Hi friends,
I’ve recently been hired to do the finish carpentry work on an Arts and Crafts remodel here in Tucson, AZ.
I’ve been handed the thorny problem of coming up with a design solution for casing an arched French door that enters into a round room. So the interior and exterior walls are both at a radius of approximately 10′. I do know that round rooms are not in keeping with Arts and Crafts style, but here it is. Remodeling challenges take all forms and permutations.
One of the major problems with an arched door into a round room is that the inner walls are concave thus impeding the path of the doors as they swing into the room. So we are stepping back the plaster in order to create more swing room for the doors.
I am looking for advise in how one might elegantly step casing back to the jamb. The casing everywhere else is a butt jointed head and legs treatment, the head being thicker than the legs, all in cherry with ebonized peg detail.
Has anyone ever seen such a treatment in Arts and Crafts style? Or suggestions about any standard step down molding treatment in Arts and Crafts style?
We always have the possibility of using plaster to finish back to the jamb, but a wood solution is our goal if it can be reached.
Look forward to any input, Steve
Replies
Steve
first off, welcome.
I'm trying to visualize what you have.
I have drawn a picture to look at and I see where your door would hit the plaster, I assume that they open far enough(that would depend on the radius) so that normal traffic has no problem coming and going from the room. Are the doors radiused as well? (That would be cool if they were.)
If you put wider/deeper hinges on would you gain anything? I'd be reluctant to change the molding in order to get the door to swing tighter to the wall. Unless its an issue of needing them to open more.
No matter what you did, including eliminating the casing all together your not going to get the door to open tight to the wall.
Would be nice to see a picture of this.
Doug
Hey Doug,
Thanks for your response. I am trying to attach a picture or two.
The doors were salvaged by the homeowner from some San Francisco Arts and Crafts house. They are flat slabs, they would be remarkable if they were curved as well.
I haven't explored any other hinges that would let it swing further out. You can see in one pic that the plaster has been cut back and stepped (and wrapped with sheetrock) to allow the door to swing wider than 90 degrees. So the amount of swing problem has been dealt with to some degree. You're right they will never open completely flat.
The real issue for me now is how to finish it off with wood in an arts and crafts style. No matter what style the final casing will be some tricky bent laminations, as they will have to be bent into an arch to match the door jamb and they sliced again to be bent for a round room.
Hope this picture goes through since I've never done this before.
Steve
Stevin, Here is a link to another discussion similar, and someone who can help. I wish I had time to help. If you have a customer with money, I would be happy to make you some doors to any curve that you want with an arch top and jamb to match, but that would be about a year out for me.
http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/forums/aw.pl?read=394961
Thanks Rootburl,
The fabrication of actual compound radius curves will not be beyond our scope, but the problem is more from a design perspective as to how Arts and Crafts elements can be used in such an application. I've never seen anything like this in Arts and Crafts style houses or books.
I bet thoses doors would be something. Unfortunately the homeowner already found some she salvaged from some San Francisco A&C house.
Steve
Steve
Your pictures are huge! I have cable modem so no big deal to me, takes all of two seconds to load but for the dial uppers they wont open these pictures, way to big, takes to long to open.
24441.1
http://www.irfanview.com/
Download this program, its free and easy to use.then click on the No. 24441.1, there is all kinds of info to help you resize your pictures.
It appears in your picture that the jamb is considerably narrower than the wall, is that the case?
Does the doors open towards us(as we are viewing them). If so couldn't you have flushed out the jambs to the wall that we are looking at.
This may all be a moot point right now, looks like you have already started to do something else.
I see what you need for casing, I have did a lot of curved moldings, but yours is a compound curve!
this is going to require some thought. I have to think about this overnight.
I'll check back in tomorrow, right now I'm a bit stumped!
Doug
hey Doug,
Sorry about the size. I did resize them with Photo Paint. Thanks for the freeware though, Ijust downloaded it
A bit of history on this job. I am the second finish carpenter to try his hand at the work on this house. Everything you see here in these has been put together before me. Actually he did an adequate job for the most part.
The doors do open into the room, or what I call the inner side of the round room.
What you see as the jamb being smaller than the wall is where the wall has been recessed to allow for an acceptable amount of swing. It used to it the wall on the upper corners of the doors, at the turn of the arch just above the spring line. The fact is that you can't bring the door any further into the room since it would intrude past the curve of the wall at the top of the doors where they meet.
The compound curves mouldings are within our ability, it is more a design issue. How can it be done in an elegant Arts and Crafts style? There are classical solutions to this problem, there is even a french name for it (which I don't remember), but all of those treatments are very classic appearance with ogees of various stripes. Definitely not Arts and Crafts.
Here are the smaller pix.
Steve
Steven, It has ben about fifteen or more years since I went through my craftsman stage, so I have probably forgotten more than I have retained, but here are some thoughts.First it would be helpful if I knew how the room was to be used, and are there any interior desecrators involved?I would thing of making the header portion thicker than the side facings, and let them end up wider than the side also. Another detail I really like from that period is that there was normally a picture mold, and the portion of the wall above was normally painted the same as the ceiling color. If I were you I would try to tie that into this doorway at the spring-line, or about 3" lower and gain another level.To my eye some of the finest stuff of this period is just so elegant in its simplicity. You are not looking for a lot of molding detail, but you do need some changing levels of depth and shadow to keep it interesting.I would be thinking of using a plinth also, just a little wider than the facing, but half again thicker, and maybe just a little step down or two for transition detail. Listen, If you are not vacuum bagging, now is the time to start. Just get back to me, and I can talk you through it.Good luck. this should be a fun job, I hope there is something in this for you, Keith
Rootburl,
Thanks for your thoughtful suggestions.
First the doorway passes into a library, a round library at that. At this point, there are no decorators, and the architect is no longer giving much input. The homeowner has a good and definite sense of what she is looking for, but is relying on the craftsman for good input. In my case, a lot of input.
You are right about the casing details. Our casing, all cherry, has a header and two legs, the header thicker than the legs. There is some talk about incorporating an "ebonized" parting bead below the header.
I very much like your suggestion about a picture mold line which ties into the spring line. Very nice.
Your are also right that any molding treatments need to be simple and artistic (that is not so simple it is "modern" or "the easiest way out." A plinth may be out of the picture though, as the architect did design some details where the casing and baseboard meet, using "ebonized" square peg details.
I'll definitely call on you if we vacuum bag.
This is a fun job so far, and fortunately the I've worked it out to do this T& M at my premium rate. So I can't lose money.
Thanks again, Steve
You are way over-thinking this and not allowing the door to be what it wants to be. It is a battle of wills and the door will always win.Instead, bring the door jambs flush with the interior walls at the side jambs. Yes, as you stated, this will bring the header proud of the curved wall. Fine, as this can be addressed with the casing. The casing will need to be scribed to the wall and be as thick as how much the door is proud + 1/4" so as to lay on the jamb.No matter what you do, you are still putting a straight element into a curved enviroment. This will always be apparent. So, make it work for you rather than create more work.Frankie.
I thought about this some today, also ran it by another guy at work.
we thought that building a new jamb that matches the radius in the wall, that way your only making trim with one radius.
Then the whole job becomes much easier.
Just a suggestion.
I think rootburl had a good example of what to do as well.
Doug
Doug,
Thanks for your thoughtfulness.
As to building a new jamb, we have an existing one that at this point probably has to be kept. On the convex side (the outer side of the wall) the jamb does extend to the sheetrock.
But on the concave side, it might make sense to build left and right jamb extentions that step back from the existing jamb, but still come out to the sheetrock. I do wonder if that would be too simple a look?
thanks Steve
Steve
I do wonder if that would be too simple a look?
Not in my opinion. Which doesn't mean a hell of a lot, I'm no fan of A&C so I wouldn't be the one to give advice on it.
I could see the jamb coming out even with the sheetrock, just as on a typical door, and your casing only having to have one radius to it. That might seem like taking the easy way out but I kinda like it.
Also liked the way that ____ posted(don't remember who) with the picture of the stone house. That wouldn't be all that difficult to do either.
Doug
Doug et al,
Here are some drawings made by JeffB over at JLC Online (Katz's forum). They are not completely accurate, but they help to illustrate better than my pictures.
Doug,
I think I will try to draw it out on Sketchup (3-d program) and see if I like it.
Steve
Whatever you decide pictures would be nice!
Doug
Steve
The link that rootburl posted looks very informative. I think I'll store that for later.
You mentioned that that's within your scope of work but your still having some problems with the design of the trim to fit A&C.
I think you can do about anything within reason, how many other A&C doorways like this one is there to compare it to!
Good luck and post more pictures as you go, looks interesting.
Doug
I am going to disagree with the others. I think that the jamb should finish beneath the plane of the wall (significantly). The jamb will remain as a standard width jamb. The jamb should be trimmed beneath the plane of the drywall and then the drywall should return into the trim. This simplifies the whole thing. You will be fitting easily workable drywall, cornerbeads and joint compound rather than working with tough to fit curving trim. Photo 3867 is an example of the exterior of a home with exactly what you are doing but with stone jamb returns instead of drywall. Sorry about the picture size, but you need this one big so that you can save it and zoom in on the front door.
I have a feeling your wall thickness may not be thick enough to accomodate doing this. It may mean ripping your jamb width down to a pretty narrow jamb.
carpenter in transition
An Asian or even a Moorish look is also consistent with Arts and Crafts. Particularly during the American Aesthetic period, around 1895 to 1920 there was a substaintial Asian influence in the Arts and Crafts movement. Arches are common in Moorish design.
What about running plaster to make the trim (similar to how plaster crown molding is run)? Then you paint to make the look you want.
Bryan,
Now that you say it Asian influences are there in A&C. I had not thought of it.
I did hear today from my old boss at Historic Doors that Arts and Crafts movement also had a lot of Gothic influences as well. Having not studied the history of architecture this is new and exciting to see.
Plaster is one of the methods being considered. I would love to find someone here in Tucson with that background. Tucson is very strong in what I call the "mud crafts", yet the kind of plaster work you suggest is very uncommon here. Its worth talking to someone about it.
Ultimately, the homeowner would prefer a wood treatment.
Steve