I am working on the design of a new summer home. The 9’ first floor has 1,700 sq ft with a great (kitchen, dining and living) room and study on one side and a master bedroom, utility and bathrooms on the other. The 8’ second floor has 700 sq ft for two bedrooms, bath and hallway. About three quarters of the great room cathedrals to the gable roof, with a few feet of overlook from the second floor hallway.
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Half the builders I know think the cathedral ceiling is a great feature, particularly in a summer home. The other half think it’s a passé idea that wastes both potential living space and heating / cooling energy, especially with a 9’ ceiling, and complicates lighting, fans, HVAC, speakers, etc.
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Except for a small study, I’ve never had a cathedral ceiling. In the ones I’ve been in, I’ve barely stayed aware of the extra height once I got comfortable. I’m told that a cathedral does cost more to build than open space and it doesn’t cost much more to fill in, so I don’t think it’s a money issue. I’m looking for opinions on this one. Thanks.
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Replies
It's an architectural whirlpool tub.
Edited 8/14/2007 4:42 pm by DanH
I like cathedrals in the right place.
It does cost more to do it.
I am not sure what you mean about not to fill it in. Why would you build it if you are going to fill it in later?
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It was a bad choice of words. What I meant to say is that I am told that just because it is open space, a cathedral ceiling is not "free"; the extra framing for the cathedral costs about half of what it would cost if the space was fully framed in at construction time. The area in question is 384 sq ft, so in rough numbers, the diffence in price would be around 200 times the average cost per sq ft.
What I meant by "in the right place" was the right architectural situation where solar gain and windows are right, and it fits the overall style.Framing is more expensive. Whoever told you fifty percent as much was dead wrong.To begin with, you need a structural ridge to support the rafters.
Then in many homes where a 2x8, or a 2x6 would work for rafters, you likely need a 2x12 rafter even when that is overkill for structure - because you need the depth for insulation and ventilation - or you will be framing this with exposed stylized beams. Simply put, the 2x12 is more expensive than the 2x6 and the ridge beam is more expensive than a ridge board.Labor can be considerably more too, from staging time to erect to finishing time for the surface material, whether sheetrock or decorative lumber.It will also be modestly more expensive to heat.
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A very major difficulty with a cathedral ceiling is handling insulation and ventillation. Standard attic insulation techniques work poorly at best. Either you end up giving up a lot of the cathedral effect with scissor trusses (and still having a poor compromise), or you have to use some sort of "hot roof" technique (which, while probably perfectly adequate if properly done is often unfamiliar to framers, roofers, and inspectors).
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
What do you mean by "in the right place"? In my case, it would be over the kitchen, island and living room seating area.
I keep getting told that to get a little extra height in limited areas it's cheaper to do a trey ceiliing than a cathedral.
Our recent great room/kitchen/mbr addition has a cathedral ceiling about 25 feet from floor to peak, with a windowed cupola at the top. It cost a bundle to frame, plaster, paint, etc. Every time I walk into the room, I smile. Whatever we spent is spent and I don't regret a penny. Houses are more than just for keeping the weather out. For what it's worth, on really hot days, opening the cupola windows gets a nice airflow going and keeps the heat down.
I assume the term "cathedral" comes from the typical church architecture. A well designed cathedral ceiling in a house can provide a bit of the same drama as one experiences upon entering a real cathedral.
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Very nice and good proportions which is key with volume spaces.
As far as the heating/cooling argument, the space would be more effectively heated, but cooling can be a challenge.
cooling can be a challenge.
In Maine, most of us get by without AC. Summers are short and winters are long, so we sort of savor the hot days.
Same here in Michigan, not enough warm days imo, I can live with the heat just thinking winter is around the corner!
That is beautifully done, congratulations! Context and scale is everything.In my experience, though, cathedral ceilings are usually a PITA -- not high enough to be really grand, just high enough to be pretentious, and too high to be easily cleaned. A cathedral window in a kitchen is going to be a magnet for grease, grime, and dead bugs, unless the HO is much more anal about keeping it clean than I would likely be.
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Thanks. It has been a fun project, for the most part. We had the existing space to live in while the construction proceeded.
A cathedral window in a kitchen is going to be a magnet for grease, grime, and dead bugs
Probably would be. Our kitchen has a low ceiling, but is open to the rest of the space with the cathedral ceiling/cupola. The kitchen ceiling is lower than we'd like, about 7'6" but we were trying to match the level of the bedroom floor above to the existing part of the house to avoid a step between the two. Since the kitchen is open and has lots of windows, the low ceiling doesn't feel too cramped.
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Edited 8/15/2007 12:57 pm ET by smslaw
I built a number of chalet style homes in the Poconos, back in the 70s. They have more charm, warmth, whatever-ya-call-it, than standard framing but they weren't very practical then and are less so, now that heating a cooling are more expensive.
I also built one large cathedral ceiling home of my own design, for a neighbor. It is now some kind of dinosaur, due to energy prices.
It would probably help you to check out the Green Building folder, here on BT. There are several good alternatives, currently being discussed there. Ways to build timber frames with SIPs as an example.
"due to energy prices."Not terribly accurate. I have read a couple studies/reports on the subject and the summation is that it does cost more to change the temperature of the volumn - say to heat it up from 44° to 70° because there is more volumn, but when it comes to maintaining a constant temperature, the formulae are far more dependent on surface area and how well insulated those surface ares are than on how much volumn is being maintained at a given temperature.
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Yeah, the volume has relatively little to do with energy costs -- it's the surface area and the insulation efficiency that are the major factors.The main way that volume comes into play is when you have to overheat/cool one area to maintain comfortable conditions in another area, due to air stratification.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
(And in one sense the cathedral ceiling can help, since it makes ceiling fans more practical and attractive.)
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Good clarification. I started to write about the low R value in the 2" of foam that was applied over homasote but figured that he'd learn more on that subject by reading about SIPs.
70% of our main floor are actual cathedrals. Controlling cooling and benefiting heating is primarily done by metal.....Metal shingled roof....no need to vent....even in humid central NC where it's been 103 today.....2 x10's provided ample depth for basic fiberglass.....whole house is skinned in 1/2" poly sheets.....radiant barrier coating on exterior walls....low-e glazing on basic dual pane insulated windows
I balanced cost by using 8' perimeter walls on the main and upper floors and put cathedrals everywhere I had the opportunity...including the upstairs bedrooms.....the only attic space is over the joining pass thru bath area where the upstairs HVAC blower resides. 1' lower walls meant fewer stair treads, less trim, less drywall, less paint, less copper wire to lights, less outer insulation, less osb and siding, less of everything height wise helped balance the cost of the ceilings. The great room is the largest including the upstairs catwalk is 20' x 28' and starts at 8' and climbs to 21'. The focal wall is on the outside 8' giving a more intimate cozier feel while seated and then soars as you enter and leave the room.
"All space is conditioned.......74 in summer and 70 in winter...4600 sq. ft. total power and LP gas for all of last year was less than $2000 including 6 computers that run 24/7.
No cold or hot spots.....no rising heat problems.....heat doesn't appreciably rise in a 21 ft. high room unless it's incredibly leaky and drafty...what little rise occurs is taken in by two return vents in the central part of the house at the top of the cathedral.....that air is then conditioned and returned to the main levels floor registers.
Pedro - the Mule looking for a zipline...in the house......
Went back and forth with the designer today, then finally decided to cathedral the study, which is under the low end of the gable, and frame in the great room. This added 384 sq ft to the living space, now defined as another bedroom and a loft that overlooks the study. While it does simplify the roof structure, it does appear to necessitate more structural support for the floor over the great room.
Thanks for the opinions.
What is that span? It can probably be trussed for that living space above and avoid heavy beams or posts in the great room below.
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> Half the builders I know think the cathedral ceiling is a great
> feature, particularly in a summer home. The other half think it’s
> a passé idea that wastes both potential living space and heating /
> cooling energy, especially with a 9’ ceiling, and complicates
> lighting, fans, HVAC, speakers, etc.
I put in a cathedral ceiling in the kitchen of my old house and installed one in my wife's studio in this house. As far as I'm concerned, the expense is not an issue - you have to live with the result, and that lasts a lot longer than today's credit card bill.
For those that think it's passe, tell them not to put it in their house and to shut up about yours.
How does it "waste" living space? Do you really think some one is going to use that slanted room upstairs with a 4' tall ceiling?
As far a heating/cooling energy is concerned, yes the room will take more energy to heat, but it will take less energy to cool. Put in a ceiling fan, and things will be fine. My wife's studio had much wider swings of temperature before I did the work than after. We no longer need an air conditioner in there (I removed a big 220 unit). We use an 1100 watt ceramic heater in there in winter. The difference is that it would stay in the 40s with the thing full on before, and now stays toasty at half the thermostat setting. New insulation and a ceiling fan is certainly part of the equation.
It does complicate electrical work for lighting, fans, and speakers. Hire someone who has some intelligence and knows how to plan this. Don't change your mind halfway through. Sounds to me like the critics you're talking to are 40 watt bulbs in this regard. In my case, the ceiling fan wiring is completely hidden, and I've seen lots of fan wiring run exposed along beams. I am having problems figuring out how to get some CAT-5 wiring in now, but I'll figure it out.
As far as HVAC is concerned, it's only a complication if you can't run the HVAC under the floor. If you have to run this overhead, a cat ceiling will be a BIG problem. That could be a deal breaker.