I never met.Any GC who is doing the "pay when paid" is either insolvent, a really bad manager, dishonest, or a little bit of each.As A GC, I told my subs to bill me on the 25th, get paid no later than the 15th. My deal with the homeowner was I bill you before the 30th, I get paid by the 10th. That wasn't hard to do, and I almost always paid my subs early.<<According to the AIA the contractor will indemnify and hold the architect harmless from everything the architect does.>>I've seen versions of that one that if anyone brings any legal action for any reason that in any way involves me, the work I've done, or if I'm even on the project at the time, then the indemnify clause applies.No way. I have to think that anyone who would sign such a thing has never looked that word up in the dictionary.I think we just struck a nerce with the AIA contracts. <G>A king can stand people fighting but he can't last long if people start
thinking. -Will Rogers, humorist (1879-1935)
I agree SamT. The last time I considered using and AIA contract was in the early eighties. I didn't know squat about building but I didn't like what I was reading.
blue
Obviously this struck a chord with some people. Blue's points about restarting the dimensions at various points are true, and do tend to take out some of the cumulative effect I was discussing. Sorry it got some peoples' shorts in a bunch. However, these aren't intentional errors. Ever. Overall dimensions are given, all exterior dimensions are given, to include those on the roof plan. An entire dimension string is given in the interior, both directions, minus one in the north-south direction and one in the east-west direction. Easy to find the "missing/undocumented" dimension, but your points are noted and appreciated.
I am glad to get your input from a field perspective, and I can understand where you are coming from. I also made sure that I worked in construction before and during college, and now spend as much time in the field as possible, as it is easy to draw something impossible to build, unless you understand how things go together. That doesn't mean I am the expert- that is the guy that does it every day- but it does give me the understanding of how things go together. I have had this same conversation before with several of my superintendents, and received the opposite reaction from what I received here.
RFI's are legally required in most design/bid/build contracts where the owner, contractor, and designers are separated in a legal fashion. They have to be there, but it doesn't mean I like the relationship it puts you in, as it is more adversarial. From your comment about lawyers and accountants it looks like we agree on that point for sure ;^). That is why I like the design/build process better that Catskinner and I were talking about, as it puts the designers and builders on the same team. It doesn't solve all of the problems, but it makes it a lot easier to solve them. And yes, I have read the AIA contracts from a contractor's perspective, as the last company I worked for and the one I am currently employed by are both commercial contractors, where I work both as a design manager and as a construction manager. My last company used both AIA and AGC contract forms, depending on the task. I thought the last iteration of the AIA contracts were supposed to be written with AGC input, but I can't find anything on the websites referring to that. I will go back to my superintendents and ask them question again. I'm curious if I get a new answer. I certainly got one here. Until then, I stand by my work. Back to it for now. R
S2
"However, these aren't intentional errors. Ever. Overall dimensions are given, all exterior dimensions are given, to include those on the roof plan. An entire dimension string is given in the interior, both directions, minus one in the north-south direction and one in the east-west direction. Easy to find the "missing/undocumented" dimension. . . this same conversation before with several of my superintendents. . .
the [company] I am currently employed by [is a] commercial contractor, where I work both as a design manager and as a construction manager."
In that case, all in-house, I can see where it would work, because everybody is on the same page. They are "easy to find" because that is the expected custom in your company.
Send those prints outside where it is NOT expected and NOT the custom and they become "just another error." BTW, in the AIA world "blueprint error" means "another profit center" to many contractors.
SamT
Getting ready for my third class tomorrow and I reviewed this thread.
I want to thank everyone who posted with their suggestions and encouragement.
I really understand where blue is coming from...and I hope I can make the lives of these students a little easier with the wisdom that comes from experience...mine included.
I cut and pasted several highlights that I will pass on to the apprentices...
"And anyone who ignores that advice does so at their own peril. Typically blueprints are incorporated by reference into the contract, so all of those little notes then constitute a contractual obligation.<!----><!----><!---->
I've found some apparently extraneous notes casually slapped into a drawing that would have sunk my boat if I hadn't seen it. I bet we all have.<!----><!---->
My apprenticeship school instructor told me to read every word, no matter what if it takes a long time, sit there until you understand it.<!----><!---->
His advice was to use a highliter marker and mark everything as you go on the bid set so you know you didn't miss anything.<!----><!---->
I took his advice, and I use three colors, green for "I understand, this makes sense", yellow for "I'd better ask the architect or engineer for clarification because something doesn't add up here" and red for "What the f%^$ was this the first day with the new crack pipe this cannot exist in 3 dimensions".<!----><!---->
which is why the contracts get written with lots of waffle words like "generally accurate", etc.
<!----> <!---->
PS- Busted strings mean where the inside dimension string with multiple dimensions given don't add up to the same dimension as the outside overall dimension- its like 10 lbs. of 'stuff' in a 5 lbs. bag.<!----><!---->
all the dimensions were to face of stud/structure/steel unless otherwise noted (this note was on the general notes on the cover sheet, and typically on each page), and two, would often times leave open strings on the interior dimensions purposely
I'm not too fond of any architect/designer that admits to drawing plans that have interior dimensions that don't add up the to exterior. Those are the guys that cost me thousands every year. My question to them is: if you can't make the numbers work on paper, how do you expect me to make the numbers work in the field. <!----><!---->
Getting those numbers to jive is ten times simpler in the office.<!----><!---->
I don't have my love for firms that intentionall leave open strings. That's just pure laziness and it leads to structural issues (beams not stacking, plumbing fixtures over joists, etc).<!----><!---->
I have seen a book somewhere, JLC or otherwise, that has 50 or so examples of real world problems that have occurred on projects..Kind of a learn from other peoples mistakes. This book may also help.<!----><!---->
The fact remains that the cad program can instantly create a dimension string and it takes only one second. When you leave out that dimension, it sometimes takes me 5 minutes, five seconds or as much as five hours! Yes five hours, to figure out what that dimension will be. There is just no excuse for leaving a roof dimension out! <!----><!---->
In most cases, the walls of a house/building are dictated by the offset walls of the foundation, not your dimensioning. Each segment of the house restarts the accumulating error factor and in the end, it really doesn't matter what the dimension say, but it's nice to know what they are SUPPOSED to be because the truss designers build the trusses to the THEORETICAL dimensions. The carpenters on the job have enough on their hands balancing the foundation with the trusses. They don't also have to hope the truss desingers closed the "open string" using their same logic. Height floor plan is cut??
<!----> <!---->
guess I'm so angry about this because I've literally lost thousands of needless dollars over the years because everything comes to a halt when an open string is happened upon during the layout process. I just want to throttle any of the incompetent or "clever" architects that do this. I suffered through 3 jobs last year and am still currently fighting with one builder for money because of excessive time spent filling in these "clever" open strings. It causes a ton of problems. In this particular case, the door wouldn't fit going into a bonus room over a garage and we ended up having to redesign one quarter of the upstairs. I had to temp frame stuff just go get the homeowners approval and in the end we DIDN'T GET PAID FOR OUR TIME!
<!----> <!---->
<!---->and <!---->
it is easy to draw something impossible to build, unless you understand how things go
together"
Thanks for all of this...real world...stuff!
hi ho silver
bump into morning-
"I love doing what I do because you have to think through how guys in the field would put it together and then work backwards from that."That's the whole reason why an Architect should apprentice in the field. While you go to school to become an Architect they should have you work on a Framing crew on the weekends or have mandatory hours in the field so you will know how it's put together. I framed a house when I was 22 and the plans called for 5 different pitches on it and the Architect specked out the same fascia and soffit lines and same WALL HEIGHTS with one room being a cathedral ceiling. I called him and told him that I can get everything to line up but I had to adjust the plate heights or add blocks in between the ceiling joists because the higher pitched rafters had to be raised so that the fascias and soffits would all meet.He couldn’t understand a word I was saying and was a smart #### over the phone and then I told him to come to the sight to see what I was talking about.When he got there I had 5 different small rafters with the exact same size overhangs and same size birdsmouths and sat them on a 2x4 plate and showed him how all 5 different pitches traveled a a different height and then with the higher pitches I stuck the right amount of blocks under the seatcuts and raised them up so that all the fascia lines matched. That showed him what the differences in the plate heights had to be.After 5 minutes in the field with me he understood exactly what I was talking about.Joe Carola
>>That's the whole reason why an Architect should apprentice in the field. While you go to school to become an Architect they should have you work on a Framing crew on the weekends or have mandatory hours in the field so you will know how it's put together.Well said Joe. When I went to arch. school I enouraged fellow students to do just that, or I would hire them myself for summer and/or weekend work. I apprenticed and worked as a carpenter for several years before going to school which was most beneficial.
I framed a house when I was 22 and the plans called for 5 different pitches on it and the Architect specked out the same fascia and soffit lines and same WALL HEIGHTS with one room being a cathedral ceiling
Joe, nothing that you have specced out above would prevent anyone from executing that archtects plan. Even if you spec the overhangs to have the same projection, I still could execute that plan.
When he got there I had 5 different small rafters with the exact same size overhangs and same size birdsmouths and sat them on a 2x4 plate and showed him how all 5 different pitches traveled a a different height and then with the higher pitches I stuck the right amount of blocks under the seatcuts and raised them up so that all the fascia lines matched. That showed him what the differences in the plate heights had to be.
It appears that you created the "problem" when you decided that you also had to have the SAME SIZE BIRDMOUTH. If you were more flexible in your thinking, you'd easily be able to get that job done without a call to the architect.
While you go to school to become an Architect they should have you work on a Framing crew on the weekends or have mandatory hours in the field so you will know how it's put together.
That's no guarantee that an architect will be decent. I had a guy work full time for me for two seasons while he attended arch school. He was one of the worst college kids that ever worked for me and now he's the worst architect that I've ever executed a plan for. I think I see a pattern. I'm just glad that he's not my eye surgeon.
blue
"Joe, nothing that you have specced out above would prevent anyone from executing that archtects plan. Even if you spec the overhangs to have the same projection, I still could execute that plan."Blue,I was 22 at the time framing a house with 5 different pitches and cathedral ceilings and the plans called for all the same plate heights, same overhangs and fascia lines. I did execute it. It just wasn't the way he showed it in all his cross sections. So at 22 I was smart enough to call him and let him know and he couldn't understand what I was saying. So I told him to come down and see."It appears that you created the "problem" when you decided that you also had to have the SAME SIZE BIRDMOUTH. If you were more flexible in your thinking, you'd easily be able to get that job done without a call to the architect."I know you can adjust birdsmouths but sometimes you can't take too much out of a birdsmouth and sometimes you have a difference between two pitches where you have to sit the higher pitched rafters on top of a ceiling joist. I just cut everything the same to make him realize the reasons why you have to make adjustments like this when you call for 5 different pitches. I adjust birdsmouths all the time to allow a full 2x4 thickness instead of a 2x4 with 1/2" plywood or something else.You also have to be careful with cathedral ceilings with different pitches and wall heights because the sheetrock at the bottom has to line up. So when your valley or hip lines up off the corner it doesn’t look right inside. So after the framing is done we have to go back and fir out the bottom of the rafters and create a new line to the inside corner of the room so that everything lines up nice for a finished product.I said, "While you go to school to become an Architect they should have you work on a Framing crew on the weekends or have mandatory hours in the field so you will know how it's put together."You said, "That's no guarantee that an architect will be decent."I never said there was a guarantee on that but at least they would have an idea about what it's like when things are put together on the field. It really makes sense if you frame on the field and then try and draw a set of plans to help you see how things can work or not work. I’m sure you get plans that don't work and you pick them up immediately. So if someone were to ask you to draw a set of plans you would know exactly what to do.Joe Carola
It sounds like it could be an interesting class.
I've had the pleasure to work with a couple of bright carpenters who were in a college construction program. Lots of good stuff and lots of information that they didn't know how to relate to the real world, so I'm also a big fan of doing what you can to keep it "applied" rather than simply a regurgitation of drafting rules and such.
As others have said, a significant advantage of knowing how to read plans well is to identify problem areas and plan around them. It's also very interesting how the various users of plans interpret them. A framer evaluates plans for structural issues and obvious conflicts with the other trades. Plumbers only see joists to cut. Electricians read plans to come up with a number of parts to order since wires go anywhere easily. The homeowner looks at plans and imagines how the various areas will be used by their family. The architect interprets blueprints in terms of form and function. The interior designer is imagining how to pull off a cohesive "feel" in the house based on the organization of the home's parts and input from the owner.
Have fun with that class.
Don