Clients brought fans by they finally found and they were neat Casablanca Verrazano’s.Big problem is we wired the fans with 14/3 w grd. and now looking at the instructions they want 3 hots from source to switch and fan.One for fan/one for light/ and one for “nuetral’?.Is there any way we can wire these up with the wire we got.Getting new wire there is impossible because of panelled cathedral cielings.I wired other fans such as Hunters and never needed 3 hots.No way to use the white as a hot leg is there?Helppppppppppppppppppppp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Thanks
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Did I say use the ground as the neutral? Couldn't have been me! I would never say USE THE GROUND FOR THE NEUTRAL. Not possible. It would never meet code if you USE THE GROUND FOR THE NEUTRAL.
If I read Treetalk's post right he's said two different things - first that he needs 3 hots, then that he needs a hot for the fan, a hot for the lite and a neutral......which is the way that fan should be wired - two switched hots and a neutral.
If he's wired w/14-3 w/ground he has exactly what he needs. The black wire in the cable goes from the lite switch on the wall to the colored wire in the fan housing that controls the lite, the red wire in the cable goes from the fan switch on the wall to the colored wire in the fan housing that controls the fan motor. The white wire in the cable goes from all the white wires in the wall box to all the white wires in the fan housing and the bare ground wire in the cable goes from the ground connection in the wall box to the green wire in the fan housing.
Edited 8/1/2002 7:27:47 PM ET by allaround
Uhh stop doing electric work, you don't have the talent kid. I can see that from all the way over here. Either that or when you sober up read your post and just hit delete. We'll forgive you. Alright I guess I'm picking on you cause you don't know what a neutral is, and your doing electric work. Really get someone else to do it.
P.S. A.J. if this is you,you really didn't put a lot of effort into it. Stick your head back in the stream.
Gunner/
Casa balanca is who calls it a" nuetral" but were not talking wire function here but some mode on the fan/lite dimmer..like its a transmission or something.Whatever it is...its what the 3rd hot is for.Casablanca tech person told me light wont work without 3 hots..wired to switch..as per instruction sheet.Two were always enuf on other fans.so go figure.I love to hear what the 3rd hots function is.
I am looking lustfully at that white wire just kinda being there......and they are very nice looking particulairly with the lights on...
Me ive lived off grid in a solar electric house for 16 yrs....my fans are all DC. and Im sinefully inverted to AC to to query here.I appreciate the extra minds.
Weekend warrior..u mimic my devious mind!
Edited 8/1/2002 10:54:21 PM ET by Treetalk
How many wires are there on the fan and what color are they?
Look at this page for a similar control by Casablanca.
http://www.casablancafanco.com/services/omans/instructions_w28.pdf
If you have power at the wall switch box, then one of your three wires will be the neutral, the other two are switched. If power is in the ceiling box, then it is like the .pdf diagram, and all three to/from the wall control are hot, but one is hot all the time and the other two switched. What's shown is no different than any other fan I've seen with individual fan/light control. Check the wiring diagram that came with the fan. Better yet, call an electrician and let him/her check it. And by the way, that's a really cool looking fan.
Be seeing you...
What Allaround said. Unless this is a very novel fan, I have seen a few with heaters that indeed do need more conductors, 14/3 will do. Be sure to get it connected to a 15A circuit breaker.
50 lashes with a wet noodle for anyone suggesting the use of the ground as a neutral.
Not a "good" suggestion, but safer than using your
ground as neutral: Use the white wire in your 14/3
as the third hot. Grab an actual neutral from another
fixture in the ceiling, like a recessed light.
Make sure to label everything in the switch box as
well as inside the fan so somebody does not kill
themself later. If you do use the ground as the neutral,
like people did for 80 years, it is not too likely that
the world will come to a premature end.
Bob,
If you're serious about "grabbing a neutral" from another fixture, you're offering very dangerous advice.
The neutral that you grab from another fixture might well be on another circuit. It's not uncommon to have fixtures in the same area of a house or even the same room, fed from different circuits. Big danger here if you're working on the fan circuit, having killed the power, and the other circuit is on. You've got an energized neutral because it's a shared neutral, energized by the other circuit. When I work on houses wired with knob and tube, where shared returns (neutrals) are the way it was done back then, I usually cut power to the whole house. Cut the hot, check the neutral, no power, and then--suprise!--the shared neutral is hot because someone turned on a light.
And if you grab a neutral from another fixture, and the other circuit's hot comes from the other pole (of the 240V), that's BIG trouble. The fan will see somewhere between 120V and 240V depending on the load on the other circuit.
Maybe you ought to stick to plumbing.
Cliff
Stick to plumbing? Maybe you need to read a few books.
MAybe take the license exam over again.
ALL neutrals are tied together at the panel. All
grounds are also at almost the same potential as neutral
if no faults exist. They are tied to the neutral
bus at one point. A neutral is never "hot". It may be
a few volts above ground if there's a heavy load on that
circuit, but if its more than a couple volts you have a
different problem that needs to be fixed. Neutrals are
not switched by a breaker. They are always connected.
If you grab a neutral from a 240 fixture, its still neutral
and WILL NOT be at 120 to 240 volts. This assumes that a
true neutral has been run. If some idiot just ran two hot
wires and hopes that an unconnected neutral is halfway between,
all bets are off.
It is not good practice to grab a neutral from another
circuit, but it will not result in a fixture being unreasonably
"hot" when the breaker providing the hot connection
is "off" if there are no other wiring faults. The wall switch,
which is the only part someone can touch, is properly grounded.
The fan is also properly grounded. The only issue is that there
may be 5 volts on the fan neutral when the breaker is off.
If you touch it, you're not going to get killed. If you short
it to hot or ground when the breaker is off, no problem either.
Now, if someone actually disconnected that neutral, you do have
a big problem. Everything goes hot. That is why it is not good
practice.
I might add that if you borrow a neutral from another circuit on the same pole in the panel, you add neutral current in that circuit in the amount of the device current you've connected, which means that if you add a 5A load to a 15A circuit, the neutral could carry 20A while the breaker only carries 15A. The neutral doesn't have the overcurrent protection that either hot does. Unless the borrowed circuit is on the opposite pole, but then the hazards outlined above still apply. I agree, it sounds dicey.
Be seeing you...
Absolutely. It is not a great idea, but in the case
where it is simply not possible to add an extra wire,
it is an option. Would I put up with that in my own
house? Yep. Its an old house and there are worse
violations than that already. I know the risks.
Its a little fan with a light. If it were an air handler
with a 10KW heater, my answer would have been different.
An extra couple amps in the neutral will not start a fire.
There are safety factors and margins. You won't have much
left, though.
Would I do that in a customer's house? Nope. Even
when its impossible, its possible to add wires. Just
takes more time. I have fiber optic probes and long
drills and all sorts of little toys made just for adding
wires in impossible places. Never yet failed. Had a
few customers turn white at the cost, but that's what
they asked for. The original question was answered.
Yeah, you can do that in a pinch without actually killing
yourself. If somebody wants to be a snob about it, of course
you're not allowed to do that - tear up the walls and
add a wire.
Bob,
For one thing, the neural has to lie alongside the hot wires to cancel the electromagnetic force. That is, it must be in the same conduit or piece of Romex.
The neutral is "hot " in the sense that it IS carrying the same current that the [real] hot wire does. If you cut it, you can measures 120 volts between the two halves. I you touch the side connected to the load, you will get shocked. True, there should be little voltage difference between the neutral and ground.
-Peter
Bob--
Agree that the "stick with plumbing" comment was uncalled for, but also agree with PM22. The ground and neutral are not the same thing. Put yourself in series with the ground, and nothing should happen. Put yourself in series with the neutral and you will get shocked.
Regards,
Rework
Edited 8/4/2002 12:26:16 AM ET by Rework
Treetalk,
TDKPE is exactly correct,you have no problem.You just misunderstood the directions.That's why I only read them as a last resort.
Barry
Treetalk, I am convicted that you have everything you need electrically in place at the fan mounting. You did use a genuine fan rated box I hope. Unfortunately you don't have the knowledge base, no insult intended, to know this. Relax, not everyone can be brilliant in all areas. I am quite dim about playing music and dancing.
I once had to tell a helper that "I wish you luck and all the prosperity in the world. You have a bright, long and promising career ahead of you. This brilliant career is not in the electrical trade." Find someone you trust who knows about electricity, a real electrician would be my recommendation, to hang the fan. But being an electrician I am biased.
All the talk about getting a third hot or a neutral to the box is besides the point. The proposed modifications are ill advised, clear violation of all the electrical codes I know about and unsafe in addition to being unnecessary.
Ditto.
Edited 8/4/2002 10:24:47 AM ET by Gunner