Need some help here- Would appreciate any feedback from other readers experiencing similar situations. Your opinions of the most likely cause and remedy advice (without any major rework) would be greatly appreciated.
Called in to correct a situation for a recent conversion of a garage to living space in the northeast (Long Island, NY area). Couple of issues to contend with which I suspect may be due to insulation & vapor barrier application or improper air circulation, as well as, high fluctuations in temperature and/or air moisture content include: Findings: The room does not have a constant source of direct heat, warm air does however circulate through double door opening to adjoining heated area. On coldest days, a portable kero-heater is in operation to remove the “chill”. (This may be the #1 contributing factor to the developing cracks in the drywall seams due to contraction/expansion of materials.) Several recessed light fixtures were also installed in the ceiling, which may also contribute to heat loss in ceiling cavities and additional condensation build-up occurring? |
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Erlee
welcome to BT.
How long has has this garage been finished?
I'm in Cold Spring Harbor/Huntington area, L.I
Be warm?
a
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I believe it"s just over four months.
4 months and you haven't filled in your profile yet?
C'mon dude....get busy : )
a...The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
From:
Andy Clifford(Andybuildz) <!---->
1:16 am
To:
Erlee <!---->
(2 of 4)
53499.2 in reply to 53499.1
Erleewelcome to BT.How long has has this garage been finished?I'm in Cold Spring Harbor/Huntington area, L.I
Be warm?a
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
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Andy,
Thanks for the welcome but am I mistaken or did you not ask how long since completion of the project?
uhhhh...yeh, its the post above in there somewhere.The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
So anyhow, what do you think is the cause of the problem?
Erlee
Real hard to say without seeing it...how sealed is the floor?
Is the garage door insulated/sealed?
Are there continuous vents in the soffets?
Sort of sounds like moisture from the slab to me or foundation walls.
Another thought that comes to mind is....how good is the drainage around the outside of the foundation? Was it waterproofed?
Are there springs in the area like my last house....hence Cold "Spring" Harbor?
Fluctuations in temp really shouldn't have that much to do with it IMO specially if its insulated properly which sounds like it is.
Any leaks in the walls from the roof or where ever... that build moisture on the sill plates?
Are there gutters properly installed and kept clean?
Too many variablse to give a concise answer.
a...The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
The kero heater will actually put out a lot of water vapor as a byproduct of combustion, then it will condense on any cold surfaces.
Is it possible that the water is running down from the cathedral ceiling? Does it have can lights?
I also believe the kero heater is putting out moisture as a byproduct of heat, but...
As for lights, YES, there are eight R-20 mini cans which are not rated for direct contact w insulation & the recommended airspace is present around the cans. I would think however, that the venting cavities would carry away any potential condensation elements; would that not be the case?
"there are eight R-20 mini cans which are not rated for direct contact w insulation & the recommended airspace is present around the cans. I would think however, that the venting cavities would carry away any potential condensation elements; would that not be the case?"
Unsealed, can lights act like little chimneys, pumping warm moist air into the rafter bays, where the moisture condenses. Ventilation does nothing but accelerate the process in this case. The air going out the top is displaced by cold air coming in anywhere it can down low. The garage door area may be the weakest link.
Edited 2/1/2005 2:48 pm ET by csnow
I agree, the cans are causing chimney effect cenvectiion to condense moisture. The main source of the moisture is the kerosun heater and the cold air drawing in at the ex-garage door sill is where the replacement cold air is coming from, creating max dew point at that location.Solutions
Get IC cans, remover source of moisture - kerosun - especioally since once the leaks are stopped the lavk of ventilation will leave CO gas there to kill the occupants
use canned spray faom at base of ex-door to seal at sill
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
OK,
Checked w. owner- insists that kero heat has not been used for the last few weeks; now they have a stain on one of the horizontal joints from moisture. A leak in the roof is not evident but could exist. That only leaves one other possibility- condensation? Check out the attached pic.
A long crack with a void leaking downhill between 2 cans. From here it looks like the joint was never taped, but I could be mistaken.
Even without an active kerosene heater, the moisture generated in the rest of the house will travel throught the open door way and find its way up and out the unsealed can openings and condense when contacting the colder area above. IC cans would be best and then find a way to seal those openings. Some build a drywall box between the rafters or joists that isolates the can. Do check further for a roof leak. Are there any penetrations above?
Did I read that the room insulation is placed Kraft side in but a poly barrier is on the other, unfaced EXTERIOR side? Nice trap for moisture.
Joint was taped. Must have been enough moisture build-up to peel open the fg mesh tape & spackle.
There are soffit vents installed & at the peak a common air space that opens up to an existing attic at one end & a gable vent at the other end of the peak. Raft-R-Mates are installed in the ceiling cavities with kraft faced FG insulation (face on the warm side). Only penetrations are the recessed lighting cans.
No poly on the ceiling, only on the vertical garage door wall & raised floor. The garage door is below this ceiling line, behind the closets (see attached pic). Also, this wall/roof/ceiling faces east-south-east.
BTW, the opposite ceiling shows no evidence of any major condensation build-up.
-?-?-?-
Sure, the heater is gone, but the moisture still got created and is still there.It is not at all uncommon for the moisture to continue to build up ice for three or four weeks until there is finally a thaw that lets it come down in liquid form. I have seen ice two inches thick on the inside of rof sheathing from inproper or inadequarte venting and VGB installation.
It is aalso very common to find the problem on only one side of the roof - north side, especially if it was near the source of moisture, such as a bathroom or kitchemn or they had the heater under that side. It sounds like they have done almost everything wrong here. No plastic VB there. Punched holes in the space with the wrong can lights. Added moisture to the climate and forced it thru the lights with the draft, and the ventilation is minimal at best. Needs a sq ft of vent for every 150 sg ft of living space.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Welcome to BT.
I've seen many problems with filled-in garage door openings. Enough, that I usually put a control joint at that point just to prevent this sort of thing from showing up. That doesn't mean it's not moisture and heat realted--just an observation on the joints.
Given where you are seeing condensation, I'd suspect the exterior floor joint in the garage door opening. I'd guess there's a low spot on the old garage "lip" that is letting wind infiltrate into the new cavity. That's a guess, but it sounds likely.
I'd also be tempted to recommend another supplemental heat source, like an electric one (one of the oil-filled 'radiators,' for instanc) that would not add humidity. Add some air circualtion, like a ceiling fan, to "draw in" some of the adjacent heated air, too.
Note, that's "tempted," Andy C will be a lot more familiar with the local conditions than I.