Took a break from work today to help my Uncle with his old house. We are repairing and restoring a lot of the outside. After 90 years, it is time for some help. One thing that struck me is how well the structure has held-up to Puget Sound weather.
This got me to wondering:
Do we rely too much on caulk?
I’m sure we’ve all heard the adage, “plaster and paint make what a carpenter ain’t.”
Is it now the same with caulk? I have seen siding jobs that seemed to be only an excuse to get as much caulk as possible on the house.
My Uncle’s house has NO caulk and it seems to be doing fine.
Have we forgot to “think like a raindrop?”
Is caulk becoming a crutch? Perhaps it is justified economically. Caulk allows us to seal and shortcut some labor intensive details and it does help air movement for energy efficiency.
But.
What would we do if caulk supplies dry-up like abs and pvc have in the last few days. (at least somewhat around here)
How would we approach building? What techniques could be used?
Would we have to hire caulkers, y’know, the guy that pounds oakum into ship’s hulls?
Thinking out loud I guess.
Maybe I should take less time off.
Terence
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Excellent point. What are the exterior details, etc on your uncle's house that you feel added to it's longevity? How is the exterior of the building envelope constructed? - in other words what is it: diagonal 1x6 sheathing covered with black felt paper covered with horizontal cedar lap siding? Was it painted or what? How is it detailed around the windows and doors as far as trim? corner boards? etc etc. What parts/details did seem problematic and require repair? Maybe they relyed more on design details (like wide overhangs) and less on stuff like caulk...
I guess the theory is that if a house is properly wrapped and flashed, then caulk should be optional and maybe more of a cosmetic item?
I guess the theory is that if a house is properly wrapped and flashed, then caulk should be optional and maybe more of a cosmetic item?
Nonsense!
blue
That is what he was insinuating. Like I said - a theory - just trying to learn something here.
Matt, the theory is nonsense.
Caulk is the perfect bridge for products that move due to expansion and contraction. If you seal out the elements, you probably won't be dealing with bug infestation, air movement and mold.
Obviously the need for all of these elements are more critical in some regions than others.
I'm kinda tired of all the hype surrounding the use of secondary weather protection. I'm a firm believer that you don't need secondary weather protection if you do your homework on the first layer of weather protection.
Im not a tyvek fan, nor do I see any need for wrapping windows. maybe my opinions have been formed because I've set thousands of wood window with brick molds and there aren't any ways to put a window wrap over a wood window. The time tested method of stopping water from migrating behind the window is a good paint skin, then a good application of caulk that binds to the paint and to the siding or brick.
Caulk is the answer, not secondary wrap which is literally peppered with holes for either brick ties or siding nails.
blue
I became a Tyvek fan when we used it residing our house: various obvious measures of infiltration such as the air blowing out of electrical outlets were vastly improved. Of course, we also did a much better job of caulking than the builder did originally.On the wood windows, we carefully taped the Tyvek to the window frames.One added benefit of our work is that we have a much less severe problem with Japanese lady beetles than any of my wife's friends. So far as we can tell, the only ones that get into the house are the ones that "ride" in on our clothes.As has been said several times, the main purpose of Tyvek is as an infiltration barrier -- something that one appreciates when it's 20 below and the wind's blowing 25mph from the northwest.
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<<<<wood window with brick molds and there aren't any ways to put a window wrap over a wood window. The time tested method of stopping water from migrating behind the window is a good paint skin, then a good application of caulk that binds to the paint and to the siding or brick.>>>>
BS !
i don't care how many you've installed that way.. they were wrong.. and the problem is that a lot of people look to you for advice, you build anice looking house.
but caulk is a transplant from commercial construction.. with curtain walls and drainage plains.. and aluminum frames caulked to masonry..
a window opening has splines, a pan flash, and a head flash.. those are what keep the water out.. not caulk
now i'm going back to the couchMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
those are what keep the water out.. not caulk
Well Mike, please explain why we aren't having trouble here in Michigan even though zillions of wood windows are/have been installed for decades without splines (I don't know what that is), pan flash (never saw one) or head flash (never saw one). The only thing we use is caulk and so far it's doing quite well. The caulk only goes on the outside too.
Just for the record, the Tyvek rep told me that Tyvek tape does NOT stick to wood.
blue
He is right. Tyvek tape is meant to stick Tyvek to Tyvek, sealing up laps, etc.
But, I taped my mouse cord to the bottom of a wood desk with Tyvek tape. It held for several years until I got a cordless mouse.
It is hard to argue with your success in Michigan, but I would not be comfortable with a paint skin and caulk to seal water out of typically vulnerable places.
Tyvek tape does stick to paint, though.--------------
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don't know..... except maybe since you're a framing sub , you never get the call in 5 years when they start to leak..
caulk is to hold paint... to give you a paintable surface..
flashing is to keep water out.. don't confuse the newbies with your cross-dressing
here's how you install a WOODEN window...
pan flash the sill with membrane or metal.. spline the sides with doubled 15# felt
lap the top with 15# felt
install the window... nail it thru the casing..
now install a head flash ( metal ) over the head casing..
modern windows with nailing flanges are installed the same way..
that's how they've been installed since they started building windows with applied casings... probably 70 years ago..
before that the sub-casing was installed with the window in the same plane as the board sheathing
caulk is just a go-fast substitute for doing it rightMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
you know Mike,
watching you chastize Blue reminds me of something I have thought about often.
there are somethings I will, and will not do.
when commenting on the things I will NOT do----I am sometimes told --in effect---I am being too finicky or too particular---or just foolish." I have done it that way many times and never had a problem" I am told
But----I often notice that the people telling me this----worked for a while in one city-----moved to another state for a while---then another etc.--- Their travels have let them leave their mistakes behind. working as an employee for various contractors----or working as a sub------let's you accomplish the same thing---to a certain extent.
BUT----if you work entirely under your own name---in the same locale for the same customer base for a generation or more-----you become very finicky about the way you do things------because as you do them you are thinking about the ramifications to yourself, your wallet , your reputation---5,10,20 years in the future.
none of this is aimed at ANYONE in particular-----
But in Blues' situation---he is never gonna suffer the consequences that you or I would----------
If the consumer complained 5 or 10 years down the road---his GC may or may not be in business---even if he IS in business----the house is out of warranty---so the builder doesn't care----and the builder likely uses several different framing subs----he probably doesn't remember or even care that Blue set the windows------
But YOU would care---and I would care---because our name is on the line in that neighborhood----and we want to sell that customer new roofing this year--and new siding 5 years from now---and a new door---or a new kitchen---what ever.
You and Blue are playing 2 different games----you are MUCH more likely to be held accountable for your actions.
I do think Blue is right about one thing 'though-------no one wants to do simple routine mainenance anymore-----and many old fashioned materials---if properly maintained---will outlast the newer " maintenance free" versions.
Best wishes all, Stephen
gaarrssh, stephen..... when do you nominate me for sainthood ?
to me, blue's window installation reflects local practise, what is commonly accepted..
and as he says, if you renew the caulk every year, it might even work..
it just won't be acceptable in any window installation "how-to" manual i've ever seen
and i do have a deep respect for blue's work...
i think it means he's working without supervision from the GC... and the GC's he's working for don't know how to flash a house or build for the long pull..or, perhaps , if they want to stay in business, they build what they have to build
i've seen the same thing come into Rhode Island in the '80's... the tract sub-divisions are not built the same way as custom homes
when job's are bid by the square foot this is what you get... the framer dictates the quality and the methods of construction..
that being said.. i do want you to know.. i'd be bankrupt on the first house i tried to frame at Blue's price... if you doubled his price, i could maybe do it....
so.. in a competitive framing market, perhaps you get what you pay for..
i know i can't compete at those price levels.. i can't compete with new home builders around here..not even close..
but , the ones around here can't deliver the same custom work that we do, their crews and methods won't let them slow down and pay attention to detailMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Good reply.
Although I don't build as much as I do home restoration, repair and renovation, like you, I could not afford to stay in business at the tract home builders prices. But, because of their techniques and their non finishing, a lot of my work is to be called in afterwards to undo things (mostly left undone), and finish it up right...at my prices.
Mike,
with the possible exceptions of Calvin and/or Jim Blodgett-------
I haven't met too many saints around here. LOL
that said----thanking you in person this summer for all the help you have given me over the years was a real accomplishment for me.
BTW----there are guys like Blue in My trade as well that I can't compete against either------------------ that's why I decided to play an entirely different game.
Best wishes, all-----Stephen
Stephen, I do the same as a sub that I do as a builder. I've built stuff for myself and have done exactly as I speak. I don't have two standards.
No one can tell me that it's critical to have an elaborate window wrap using wood windows. If water is getting behind the brick molds of windows, somethings going to rot. If water is somehow getting back behind there, I'd rather find out quickly because the interior drywall started bubbling. I could then start the discovery process and fix the external leak before the entire wall succumbed to mold issues.
No one here is using housewrap that self seals nail holes. There are literally thousand of nail holes everywhere in the wrap system, including the window areas. Becuase of those weaknesses in their system, I think it would behoove them to find a way to seal out the water before it got behind the siding and windows.
Caulk is the answer if done right.
I don't think caulking before painting is the right choice. I personally won't do it, nor would I allow it.
blue
caulk is to hold paint... to give you a paintable surface..
Not true Mike!
I've never seen a house caulked till after it's been painted.
I wouldn't do it anyother way. I'm not going to let water get behind the exterior skin. The exterior skin is the latex paint and caulk.
It's worked fine.
We do install a metal drip if the window is in siding and doesn't have a substantial (12" over hang) over it. I've had some superintendent insist on the metal drip even with a brick lintel over it, which I find to be ludicrous. The only thing the metal drip does in those cases is make it more difficult to get an excellent caulk seal. But alas, I only do what I'm told.
blue
Caulking should be done after the first coat of paint, or after the raw surfaces are primed. Caulking unprimed wood is a surefire way to get caulk failure.
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Hey blue,
Just for the record, the Tyvek rep told me that Tyvek tape does NOT stick to wood. Maybe they have improved it since you talked with that rep. I've had Tyvek tape stuck to bare wood for a couple of years now. It has great adhesion.
kestrel
Kestrel, it was explained to me that the tyvek tape bonded to materials at the molecular level and that it couldn't bond with real wood.
It could possibly bond with a painted wood product as mentioned above, but I'd be leery about sticking it to something that is only primed. The primed wood doesn't have that skin that is so critical to a good seal.
blue
"Kestrel, it was explained to me that the tyvek tape bonded to materials at the molecular level and that it couldn't bond with real wood."Is that as opposed to at the superstring theory level?... LOL
Kestrel, it was explained to me that the tyvek tape bonded to materials at the molecular level and that it couldn't bond with real wood.
It may not bond, but you said it didn't stick to wood. It sticks well, but in most instances it would be used to seal vertical Tyvek joints, so the type of adhesion to wood is not terribly important.
kestrel
" The trick I think, is to do tight carpentry, (metaphorically speaking), that uses just the right amount of caulk. But you knew that."
Resubmitted
Tom
just the right amount of caulk.
True. Usually the right amount of caulk is fairly substantial. It needs to be substantial enough to strectch and have flexibility. The guys fitting all the siding tight are actually practicing poor carpentry but I'd be some sort of carpentry god if I could make them understand that.
blue
Actually, the right amount of caulk is NOT "fairly substantial". The depth of the caulk in the joint should be controlled so that the caulk can remain flexible. Deeply stuffing the joint with caulk produces a stiffer bead that is more prone to separation.But if you meant that the gap between surfaces should be wide enough (approx 3/16") to allow for a reasonable bead of caulk, that's true (for essentially the same reason -- flexibility).--------------
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Edited 11/2/2005 5:31 pm by DanH
This old house is fir. Fir inside, fir outside. They had a LOT of fir.The interior is planked with 1x12 T&G. Then they stretched linen over that with tacks. A couple of coats of sizing and then wall paper. The exterior is similar.1x6 (true 1x6,)and 1x8 shiplap with cove profile. Some tarpaper underneath but mostly details that shed water. Drip edges routed under all horizontal surfaces, and overhangs and trim that took advantage of gravity. There was some flashing that had rotted away under the original shake roof but since the shakes were replaced in '86 with asphalt I don't know how they performed.The balloon studs are about 18" apart. I say about because they vary by as much as 1.5". It just didn't matter then.The old girl has been standing since '16 and I must say without shearwalls it really moves during an earthquake. Being from Calif, Earthquakes are oldhat but when we had the shaker in '98 I was upstairs. That was interesting. So, we are just going to mimic the construction technique for the most part using 15# paper under the siding and being careful with flashing the openings. We have used foam, mostly to get rid of all the little areas that make such great spider and wasp holes.The siding and trim is being replaced with cedar instead of fir. Its being primed with some amazing stuff from Kelly Moore.
Trying to avoid caulk unless we can see where it would really benefit but so far hasn't been needed. Cheers,
Terence
I agree that caulk is used too much and you have valid points. Flashing and doing other things to keep the water out in the first place is best. Caulk eventually fails. Also, I have seen a lot of caulk applied in such a way that it keeps any water that does get in from getting back out. (Like lower edge of storm windows.) I've repaired lots of rot caused by caulk in the wrong places.
Caulk eventually fails.
Caulk should be inspected and renewed (when necessary) every year. If you do that, your exterior cauld will NEVER fail.
blue
I can buy that--but how many homeowners will do that, or hire someone else to do it? I am supposed to oil my wind up clocks every year--haven't done it yet (2 + years I've owned them).
We caulked when we resided about 11 years ago, then repainted last year. There were only 2-3 small areas that needed touch-up on the caulking.Modern caulks, carefully applied, are good for ten years at least.
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I can buy that--but how many homeowners will do that
If the homeowner cares about his house, he will do that.
I really don't care if some homeowners don't do that. They'll suffer the consequences and some remodeler will have a nice repair job.
Most big builders include a clause in their warranty book that explains that the homeowner is responsible for regular maintenance and caulk falls into that category. If the homeowner fails to maintain it, then the warranties are void. With todays caulk, it's no big deal. You might have to touch up one spot on the entire house every ten years.
blue
Yep, years ago I was installing vinyl siding on a tract home in which other crews had done the frame and cornice.
An old painter remarked....."Damn, I remember when the carpenters used to build homes...now we just caulk them together."
We did do some frame and cornice for this builder. Big buider, 125 + homes per sub-division. I had never seen the builder, only his super. One day, this large black Mercedes rolls up. The driver honks and calls me over, telling me he ws the company owner, and he and others had noticed that our work was outstanding. He said he would like for me and my crew to do all of the model homes in his subdivisions. I declined as we were only filling time between better paying projects. True story.
I am sure the offer was made in part because of issues noted in this post.
Be faithful in the little things, and God will give you charge over greater things.
Quanity comes with quality. Do to others, as you would have them do to you. I am now a preferred custom home builder.
One argument FOR caulk is that it also prevents air infiltration...
Yep, the purpose of caulk, IMO, is to prevent air infiltration and, to a degree, wind-blown rain. Never rely on it to prevent normal water leakage (except in a few special areas such as under a threshold).
That said, a good caulking job on an otherwise properly put together house can greatly extend the lifetime of many rot-prone areas. This becomes more important as insulation improves, since water that gets into the shell has a harder time getting out.
One thing to keep in mind is that the quality of caulk has improved dramatically in the past 50 years. 50 years ago about all you had was a paint/clay mixture that would harden quickly and crack. It was only used as a gap filler. There was no way it would provide any sort of long-lasting water resistance. Then the silicone and latex caulks came along, but they didn't weather well and adhesion was poor.
But modern caulks are much, much better -- great flexible, good adhesion, good resistance to UV and mildew. They permit building practices that simply couldn't be done even 30 years ago.
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Just slow down everyone! I'm still stuck on trying to think like a raindrop.
Lmao
You're trying too hard, just let it flow! (Raindrops don't have very deep thoughts.)
I was once told to "become one with the nailgun" and was told by the same guy that only happened after you'd shot yourself at least twice with one. I have foregone that cosmic and enlightening experience so far. One down, at least one to go before I'm one with the nailgun.
You guys are too funny... I guess I'm one with the nail gun :-) You can always tell who isn't by where they put their other hand when the pull the trigger ;-)
hmm, could be a variation on that old saying about motorcycle riders coming in two types..those who have gone down & those who will...
People come in three types, those who can count, and those who can't.People come in 10 types, those who understand binary, and those who don't.
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