carpentry questionnaire – should be fun
I developed this questionnaire to cut down on my time interviewing unqualified people. I’m giving the same questions to all levels, with the instruction fo answers as many as possible. What do you all think? Is it fair?
Would it be insulting for a good man?
Typically crosscut blades are used on a table saw? True or False
What size rough opening does a 2’6″ door require? A. 28″ B.
30″ C. 32″ D. 34″
A header for a 60″ rough opening is how big? A 60″ B 66″ C.
72″ D. 75″
Which of the following moulding would be coped typically? A. base
cap B. chair rail C. rake mould D. door casing E. crown
moulding
On a typical hip roof with a 6/12 pitch, what is the plumb cut of the
hip rafter. A. 6/12 B, 30 degrees C, 12/12 D. 6/17
On a typical 16″ stud wall layout how much distance is between the
first and second studs. A 14-1/2″ B 16″ C 13-3/4″ D
17-1/2″
Oriented Strand Board OSB has a strength Axis? True or False
What is the actual size of a 2X4, a 2X6, a 2×8, a 2X10, a 2X12?
What does it mean to crown lumber? A. to cut each piece to exactly
the same length B. to take out all of the crooked boards so only the
best remain C. to inspect upon delivery to insure that the batch
does not have to many bad boards D to mark each piece so that its
naturally occurring arc is marked and easily easily determined
On a stair case with a total rise of 97.5” what is the individual
riser height?
Explain a situation where a double top plate is needed?
Explain an example where a double top plate is not needed?
We are going to lay out an apartment in a rectangular space. What are
the best step to take to insure a square layout?
What is 3,4,5 and how does it relate to your job?
For a 6’8” door panel how high should the header be from the subfloor?
Explain you reasoning?
A bar top height is typically how high from the finish floor to the top
of the finish bar.
Give an example of how to anchor a knee wall in a stick built house?
How about in a situation where the floor is a concrete slab?
Explain the process of cutting crown moulding?
If you were asked to delegate the task of installing a double entry
door of solid mahogany what would be the process you would give as
instruction.
Is there a typical tread length in stair building? If so when if ever
would the tread length stray from standard?
Explain the process of laying out and building a staircase that would
have hardwood treads and a full ballustrade? Give as much detail as
you can.
How would one use a hypotenuse in stair building?
Replies
it might be intimidating to a good man who is not particularly literate - your language needs a little tweaking also -
ex: A header for a 60" rough opening is how big? - should be maybe 'is made from a 2X?' - otherwise I might just say '60" ' and be correct...
If you were asked to delegate the task of installing a double entry door of solid mahogany what would be the process you would give as instruction. - tho technically correct, the question is unnecessarily convoluted - 'list the major steps of installing a double entry door.' - or something more on that order...
really pretty good tho - if there was someway to make it seem less 'threatening'... I'll think about that.. -
If you were asked to delegate the task of installing a double entry door of solid mahogany what would be the process you would give as instruction
My 1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
language in tests, even in informal ones like this, is really important....really important. And a fair multiple choice question is very hard to design....it's common for a team of several people to take hours per question (and I've done that when training as an instructor....if I recall correctly, you're an instructor also?), and even then, it's hard to take any possible misinterpretation out of it. I know I go back to tests I've written and given to students, and ask myself what the hell was I thinking?
That said, I think some of the questions are ambiguous, starting with the tablesaw question......depends what job you are doing. The bar top question.....I'm guessing 42" is what you're looking for there, but I've never seen that standard held to, and I've seen or built bars from 40-50". That's a couple off the top of my head.
I also think that would be quite a long test to write (and agree it would be intimidatiing to a lot of good people), and a long test to correct.
I do think you're doing the right thing in running the questions by other people before you give it to anyone.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
Well said.
I lean towards including just few multiple choice questions.
Then ask the applicant to draw a quick free-hand sketch of something like a rough opening for a door or window. Labeling the parts would be a bonus. This should give you an idea how well he/she can communicate ideas as well as his/her understanding of the process.
I don't get the one about the table saw. You use a crosscut blade when you're crosscutting, and a rip blade when you're ripping. So why is that one true or false?
Seems to me a header for a 60" rough opening should be 63", but that's not even an option.
or it can be 66" both answers are right...
now what do we do if we are using a combination blade???Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
You would have to cut on the diagonal with a combination blade, wouldn't you? <G>
that's why the combo feature...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
As a potential employee, I'd be concerned that you (the employer) might believe there were only one correct answer to each of the questions.
I consider myself a "good man"....but it might make me shy away.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
How about some practical "tests", like cutting an 8' length of 2x4 into 4 equal 2' lengths without a tape or square. You can even learn something about one's ability by watching them sweep a floor.
I remember when I got my first carpentry job, the boss showed me a blueprint of a relocated window and asked me to go through the steps on how I would do it.
Ok, you got me here.
How is this possible? Cut a 2x4 x 8 into four 2' equal pieces? No tape, no ruler? Even if you could explain how to do this, why would you ask a person to know how to do this. If I caught a cut crew with a saw and no tape we'd be having a little talk.
Ask the person to cut four boards of lumber from a pile of 2x4 x 12's
one at 7'-9", one at 1'-6", two at 4' and one at 6', then see how many boards they used, and how accurately they are cut.
Then give them the plans to turn that wood into something i.e. lay out and build a mock up of an RSO and a laminated lintle or beam.
You have looked at their math skills, their reading ability, their use of materials, their lay-out, their tool skills, their accuracy, their ability to read a plan, to take direction, and with the beam, attention to detail...knots, even surface, nailing patterns, thickness etc.
IF they pass this, then I'd give them a written test. But practical first...I can teach the rest. But no basic skills, or bad tool habits are hard to deal with.
Glen from Canada
Given an 8' hunk of lumber, how can you get 4 pieces each 2' long? Anybody got a kerfless saw?
This is from a (allegedly) humble DIYer.
Thank goodness I'm not the only one who noticed the same problem...I started thinking maybe it was time to pack it in!
Glen in Canada
Never noticed that glitch. Good catch.
I'm in the camp that you don't cut anything 2' long without tape in hand.
Mark something in place, fine, cut it at the mark. Want it 2', get a tape.
Anyways, I'm always game for a puzzle, assuming a magic saw, anyone know how do you do this?
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
"I'm in the camp that you don't cut anything 2' long without tape in hand."
I'm in the camp with the chop saw with the stop and the rulers on the extended guides. I call myself spoiled :-) [still use a tape with the worm drive though...].
>>"I call myself spoiled
You are spoiled. ;-)
The only tool of my own I can think of that has a length scale is the table saw, but I am so accustomed to seeing all the length scales being off on every older tool I've ever used, I never even bothered to set it up. Just don't use the length scales as a matter of longstanding habit. Maybe I should treat myself and actually set it up so it's accurate. ;-)
The angle scales, different. I'd be up shid's creek without that on the mitre saw. ;-)
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
"Given an 8' hunk of lumber, how can you get 4 pieces each 2' long?"Board stretcher.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Glen,This started as a skill test between carpenters on a jobsite in Canada. Dimensional lumber was often a little longer than the nominal length, so yes you could theoretically get 4x24" + 3x1/8"(saw kerf)out of it, but the point was to get 4 equal pieces. The object was (I would have thought fairly obviously) to gauge one's eye for both measurement and square, a potential sign of one's ability. TGNY formerly from Canadaedit: just measured a couple of 2x4x8, lengths vary from 96 1/4" to 96 3/4"
Edited 4/25/2006 7:28 pm ET by TGNY
Were happy to get 96 1/8" here, and a square end cut is like a four leaf clover these days!
My favourite, how do you check if a level is reading accurately.
Glen in Canada
Custom build, heritage restoration, heritage millwork.
Uhh, I dunno, maybe turn it around and see that both sides read the same.
To test the accuracy of a level put one atop another and place them both on the same surface. They should read the same. If not...at least one of them is off, now it's time for a third level to sort out which is reading inaccurately.
Now how about all you master carpenters come up here and work out a few conversions to metric! 38 x 89 lumber or 400mm o.c., what a way to start the day with plans all in metric!
Best hard maple, white pine, eastern white cedar, red oak, beech, walnut, cherry, white oak...Leeds & Grenville Counties, Ontario, Canada, eh!
Question for the stick pusher, what does C&O mean when ordering dried lumber.
Glen from Canada
Custom build, heritage restoration, heritage millwork.
>>Now how about all you master carpenters come up here and work out a few conversions to metric! 38 x 89 lumber or 400mm o.c., what a way to start the day with plans all in metric!Been there, done that, that's why I fled south. Ottawa-Carleton county.
Really, unless it's government work, everything is still imperial, but every now and again...out comes the conversion chart!
Glen in CanadaCustom build, heritage restoration, heritage millwork.
Ottawa is the nation's capital, so yes, there tends to be a little bit of government work.
I worked in Finland for awhile and liked working in the metric system. In many ways it is much easier. I can remember well when Canada was using the British system.Edited 4/26/2006 5:16 pm by gb93433
Edited 4/26/2006 5:17 pm by gb93433
I wouldn't mind so much if they could make a 38mm x 89mm stud = 50mm x 100mm stud. Oh, and a 10 hour day, 10 day week, 10 month year, etc.
I don't what a stick-pusher is, or who you mean....but I don't know what C&O means: never seen it, heard of it, and it doesn't appear in any standard lumber industry list of abbreviations. So what is it?
I'm from the Gatineaus, but my dad moved south of Ottawa to the Edwards area a few years ago, and I was just back there a couple of weeks ago....I've rambled around Leeds-Grenville a little bit in my youth. Brockville and area anyway.
As far as hard maple goes....we do a big business here selling hardwood flooring to Europe, and especially Germany. Ask a German wood broker where the best hard maple comes from, he'll probably tell you the seven eastern counties of Nova Scotia....four on Cape Breton, three on the eastern mainland. Not necessarily the biggest trees, but something about the conditions makes the lumber exceptional. One of the company guys I work with has a story about filling out a container with maple from Vermont (in his case, but you also hear Pennsylvania, Ontario or Quebec, you hear similar stories around a lot), and having the Germans kick out the 'filler' stuff, with a strict warning not to try that again. Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
stick pusher = cabinet maker
C&O = cuts and outs, a great way to get shorter pieces at a higher grade. Basically the mill removes the knots, whirls etc from boards, leaving clear lumber. Lengths are then non standard i.e. 12"-72" usually. Depending on a project, these lengths are just fine, and the price is lower. Obviously you can do the same yourself by buying lower grades and C&O yourself, but this takes time...but doesn't everything.
The Cape is awesome. I've hiked the highlands, and yes, like the geogaphy, the culture, and the food, their lumber is great too.
So let me get this straight, not only are the Germans buying all of your best land for developement, but they're taking your superior lumber too? Crafty Germans, they're no dumbmies.
I remember when the mines closed, you couldn't give land away...another missed opportunity.
Glen from CanadaCustom build, heritage restoration, heritage millwork.
Thanks....honestly never seen that abbreviation.
Yep, Cape Breton is an interesting place, and the Germans have definitely discovered it. The Americans too. I have a friend moving here in a month, and I'm scouting real estate for him when I can.....prices are definitely going up.
Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
When I worked for a very large hardwood lumber compnay we would take one and two common lumber and rip it and then cut around the knots. After that we would produce S4S material for cabinetmakers by running it through a molder and sold it in 100' lots. Cabinetmakers could not afford to buy the lumber and cut it themselves for the price we charged.
Hey Cocky Boy!,
Set your level down. Look @ the bubble. Flip it around. Look @ the bubble again. It should read the same. DUH!
TRIGGER
Hey trigger happy,
1. Levels only have one reading edge, you don't just flip a level, ever.
2. Assuming you do flip the level and they are different....that could just as easily indicate using the non ground edge as it being a level out of whack...you'd be tossing a perfectly good level.
Don't call us, we'll call you, LOL,
Glen in CanadaCustom build, heritage restoration, heritage millwork.
He did say flip it around, not over, so he would still have it on the same edge. Tom
Douglasville, GA
Uhm...2 things
1. Can't be sure the level is reading from the same place as the first reading.
2. Unless the vial or level was noticebly (therefore no need to check) warped I would be suprised if your memory would notice a difference in the bubble location from each reading. Especially on a 2' or 4' lvl.
No, still sticking with my method...but interesting thought.
Glen in Canada
Custom build, heritage restoration, heritage millwork.
Not sure where you learned how to use a level, but I learned (in Canada) that the vial should read the same no matter which orientation the level is in. Assuming ofcourse the frame is bent or distorted.This from the Stabila website:
STABILA levels are consistent and accurate in the “vial up” or “vial down” positions.http://stabila.com/main.taf?p=4
You noitice this is the new and improved Stabila, so it didn't always work that way. What I do is use a level that I already know is good, set and shim it level and then compare the others to it. As long as you center the bubble you can eyeball if you have even space on each side.If out in the field with only one level you set it plumb/level, make marka at both ends and spin it around set it on the marks. If it still measures plumb/level you are good to go. If not the amount of error is half what you see. You can mount it to a reasonably straight stick and do this, and shim the level on the stick until it reads the same both ways and then even if the stick is a little off and the level is a little off, the combination will be accurate.
This from the Stabila website:
STABILA levels are consistent and accurate in the “vial up” or “vial down” positions.While they may be consistent, the degree of accuracy is not the same up or down...at least that's what's printed on all five of my Stabilas...Here's my door level flipped vertically end for end...weird, huh? I need a dump truck, baby, to unload my head
Close enough from my house :~)Good photos BTW
I'm sure you get good results with your method but the other method works just fine. If your eyes are good enough to read the bubble and tell when something is level, then they are good enough to tell if it reads the same when turned around.
Needing 2-3 levels to tell if one is accurate seems pretty silly when the other method works just fine. Tom
Douglasville, GA
HELLO GLEN!
This is carp 101
You check a level by flipping it end for end!
No error
The way you do it would end up throwing out a perfectly good level because you checked it with two bad ones.
If you did it the right way you would, first of all, not need another level and even if you did you would check the second level by swapping ends to know it was reading accurately.
I think you may want to change your signature line -
Crooked build, hitormiss restoration, close enough millwork ---;)Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
easy on the newfie. They don't even know when to stop fishing...oh yeah when all the fish is GONE"I hate quotations. Tell me what you know" Ralph Waldo Emerson
Too each their own.
Stand by my method, I would expect the same from others.
Turning the level thing..bush leaque...I'll leave that to the, "Come on boys it aint a piano" crowd. The pros know the way, the rest nail and pray! LOL
Glen in Canada
ps, its the internationals that killed the fisheries...but don't let the facts get in the way of your arguement.Custom build, heritage restoration, heritage millwork.
Turning the level thing..bush leaque...
I use the "flip method" and I think anybody that uses three levels to do what I can do with one is a little thick in the head.
But you go on believing that your way is the only way.
Doug
Edited 5/3/2006 11:52 pm ET by DougU
Turning the level isn't bush, it's accurate. If you use screws on a work bench, you can precisely tune your leveling points and this will ensure accuracy without fail.
If you use three levels to check your level, it's still theoretically possible to have all four levels out of alignment and still real level.
Be careful of what/who you call bush.
blue
The two levels will provide a clear baseline for comparison. Precision requires clear comparison. Will the other method work? Sure, but in a pinch. I try to tune my equipment before getting on site, I do it in the most reasonable and accurate way possible. Like I said, too each their own.
In the turn method you can't easily be sure to place the level in the same place...variation
Can't compare the two readings in place....variation
the right way solves these two issues, but hey, close is still good I guess.
I am always amazed how vehemently people will defend the way they do things even in the face of obvious inaccuracies.
How many people out there don't have two or more levels? How long would it take to put one on top of the other? Is it really that hard to do?
My some people are touchy in them thar parts! Oh well...keep up the good work.
Glen in CanadaCustom build, heritage restoration, heritage millwork.
"In the turn method you can't easily be sure to place the level in the same place...variation"
You might try reading some of the posts you're replying to- the method is to shim the level at two points, until it is dead level, mark the points with a pencil on the level, and turn the level around and set it down on the marks again. If it doesn't still read level, it's off.
I wouldn't trust two levels against one- maybe if I compared a level to 5 others I would trust it, but two levels seems like begging for innaccuracy.zak
"so it goes"
How do you know that one level is reading level wise guy?
So now, instead of putting one level on top of the other to compare the readings in place, you have solved the variation problems of the turn method by taking the time to find shims, shim it out to reading level, marked its exact location, turned it (pray shims don't move), replaced it on the marks, read again. If the reading is the same both ways, is the level accurate? Here is the whole dammed point. What if I now put another level on top and it didn't read level? Which one is wrong? If you didn't put the other level on top you would be using that first "accurate" level right now thinking its spot on....bushleague.
Obviously I should have been more specific when preparing the defense of my doctorate thesis on checking the accuracy of a level. The omission the explanation of my method relates to needing one level you know is good, or a known level area. In my case I always use my 4' stabila shop level which never goes through the rigors of the field. I check it occasionally on a known level surface. Between tests I believe the level to be accurate....my Achilles heel for sure.
Instead, I assumed this method would be used primarily by field workers where there would be no known level location or known accurate level, so I instead used the three level method. Is it really likely two levels are reading inaccurately exactly the same way? If you get three different readings, you're back to step one, but starting with a known good baseline. The one level turn method is entirely unreliable...period. Sure in its simplest form this method is quicker than mine, but quicker still would be just using your eye. Why do something that doesn't actually work...to save time? If you cannot see this, you will never see it. Its not an ego thing, its not a smarter vs. dumber thing...its obvious, to someone who can actually open their mind to an improved way of doing things. I used to use the other method, until someone showed me the error of my ways...believe it or not, I changed, and my manhood didn't shrivel and drop off!
Obviously people are very committed to their methods...great, good, awesome. I'm an idiot ok, everything I say is pure madness. You are right, I am wrong. Keep fighting the good fight. Keep up the "My way (insert other as applicable), right or wrong", yeah, 'cause that thinking has worked out so far! Sheesh!
Let's talk hockey now, at least that provides a good excuse for a fight.
Glen in CanadaCustom build, heritage restoration, heritage millwork.
Your have said that only one face of a level is accurate. Your method requres both faces to be accurate. If you are setting one on top of the other how can you be sure the two sides of one level are parallel?Tom
Douglasville, GA
If that's the premiss for your thesis I don't think your going to fair all that well. Your argument is full of holes.
You condemn others for the very same thing that you suggest.
Your still looking at the levels with your naked eye, how accurate is that from one reading to another.
I can pretty much flip a level is less time then you can go to the truck and get another level, that is unless you constantly carry those three levels around with ya!
Its not that difficult to flip a level and know that you put it in the same place, man were not talking about landing the space shuttle on the moon for god sake!
Next your going to be saying that theres only one way to skin a cat.
Doug
Edited 5/4/2006 3:03 pm ET by DougU
>>Let's talk hockey now, at least that provides a good excuse for a fight.Round 2:Sens over Sabres in 6
I have no dog in this fight, but gotta ask:
where in 'heritage' anything do you find any facet level or plumb?
"there's enough for everyone"
Let's talk hockey now, at least that provides a good excuse for a fight.Hey, how 'bout them 'Canes<G>now I gotta ask, how and where do find a known level surface...this round planet is always bushwacking me<G> I need a dump truck, baby, to unload my head
I am always amazed how vehemently people will defend the way they do things even in the face of obvious inaccuracies.
Well said! Now go past that mirror and this time stop, take a long look!
Keep telling yourself that your better at this then everybody else, you'll eventually convince yourself.
Doug
Legacy, I'm not the touchy one. Your the guy calling the simpler method "bush". You are the guy getting fired up over nothing.
Just for fun though, I'm going to clear up a few of your objections.
#1) It's not hard to place the level in exactly the same place. I guess the easiest place might be the corner of the room your standing it. Just lay the level down tight to two walls in the corner. Flip it around and push it up tight to the walls again. Viola!....exactly in the same spot and it only took one second to walk there!
#2) It's a myth that you have to shim the level to exact level or plumb. If you lay the level down and the bubble is touching the line....rotate the level, and read the same vial. If the bubble is touching the line in exactly the same manner, the level is good to go. Viola!....no extra seconds for needless shimming!
My point was and is: this isn't "bush" thinking....it's logical thinking and it's foolproof. You still haven't admitted that using five, or ten levels could theoretically leave you with an out of whack level. And you haven't admitted that using the rotation method is exact. Once you are willing to admit those two facts, you'll be a lot farther along in your logical thinking skills.
Oh yeah...what would you do if you suddenly wanted to test your level and you were 30' up a scaffold? There have been many times when something isn't working out and I want to blame a bad vial...only to quickly check it using the rotation method...then I get down to the brass tacks of figuring out what the real problem is. Why would I check the level? Because someone might have dropped it that day. Things like that have been know to happen, haven't they? Or, is everyone on your job so perfect that a level has never hit the floor?
I'm anxiously awaiting your answers, including your statement telling us the odds of your accuracy vs ours.
blue
Well and clearly stated, Blue. I don't always find the simply elegant way, but I look for and respect it when I see it.Bill
To borrow one of my Dad's sayings:
'Boy, you just exposed your ignorance'
If you only had one level, how would you check it?
"Citius, Altius, Fortius"
buy another level. Wow, that was some hard thinking coming up with that solution...must sleep now, head hurt! Then back to that perpetual motion machine.
Glen in CanadaCustom build, heritage restoration, heritage millwork.
Let's see- I am on a job, and I suspect my level may be out of whack.Instead of checking the level on site in 2 minutes, I should drive to the store to purchase another level whose accuracy is unknown?
No wonder to me that your head perpetually hurts.
Carry on, Don Quijote!
"Citius, Altius, Fortius"
It seems like you guys are arguing at cross purposes, but otherwise agree. If I am on a job site with only one level(never happen), then I will do the rotate it around to pencil marks technique to verify accuracy or check it against my couple of laser levels or water level. Heck even a baking dish with water in it.IF I am going to a store to buy some new levels, I take a known good level with me, shim it to level and test the ones I am going to buy against it and rotate them to check them against themselves. That is the fastest and most accurate way, for me.This way I can buy a cheap Kaypro plastic and check it against my good Stabila and find the cheap one that was made right and yet not die if I drop it in a void. And I can still count on it to work correctly on the job.
Edited 5/4/2006 8:45 pm ET by KirkG
I'm done arguing. (see Andy Engel's tag line)
test the ones I am going to buy agaist it and rotatate them to check them against themselves.
Exactly.
"Citius, Altius, Fortius"
Edited 5/4/2006 8:40 pm by Heck
I don't know which one is Andy and I agree that arguing is over.
Legocrayon,
Try setting your level down on something close to level.
Read it.
Spin it like a helocopter blade 180 deg.
Read it again.
Should read the same.
TRIGGER
I figured I would cut your board in 4 equal parts using a string line.
Measure off a chunk of string to the length, fold it once, fold it again, then eyeball square.
Did I pass?
"Citius, Altius, Fortius"
Just one other thought to add. I've worked with some "junior" carps. that could likely answer your questions -- knowledge.
Could not rip a sheet of ply in half. Could not cut a 2x without me wincing for their fingers. No skill.
Big difference. Definitely need both, but it can take longer to teach the basic skills than the knowledge.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
If you find someone who can actually read all those questions, hire them! Just give the applicant a utility knife and a pencil, ask them to sharpen the pencil. Any experienced carpenter will be able to sharpen one in a few strokes. We do it all day, everyday. Guys with blunt points go to the framing crew, those with sharp ones go on the finish crew. As a former carpentry teacher, I learned to cut down on paper work and use hands on evaluations. Lots of folks can do well on written tests, that doesn't mean they can get the job done.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Guys with blunt points go to the framing crew, those with sharp ones go on the finish crew.
LOL! I like that one. Every boss is a little different. The guy I do some pickup framing for always says "alright boys, time to sharpen your pencils" when it's time to cut rafters.
Maybe a regional difference or personal preference but for finish work, carpenter pencil gets stowed. I use either a fine mechanical pencil or a knife, depending on what it is. Would I get fired in your region? ;-)
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
ya hand him back his pencil and take out yur mechanical and just tell him it's always sharp, cost effective and ya don't have to waste time stopping to sharpen yur pencil...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Like most guys, I've worked for a number of different crews. Some would look up rafters in the blue book, some step off with a framing square, others like the speed square and some will take the run number, off the tables, on the framing square. What seems to matter around here is that the rafters are up and the sheathing down before lunch. I'm not sure that some of the better carpenters, I've known, even know what a hypotenuse is. It would be a shame to dismiss a person that has three or four hundred houses under their belt because they couldn't pass a written test.I like to keep my pencil on my ear, so, I use the ordinary yellow ones. I have an electric Boston next to the chop saw and under the workbench. The carpenter style pencils don't fit the sharpeners or my ear and I need an eraser. My hand is too heavy for a mechanical pencil, I go about 1/128" and it's broken, doesn't stay on the ear, either, when I bend over and, they aren't sharp enough for the fine work I do, LOL. It's the person that shows up without a pencil that gets fired, no pens on finish work! The pencil sharpening test is more about watching a person use tools. You can tell a journeyman just by watching the way they pull out their tape, use a knife, square a mark. If you're an employer looking for an employee, you probably know what you expect from the person, you have a specific need to fill. In many cases it's as much about fitting in and being productive as anything else. If double jacks on a five foot opening are important, just say so, when the time comes. I don't mean to make light of the original posters question but it had a "tongue in cheek" vibe. If he is looking for a way to improve the interview process, that's good. The test thing, maybe not. Being an employer is a big commitment. Finding and keeping good people is a key to being successful, for both the workers and the company. I think showing respect on both sides makes all the difference. There is a considerable amount of liability with a new hire. Many of the companies I know are doing full background checks and drug screening. If you want to be a serious business, it's not something to take lightly, anymore.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Hammer, that was the funniest and truest and simplest test I've ever heard. If I ever interview someone again, I'm going to casually ask them to sharpen a pencil while I pretend to make a call!
Thanks for the laugh.
blue
thanks,
my pencils are like needles.
carpenter in transition
I use a similar test (attached) for site managers / superintendents.
It works well, and will seperate the men from the boys. The last guy tested told me he had experience and was ready for anything, yet scored below 40 of 100 on the test. He was not truthful, in the initial interview, and admitted after being humbled by the test that his "experience" came from helping his dad with some rental property remodels.
Interviewing about 12 canidates when I was last in need was fun. The essay questions, asking for a description of what you would do in a situation really brought the most interesting and amusing answers.
When I was a framer, many years ago, my test consisted of building a set of saw horses. That was a simple yet effective test for a "framer".
Darn! I was hoping the second doc. was the answers for the first.
5. Describe the following framing terms, and their use.
A. Stud
B. Header
C. Joist
D. Cantaliver
D has something to do with lunch...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
5. Describe the following framing terms, and their use.
A. Stud
B. Header
C. Joist
D. Cantaliver
D has something to do with lunch...
Correct, an Italian / Southern USA dish.
Liver smothered in ricotta cheese and tomater sauce.
Tomater is spelled correctly.
so D would be breaktime....Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
you wouldn't pass a grade school english test"I hate quotations. Tell me what you know" Ralph Waldo Emerson
probably not...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Great test for a super.
You might want to check some of the spelling ("freeze" board and "style" for cab door were two that jumped out I can remember) -- unless it was intentional.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
you passed...
that was part of the test...
you could still understand what the intenion of the question...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
you passed...
When can I start? ;-)
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
you got let go 'cause you were late...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
make that "a no show"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I thank I got da sutharn vershun ov MS Werd Spalechek.
Et ain't wurried bout keywreck spalin, jest if'n you git the rite idear frum wat ez ritten.
gottcha shonuff. ;-)
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Sori two cauz moor trubble Fill, butt eye dunt no ifn "ritten" wuz spaled wit en "i" bee four da "n" or an "e"
Back in my days as a journalist and editor, I had a test for prospective reporters. Obviously, a basic set of skills showing a working knowledge of our mother tongue was vitally important; so were more arcane bits such as AP Style, common sense and the inverted pyramid.
They had 10 minutes to take the test. It was 6 paragraphs. Correct all of the errors (grammar, style, obvious contradictions etc.). There were 122 of them (or 123, I can't recall). No one could get them all. I couldn't get them all in 10 minutes and I'd written it and had the key. The point was to put them under deadline pressure and see how they did. Yes, there were certain key, glaring errors that they d@mn well better correct but mainly it was about how they responded to the pressure and how well they dealt with it.
Jay
yu caan rite? Cann yu cum hear n skool us filthydelfeens? ;-)
(no bonus points for wastin' time spellin' in the building game. When I was a young'in, spellin' meant taking your fair turn at whatever it was -- as in "can you spell me") ;-)
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Yeah, I was curious about whether the misspellings in both tests were intentional or not. There were a few others that were typos like "you" for "your".Perhaps the RO question should have been what is the the header length for a pair of 2'-6" French doors? Then 65 would have been the correct answer.
Thanks everyone for your input. I was surprised by the questions that drew the most heat. I tried to use the word typical as much as I could and thought that it would be taken to mean 'in most cases'. In most cases when I go to a table saw I am ripping a board. So I was looking for a false. I think I should have said how long instead of how big in the header question. But in most cases a header for a 60" R.O. would be either 63" with single jacks and 66'' with double jacks. Since 63" wasn't a choice I was looking for 66". By the responses I've got I'll edit the stair questions. I realize that they might be a little pretensious but my goal was to get someone to write what they new about that subject. I realize that the language part could be a deficit for certain excellent craftsmen that is why I put in the multiple choice. I also have talked to people in the past who I have sensed might have difficulty putting their thoughts into writing. My double door hanging question was trying to get someone to write about the process of setting a jamb, and hopefully let someone who can set a jamb without the door stand out from someone who can only set a door wth the door panel. And in turn let them stand out form someone who only knows a split jamb, Maybe looking for a mention of stringing a jamb diagonally to check to see if the jamb is in plane. To everyone who suggested watching: sharpening the pencil, cutting the 8' stud into four equal parts, building saw horses, I realize that these are valid practices and have used techniques similar to these in the past. I have a need for knowledgable, motivated, articulate carpentry foreman, and carpenters. The test runs from pathetically simple questions to questions that I thought would be interesting for a motivated guy to want to explain their approaches. And I realize that there is more than one way to skin a cat. But I can still remenber when I first learned to lay out a stringer using the hypotenuse and I was smiling and all I could say was cool. A half hour before the guy asked if I knew how to lay out a stringer and I almost said yes. All that aside I wanted to post the test before I gave it out to see if it would offend anyone, and I think by the responses I got here today it does in some way. I'll have to tweak it a little. Just trying to improvise a little. Oh and I think I'll add to the multiple choice - choose the answer that most applies. Thanks again
Also, use shorter paragraphs when posting.
At least one of you can make me laugh! Thanks
really, Hows this?
MR BIRDS
MR NOT
R2
CEDAR WINGS
WHALE OIL BEEF HOOKED
MR BIRDS
hope you all get it , its from the east up here in Ontario, east being New Founland
you having this "discussion" with yurself or there sumbuddy in the room with ya????Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
M R ducks
M R not
R 2
C M Wings?
Y I B
M R Ducks
nice un moi sun.
Bet sum tink yur sum stunned now by.
I'll be after havin sum good laughs over dat one.
Glen from Canada
p.s. Newfoundland is the all around greatest place on earth, God luvs um.Custom build, heritage restoration, heritage millwork.
Some more typos:
Cantaliver - cantilever
<!----><!----> <!---->
Plentium - plenum
<!----> <!---->
Waterheater – water heater
Mahagony – mahogany
<!----><!----> <!---->
Muratic – muriatic
Scott.
Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
Edited 4/24/2006 1:06 pm ET by Scott
Some more typos:
Cantaliver - cantilever
<!----><!----> <!---->
Plentium - plenum
<!----> <!---->
Waterheater – water heater
Mahagony – mahogany
<!----><!----> <!---->
Muratic – muriatic
Scott.
Ewe er kidin, I mispaled Scott?
Plentium sounds like it would do a better job than plenum.
Laughin at myself.
et es gud dat thar ain't no pree-reckwesat fer kinstruktin cumpenny owener fer spalin.
owe-ner........that may be totally appropiate, emphasis on the owe part.
Thanks for the help, Skot.
Edited 4/24/2006 2:31 pm ET by txlandlord
Plentium: A CPU that doesn't make a few small math errors, it makes plentium.
Mr. T.
"My sincere view is that the commitment of our forces to this fight was done with a casualness and swagger that are the special province of those who have never had to execute these missions - or bury the results." - Retired Marine Lt. Gen. Gregory Newbold.
I think I could get a 90 or so on your test.
As for the test of the OP I believe I would do good but it would take awhile for me to write it out.I hope Chuck Norris never potato sacks me!!!!
bstcrpntr --- I hope to grow into this name.
Sent a highly recommended guy down to take his union entrance test.
He barely passed the basic math and thinking skills test.
Could not pass to get anything except 1st yr 1st semester.
He hired in at that scale. Within two weeks I figured out that he just couldn't take test. He was a bright guy, and could do anything.
Did crazy-hard math on a 2*10 but couldn't do the math problem on paper in front of him.
Had his own way of thinking, and it worked forhim.
TEST SUCK for some people, don't rule anyone out for "failing" a paper test.
just my 2centsI hope Chuck Norris never potato sacks me!!!!
bstcrpntr --- I hope to grow into this name.
I just had a student do the union test, and they made him a journeyman based on the test.....he's done some carpentry, but I wouldn't call him a carpenter. He said they didn't make him do the math part because he didn't have a calculator.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
would knowing how to write be a requirement or could ya get by with circles and check marks...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Down in Leadville, I took th eunion carp test. If I remember right, it was mostly a multiple choice test. A pretty good one actually!I'm one who's always been a good tester so I scored well, this was before I actually had more than a couple of years worth of carp experience.The guy in charge told me that he wishhed he could get more guys to score as well as I did.
But he sent me out to interview for a trim carp job on a commercial building. Super asked me to show him how I would hang a steel in frmae door. I had never seen such an animal in my life. told him I could figure it out but it might take me awhile. He told me I needed to hang 30-40 a day or get lost. I got lost.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"A brick freeze" ... has something to do with dessert."Frieze" maybe?
Well, the title of the post is "carpentry questionaire - should be fun". So, isn't it fun and perhaps encouraging to see that a successful custom builder can not spell?
I don't know.
I assume you're referring to the word questionnaire because you spelled it differently than I did. I actually looked that up before I titled the thread. Its spelled right two N's.
Are you still looking for carpenters?Doncha wish your girlfriend was hot like me?
Yes, Do you still have my email address? I have a bberry if there's a way you can get me you # I'll give you a call today sometime.
Edited 4/27/2006 5:36 am ET by quicksilver
You've got mail.Doncha wish your girlfriend was hot like me?
I guess you got to pay for those new wheels now :-)
Pimp'in aint easy.
Doncha wish your girlfriend was hot like me?
Quick,
I was not refering to your post title. I was refering to my numerous spelling errors.
It is hard to teach an old dog new tricks. TX needs to run spellcheck and the wife just bought a dictionary, so I kin futher my edjumacatin me.
I think your test is great, but also agree with many of the critical post. No harm done, just guys carrying your burden and making you better. I'd reread all the post and make some adjustments, but you are on the right track.
All the best to you.
Why a one-size-fits-all written test?
Judging by many of the threads I've seen here at Breaktime, there are a great many highly-qualified craftsmen whose language skills are less than perfect. Granted, your sample quiz may be a rough draft, but I'd guess your building skills exceed your language skills as well.
There may be quite a few fantastic builders who dislike taking written tests, may not be able to read english well enough to feel comfortable (ESL, dislexia, etc.), suffer from test anxiety, or who might think less of you because of the inferences they draw based upon the way your questions are written.
You may think it odd for a college woodworking instructor to pose these kinds of questions, but I'm asking them because I believe they warrant consideration, not just because I'm a smarta$$!
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
I think the test is great. Yes, it appears to be not in its final, edited form, and I agree with Bosshog that the correct header length for a 60" RO is 63" unless there is some serious weight bearing down on it and double jack studs are required.
When I hire I typically get at least ten times the number of applicants for positions available, and I'm a firm believer in the employers right to be as picky as they feel they need to be. Applicants often stretch the truth about their experience. Unfortunately, excellent carpenters sometimes wouldn't perform so well on a somewhat wordy written test, but if you are looking for communication skills as well it would work. Perhaps allowing people to answer verbally would reveal even more valuable information about the applicant, how their thinking precess works, for those not used to expressing themselves with the written word.
Juan
Edited 4/24/2006 1:13 pm ET by juan
lots of confusing language and items that have variables affeting clarity of answer. it might be OK for an interview so you could read the person and how he/she answers, but if I were taking it, I might get t5he impression that the guy hiring me doesn't know as much as he thinks he does, which would be a bad star5t to a potentially good relationship.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
I might get t5he impression ......which would be a bad star5t to a potentially good relationship.
Since we are into the spelling thing, you should know that "the" does not have a "5" before the "h", and start does not have a "5" before the second "t".
Dat mulch eye dew no bout spalin, butt eye em nut shore bout da ferst "t" in start.
Hukt on phoniks werkt fer me.
Edited 4/24/2006 2:56 pm ET by txlandlord
fat fingers...
the 5 is too close to the T or is the other way around...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
5tha5's 5the finger 5that I cut off and 5hey sewed back of 5to me
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
iyup... knew that...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
What this employer could tell about me from that is that I can be expected to hit my fingers with the hamber quite often since they wander into places they shouldn't be too often
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
what about reading a tape or a level? or a set of plans? doesn't matter if he can answer all the right or wrong questions.
I think your test is a great in theory, but the practical application part is what is missing. That is what on the job probationary periods are for.
Can he pass a piss test and show up every day and work a FULL, productive eight hours?
As a side note:
My wife works for a sheetrock supply co and the were hiring someone. He came highly recommended. He was told to go to the clinic to take his drug/alcohol test. Told the manager that he can't because he couldn't pass the test. This was just a urine test. Didn't say why or what he was abusing. But this was a state mandated test because of the D.O.T. class A drivers license.
Just curious, I really do not know the AFF abbreviation?
Anchor Framed Fixture
Alternate Framing ?
Armature Field Force
Army Field Forces
Affiliated
Alumni Faculty facility/forumn
American Aluminum Foundry
Affordable
Another F......g Foreigner
Alternate Fireproof Firestop
Annoyed Family Friend
American Forestry Forum
and the first google hit:
Adult Friend Finders
Okay, I'll bite...AFF = above finished floor
AFF is an architectural abbreviation meaning: Above finished floor.
As in 68" AFF. The finish floor part becomes more important when using real hardwood or equal.
Here's a long answer from someone who would likely be taking this kind of test (independent carpenter with some skill and no established reputation or real resume). I'm largely self-taught, but believe I have done my homework and have a decent level of skill. Also I hate written tests, because the number of correct answers is usually not the same as the number of answers the test author had in mind when he wrote the question.
Maybe it's just me, but it seems that a discussion of these questions would be far more effective than having them write the answers. If you give me this test, I'm going to answer half of these questions with, "It depends..." followed by some questions for you. Rather than having to write out all of the possibilities, we could solve it quickly with a conversation. I could show you that I understand various situations AND, more importantly, can communicate these ideas verbally. How often do you have your guys write essays on a job site? Compare that to how often they have to quickly communicate an idea verbally.
Some examples of the "it depends" issues:
Header for 60" opening: if 63" isn't an option, I'm going to want to know what's above this header. The correct answer (if it isn't 63") is probably "check the plans", because if one jack stud isn't enough, then the engineer probably has specific intructions. Or, as someone else suggested, perhaps you meant what is the header size for french doors that are 30" each.
Staircase tread height: what is the finish material on the floors and the treads?
Height of a 6'8" door opening: interior or exterior? Pre-hung exterior will have a specific threshold size. Interior door can depend on the finish floor, and whether there is any kind of threshold.
How to anchor a knee wall: perhaps my vocabulary is the issue, but "knee walls" can be used in many ways. Some call the short, non-load-bearing wall at the bottom of a sloped ceiling a knee wall. Do I need to explain how to anchor that, as well as talk about pressure treated sills, anchor bolts, powder actuated nails, etc.?
Explain the full process of building stairs with a full balustrade...giving as much detail as you can: Are you kidding? What kind of answers are you getting for this? There are whole books on this. I should say that I don't know if I could properly answer this question, but if I was the kind of competent finish carpenter (that I aspire to) that could answer this, I would be turned off by the amount of time this essay (and a few of the others) would take.
All that aside, I think your desire for a questionnaire is understandable. I really like some of the questions (3,4,5; plumb cut on a hip rafter; how do you crown lumber; which trim do you cope). Perhaps you spend 20 min. discussing this set of questions over the phone or in person, then have them meet you at a job site at some specific time the next morning to build you a set of sawhorses, sharpen a pencil, or some other practical test that would apply to the job you are hiring for. That would show you if they can find a location, arrive on time, and appear presentable.
Good luck!
-Rich
As I go to post this, it looks like you have put up a new post that addresses some of this. I'll post this anyway since I spent this much time writing it.
Just from what you wrote there I would want to talk to you more. All I am looking for is an indication that the person taking the test has some skill. Just because someone passes the test doesn't mean I would automatically give them the job. What I was looking for with the stair question was something hopefully beyond stepping off a stringer. I was ultimately hoping for an explanation that would take creep into account. As I said above I realized pretty quickly that even though no one really mentioned the stair question before you that it was offensive in some way. If you've ever ran an ad and had people call you up all day, day after day and try to BS their way into a job I think you'd understand my desire to have a test like this. My experience is that out of 1 in 10 might be someone I'd want to talk to. Here in the city I've had trouble finding good people. The architects in our firm want to push the envelope and I want to find people up for the challenge. I'm just a nail banger like the rest of you guys. Plus the potential salary associated with these postitions is pretty good. So I think if we are willing to pay a comfortable wage, the applicant would be at least inclined to honestly sit back and thoughtfully answer these questions to the best of their abiltiy.
Bravo! There is never a simple answer to this line of work and you have pointed that out well. your hired!
Someone posted something that I thought was intellegent a while back.
Give a prospective employe a pile of lumber.
Ask him to build a pair of saw horses, (or saw donkeys, saw camels, etc.).
Check the length of time, confidence level, material waste, tools available, neatness, safety, and all that kinda stuff.
TRIGGER
While grinding, you wear safety glasses because they.....
a: magnify your work so you can see your work better.
b: are becoming to you.
c: protect your eyes from flying debris.
TRIGGER
"While grinding, you wear safety glasses because they.....
a: magnify your work so you can see your work better.
b: are becoming to you.
c: protect your eyes from flying debris."
Ahem, the correct answer is: Wearing amber glasses whenever practical improves one's general outlook on life. Clear glasses are worn only as a counterpoint, e.g.- wear the clear glasses for an hour in the morning, until the cloudy gloominess of the weather has sunk in. Then change to amber glasses, and enjoy the sunny bright day now around you. zak
"so it goes"
You are badass zak!
You have plenty of responses already, but a few thoughts:
I think your test is too long. I know a builder that ends his application with only two questions: "How long is an 8' precut? and How many 16ths in an inch" I think these questions are primarily to catch the con artists lying about their experience.
The hypotenuse question...my father has been building since the mid 1960's and cuts complex rafters and stairs, precisely, fast, etc. and does the math in his head. But I'd bet he has never even heard the word hypotenuse.
I think I'll take the questionnaire now and see if I'm stumped anywhere...
where are all the roof framing questions on these questionnaires?"I hate quotations. Tell me what you know" Ralph Waldo Emerson
I'd flunk your test.
Let me guess....you graduated from College and want to turn a carpenter's job into a paperwork job.
Most of the better carpenter's I've worked with wouldn't put a single answer down on that paper, if they could read your big words.
You will accomplish something....but it probably won't be the solution you were seeking.
blue
You guess wrong. I've committed much time and effort into the trade and just want to pass it on and see some fine work accomplished. No desire but to tackle what's in front of me. Where do you get off with that arrogant response?
Carpenters can be sensitive you know :~)
I hear you and I've tried to be cool throughout this but I find it annoying that Blue wants to point out my big words and that most carpenters wouldn't write down a single answer and yet he's got over 6000 posts here on breaktime. Seems like he writes quite a bit about carpentry and I'll bet if I scroll back through some of his posts I'd find a big word or two. Sounds like a bunch of bull #*&# to me.
Seems like he writes quite a bit about carpentry and I'll bet if I scroll back through some of his posts I'd find a big word or two.
I'll take that bet! And double or nothing if he knows what it means.
Sorry Blue, it was there, I had to take it.
Doug
I use an approach called Situational Interviewing. Nothing written, just talk to the candidate about their experiences in specific situations. I'm as much concerned about whether I want to work with the person, and whether they will improve or f-up the work environment, as I am about their technical skills.
Both technical and interpersonal type questions work well in a dialog - gives you a better idea about how you will actually work with the person. For carpentry I can see a combo of discussion and show-and-tell. Stuff like how do you know your level is level, talk through a set of blueprints asking specific questions, stuff like on your and txlandlord's tests.
For the interpersonal type questions I ask about situations where there were conflicts & how they handled them - such as disagreements with a team member, seeing someone doing something wrong and how they handled it, etc. I really liked txlandlord's about the customer asking for a major CO with the boss out of town. Or about particularly challenging problems that they worked through. Just the way they talk about these situations tells a lot about someone - beyond the content of the answer.
My 2¢.
I use that same approach wrudiger, but I never knew it had a name. Situational Interviewing...now I know what to tell Frank I'm doing. He always gets a kick out of some of the terms I use. There are lots of times, he doesn't have a clue as to what I'm talking about...but he fakes it good.
blue
I've got 6000 posts after I changed my name twice!
I'm not the norm. I happen to like to write (type) and I find this to be an outlet. I also have a decent vocabulary because I read anything and everything that is put in front of me. I also am able to explain how to do things because I've been running a rough crew since my third year in the trades. I've had to teach hundreds of rookies. I've also served a formal carpentry apprenticeship, including four years of schooling. I happened to score the highest score ever on thier final exam in that union school. I blew up that test (finished an "unfinishable" test) so bad that I doubt anyone has surpassed it even twenty five years later.
And how many carpenters have I run into on the job that is like me? Maybe one or two in the last 30 years. The best carpenter I've ever worked with couldn't explain a simple thing to anyone. He always answered the same: "I can't tell you how I do anything, but if you want to stand and watch me for a couple of hours, you'll see how I do it". I worked with that guy alone for three years and we never had discussions about how to do things...he just wasn't capable of expressing himself. I never saw him giving instructions. If you knew how to do something, he'd let you do it. If not, he'd put you on something that you knew.
My current partner can build anything, but his spelling is worse than Txlandlords! The best framer that I ever trained would freak out if he had to read and interpret your test. He could be taught anything, but not in theory...he had to see it with his eyes and then he'd never forget it. He hated reading anything and never read a single word about carpentry or building. Another great carpenter I worked with had beautiful handwriting but couldn't pass the carpentry test on the builder's exam. He passed everything else.....
I'm trying to tell you that you are trying to pigeonhole a hands on trade into some bookworm test. Go ahead...do your thing, but don't expect the best people to hire on with you. You have to decide...do you want good test takers, or good carpenters?
blue
Edited 4/24/2006 11:25 pm ET by blueeyeddevil
Blue, I think you kind of refer to a skill that I consider much more important than knowing acronyms or how to lay out a stair stringer: the skill of learning things quickly and well, without necessarily having to be taught. I'm not sure how you test for this, but I've always thought that a good worker should be able to find a correct and elegant solution to a problem by reasoning, not rote memorization of procedures (although that can be useful). It's especially true if you're looking for potential rather than experience.
I suppose I'm biased because I come from a background of working in wilderness/backcountry, where it is critical that you find a solution to whatever the problem happens to be, no consulting the internet or going to the library allowed. Function valued above uniformity. I'm especially biased because that's the mindset I bring to my carpentry- reason through a problem, using whatever resources available (BT definitely included), and find the solution that will work best, whether or not it is the most common. I stand by my biases.zak
"so it goes"
You ask, I answer.
If you are going to start calling people arrogant for answering your question, you probably won't receive the candid responses that you desire.
Perhaps you would prefer me to tell you that I think your idea is brilliant and you'll probably get the cream of the crop in every hire?
Your response to me tells me your true intentions. "I've committed much time and effort into the trade and just want to pass it on". Your "test" isn't really a test, but rather a "testament" of you own experience. Instead of designing a test that will actually be helpful to you, you've designed a test that "teaches".
I'm actually very good at passing tests. I'm also very good at showing you how your test is flawed and the answers that you think are right are probably wrong. I think some other posters alluded to the same thought process. On many of your questions, the answers would have to be qualified.
So now, I'm curious. Why wouldn't you just ask the prospective tradesmen these questions? These simple questions could be answered in less than three minutes with aquick back and forth dialogue.
I'm not denigrating your idea of finding a way to explore your prospect's experience, I'm just thinking that this solution isn't a good way to interview a carpenter. I myself have a script that I go through but I wouldn't want to embarass someone that has spent a lifetime in the field, by forcing them to take a written test. A very high number of skilled tradesmen were very poor at school work. They aren't good with their papers and pencils, they are good with their hands and logic. Your test doen't smoke that out.
Like I said, I'd fail your test. Most of the answers would be found in the blueprints. I personally would walk away from someone that was trying to make me take one of these tests. I'd think the employer was either too controlling or kooky. There's nothing wrong with being either, but you wouldn't get an old mustang like me to walk into your corral.
blue
Controling and kooky....
I was thinking along the same lines...
And I am a "collitch edumacatred carpenter" too.!!!
an engineering degree no less!!!
while you are at it print up a manual of "how the boss would do it" construction techniques...
Mr. T.
"My sincere view is that the commitment of our forces to this fight was done with a casualness and swagger that are the special province of those who have never had to execute these missions - or bury the results." - Retired Marine Lt. Gen. Gregory Newbold.
Years ago when I taught high school my students were tested on every question I asked him.
Quick, I Just gave your test to my 2 best guys!!! They received a 70%. I told them they would be fired if the didn't get at least a 90 on it. They told me to tell you to go scratch you your A$$. We got some fun out of it and they lost their jobs!! Ha Ha. You must be paying big $ to the guys that answer correctly.
-LMC
I am offering some good money, potiantially a salaried position. I just want people to open up and write what they can about the subject. I'm in DC. I've got three remodels going and two pending. Every morning I feel like I have to cut myself in three and get in three different cars and go to three different jobs and within two weeks it'll be five. I started managing the field for a fledgling construction co. of an established architecture firm. It is quite the challange. While still building homes it's seems my main focus is building a company. All in all I'm glad I put the test up yesterday, I wrote it between 8 an 9 at night on Sunday and didn't really edit it because hey the Sopranos were coming on. Any way have a good en. Funny I gave one of my guys the multiple choice yesterday and he got two out of the first six and I went to the car and cried.
I don't know why everyone is giving you such a hard time about this test. I've seen your posts of your work and it is exceptional. You're not a college educated paper pusher looking for peers. And to be honest, based on your previous posts, I wish I wanted to live in DC because I know I could learn alot from you.
Your test is good for weeding out potential BS employees. If you get a guy who can give you a few good answers, he's worth interviewing a little more. I agree with previous posters that some carpenters aren't really great at taking tests. But it sounds like you might (with your salaried position) be looking for carpenters who ARE good at taking tests...or doing things similar to taking tests.
Some guys are cut out to be carpenters only. Some guys are meant to be leads, others are meant to be business owners. Just because a carpenter can't do well on a test doesn't mean he isn't capable, it just means he lacks some of the communication skills that others have. And perhaps he makes up for it in other ways.
If a "great" carpenter can't take or understand this test, is he cut out for the position being offered?
Some people just like to be offended.
The question left off that nobody mentioned yet is:
What are the black diamond on your tape for?
PS: I honestly had never ever run across the meaning given for the AFF, always refered to it a CH.
Edited 4/25/2006 10:09 pm ET by junkhound
Only people who live in areas where they do not lay things out at 16: O.C. in an effort to save a board every 8' would know that.
>>"Only people who live in areas where they do not lay things out at 16: O.C. in an effort to save a board every 8' would know that.
I don't live in such a place and I know what it is.
I heard a joke that Noah knows what it is too. ;-)
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
If you asked me that set of questions I would know you are ignorant and do not know it. I would have looked at them and walked away.
I can tell that you do not know the difference between the slope and pitch of a roof.
If you had learned from the man I did, the rough openings you gave for a 2'6" door as choices would be either too big or too small. Your choices tell me a lot about you. It tells me a lot about the material you use too.
The height of the riser and width of the tread will vary depending on if it is a commercial job or residential. The codes are different.
I do not always use the 3,4,5 method. Sometimes I use the 8,15,17; 5,12,13; 9, 40, 41; Sometimes I use the 1,1,and the square rooot of 2. Most of the time I measure the diagonals.
I never just cut crown molding and put it up. I cope it.
Could you answer any of the following questions?
Do you know the difference between FAS, 1C, and 2C. How about selects and FAS1F.
Could you tell me where the best No. 1 white hard maple comes from. Could you tell me where the best cherry lumber comes from. Could you tell me what part of the US the best walnut comes from?
Could you tell me when jointing or planing a piece of lumber would you go with the direction of the rays or the direction of the grain?
Could you tell me the S2S dimensions of 4/4, 5/4, 6/4, 8/4, 10/4, 12/4 and 16/4 hardwood lumber?
Edited 4/26/2006 3:24 am by gb93433
72854.94 in reply to 72854.1
If you asked me that set of questions I would know you are ignorant and do not know it. I would have looked at them and walked away
I wouldn't use the word ignorant, but I was thinking along the same lines. The lack of clarity and specifics in the questions led me to believe that if I hired in with him, I'd be in for a long drawn out battle about how to do things properly. I'd have to retrain someone that already is set in their ways, and already knows it all and I'm not the type of person that would bother with that challenge.
blue
72854.94 in reply to 72854.1
>If you asked me that set of questions I would know you are ignorant and do not know it. I would have looked at them and walked away
>I wouldn't use the word ignorant, but I was thinking along the same lines.
well, as a practical matter, the OPer wants to separate the wheat from the chaff, and proposed a written test as a mechanism, indicating that he spends a lot of (valuable) time interviewing unqualifed individuals -
this strategy would select for literate individuals with technical/practical knowledge - this is not to be disparaged, but as has been noted, hands on people are not uniformly good at written tests, so there is danger of weeding out that 'good' person -
various hands on tests have been proposed - the 'pencil' is my favorite - the classic 'sawhorse' - sawing a 2X4 - etc - but these take a field setting and that 'valuable' time previously mentioned - I believe the OP is looking for a means to weed out unqualifed people before putting high speed steel in their control -
looks to me like a shorter, simpler, very clearly worded test might be the ticket to get the applicant the call back for the interview, where the OP could show some discresion and judgement -
managing/evaluating human beings is a messy proposition -
thanks for the thread, it's a good one -
"there's enough for everyone"
Me and the crew just read your post. Thanks for the laugh. A helper pointed out that one actually does cut with a coping saw. I admittedly didn't know the FAS questions the rest 3 could answer although I don't think they apply to the field.
>>"A helper pointed out that one actually does cut with a coping saw.
Now that's funny!
I'm not one to throw stones and while this might appear to be, it's not, but I'm guessing you & crew don't do finish/trim work?
I'm sure you are excellent at what you do.
PS: coping pretty much doesn't involve actually using a coping saw any more. ;-)
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Okay....I'm curious about where the best hard maple comes from. Do you mean just in the U.S? Your answer and mine might be different.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
oh adrian, from a tree, man, from a tree<G> I need a dump truck, baby, to unload my head
Dang.....shoulda KNOWN that. Dang.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
Use your questionair to find out info about the person. Examples: Favorite tasks? Reason for applying for job? how do you define your work ethic?
Some people have more to offer than skills like good customer relations, positive attitudes, easily able to learn, willing to entertain other peoples ideas and approaches, team oriented. Think outside the box when you write up the questionaire. If you were asked to fill one out what info would you like your future boss to know about you? your selling points.
Just my 2 cents
good luck, hiring never an easy thing.
I'm done arguing.
fer this bit... somebody else will be along shortly...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Here I am, oh never mind.
not me...
the other guy.....Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
did you take number?
are you patiently waiting?
bring lunch at least?
several perhaps?
comfy?
it'll be a while before it's yur turn...
I have my own line holding at the door...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
after your hiatus, you've got a lot of catching up to do.
just 'cause I wasn't here didn't mean that there was a Hiatis.. some still foamed at the mouth.. rattled their chains and talked their flavor of garbage... others - just the opposite...
so it just continued on... never missed a beat... picked up right like the resume play button was pushed...my seat was saved...
be sing along...
the beat goes on...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
ain't it the truth
Just read this thread from end to end and feel like it was finals week!
The intention is good, but tests turn out best for those who are good at taking tests and so much of carpentry is very hard to test for.
On the "please write a book about building stairs" question I'd simply put the pencil away and explain that time is too valuable to spend that much effort on a screening questionaire, but I'd be glad to talk about what the company needs and how I can help.
Likewise, simplistic practical tests like building sawhorses are easy for those who can build good sawhorses, but doesn't show much else. Every young carpenter I've worked with has been shown a 16/32 sawhorse that always wins whenever a 'horse contest comes up. They are shown, not to have good sawhorses (those usually have Trojan painted on the side), but rather to simply be good at that game when it comes up, and it will.
16/32 horse:
Set wormdrive at 16 degrees, bevel a 32" 2x6 around all edges for the back, cut 32" 2x4 legs at a 16 degree angle (same 16 degree bevel and both end cuts going in the same direction) and cut two 16"x16" triangles of osb.
The leg angles fit nicely inline under the beveled ends of the back and the same leg can be used on the right or left just by turning the board end for end so there's no need to figure two sets of cuts. Use the two osb triangles for diagnal and end support templates by simply holding the triangles against the legs/back quickly marking the true angles and simply cut 4 ends and 8 sides from the scrap out of the dumpster. These get attached to the outside of the legs and backs, ridgidly locking everything together.
Shoot the works together with a rapid fire sheathing stapler for effect. Then throw them as hard as you can to show how well they stay together, stand/jump on one to show how stable they are, hand the boss one so he can feel how ultralight weight they are, then stack 'em on top of each other and explain how easy it is to make them any height or width. The splayed legs (going out and away from the back at 16 degrees) have the perfect compound miters so the ends are flat to the ground and look pretty fancy. Saw hook? Just nail a 16" 2x4 to whichever leg you want. Use the most torn up 2x4s, preferably a combination of pressure treat and discarded stickers, and the ugliest osb in the scrap pile for extra effect--you'll look thrifty.
A snotty-nose kid, not worth having for a laborer can remember the 16/32 since there are no variables to ponder and have it half built by the time a real carpenter is deciding on the final dimensions of a more complicated design that won't work as well.
Cheers
Trout, I like your approach to sawhorse building. I think the splayed legs are superior, but I prever a steeper pitch....maybe 10 degrees or so.
blue
I think the splayed legs are superior, but I prever a steeper pitch....maybe 10 degrees or so.
The 12.5 degrees in the Trojan horses seams ideal, so I'm inclined to agree with you.
16/32 does seem to roll off the tongue better. :-)
I have a friend who's dad was a contractor that had a simple test. He would had a carpenter a hand full of framing nails and tell him to drive them. If he first sorted the nails so the heads were all up, he thought he had wasted too much time, and would not let him proceed. He would have failed the test. When he told me that, my mouth fell open. Back when I was framing, I could slap 16# nails in all day long with one stroke faster than most guys with a gun, and there was no way that I could sort nails with one hand as fast as I could drive with the other.No wonder this guy never learned to use a framing square with this kind of dad for a teacher.
Keith, Im not quite sure whether you are a sorter, or your not. I reread you post and couldn't figure it out.
I don't sort, I can easily get the pointy head down before the hammer arrives again but I wouldn't reject a framer on that basis alone. Everybody has their quirks and that is just a quirk.
In the whole scheme of things, fast nailing really won't make a difference either in overall productivity.
All of these quirky little specific tests are amusing but not really that relevant. They will all tell you a little about a tradesmen, but not enough to pass final judgment.
blue
Hey Blue, When I reach into my apron, I bring up maybe 20 nails, which when held in a loosely in my cupped hand will polarize themselves with a little shake. Then it only takes one motion to grip all of the heads on the palm end, and flip them all at once, in the same time that it takes to flip one.<In the whole scheme of things, fast nailing really won't make a difference either in overall productivity. >
In this day in time, where everyone has a gun for every job, maybe not, but my framing years were over 30 years ago. If I can drive two nails in the same time another man could drive one, if decking a roof has ten man-hours of time to get it all nailed down. If I can do it in five, then I may have the felt on by the time the other guy gets the decking done.However I know there are lots of little things that make up the whole package of good craftsmanship that all need to work together, and nothing hurts worse than having to repair mistakes, which I'm guessing was the point of Quicksilver's goal in testing applicants.
An old carpenter watches his young helper & sees him throwing nails on the ground as he is putting up wood siding and asks him why. The helper says that 1/2 the nails don't work, they're backwards. The old carpenter explains that he is wrong and in fact those nails are for the other side of the house.
Dang, I have been driving them in the house next-door.
easiest way to check skill is show the guy to the scrap pile and have him build a new set of saw horses. you can tell by what he comes back with and how long it took him what kind of carpenter he is.
You can't make a horse out of my scrap pile.
mine either...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!