I had a guy install clear white cedar shingles “A”‘s
He did not space the shingles in most places, some areas have 6′ in a row of shingled not spaced at all.
I know this is not correct , but I would like to know if this is a definite problem, or just a possible problem. He says he is sure they will be fine, but will replace if there is a problem.
I’m supplying materials at $34/bundle, and he is only labor. Do I just replace, or let it go and see what happens?
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Replies
Pull them up and start over with at least 1/2 inch gap between each one.
They swell when they get wet . They need to air dry with out setting up mold and spacing is important. Also at least 1/2 inch is needed for cleaning them at pine needles and leaves stick in them and collects dust that makes mud.
I maintain 75 sg of them myself. I also installed them. But never again,.....
Tim
Tim, you're kidding, right? I've never seen cedar shingles with a half inch gap.
PearceServices, I've installed a lot of cedar shingles and have always installed with no gap. The shingles in the bundles aren't completely dry and will shrink when they're installed and have their large drying areas exposed. You'll end up with gaps in a few days (some as large as a quarter inch). When they get wet they will expand but only to the point where the gaps will decrease but they won't buckle.
So try waiting a few days and see if the shingles dry and shrink.
Nope , Im not kidding .
Have you ever had to clean 75 sq or more every year from leaves and pine needles?
Tim
Edited 12/16/2005 8:02 am by Mooney
OK, I see, you assumed roof and I assumed walls. I was wondering why pine needles would stick to a wall... ;-)
Yup , I assumed roof .
I clean this roof with an air blower hooked to three compressors running all together linked to one hose for the air nozzle. Ive got some gaps that are closed and I have to manually lift the shingles to clen under them which is a pos . 1/2 inch allows the blower to clean from a pole which makes the job much simpler, but still a hard job on a 12/12 pitch roof. 100 psi is needed constant to do the job. Real POS job it is . If I had the same roof with no exposure Im afraid I would burn it <G>
Ill post pics in the next post as popup is on and it needs refreshed.
Tim
Hers a shot
Mooney, Those are shakes not shingles.
Yessir they are , lol.
Tim
Thanks for your humor and not being sensitive. I was in a technical mood!
"Thanks for your humor and not being sensitive. I was in a technical mood!"
Aint botherin me . <G>
I put um on, on DWs instructions but next time she can put them on . I learned that from Gunner or to quote she puts on half of them and helps with the cleaning . Will never happen. Ill be saved by the bell.
I wanted to buy some reject plywood or shall say mis sized 3x5 sheets and nail it over the lathing . Then cover it with Arhitectural shingles and it would have been history and a lot cheaper.
Thread wasnt clear and instantly hit a personal nerve as I hate them with an unlikely passion. So I jumped on it before I got info from my hate developed from cleaning them. It was fun putting them on after I fired the roofer that did the garage in the foggy pic as he didnt hold true the gaps. I hired Brother to help me and fired him too or should say he had had enough after I made him replace a days work paid on mis gaps. So I didnt even tell it all. But he did know about the 1/2 inch from working on Marthas Vineyard close to Piffin and the replacement he had done working on them.
Yes, 3/8s would have worked as Piffin stated but he[bro] cautioned the job in cleaning them. If there had been no trees then I wouldnt have cared in the end other than what Mike mentioned . Shakes look like a pos after 10 years. I replaced the shakes that were 15 yrs old at the time and water had worn them out with the pine needels packed under them as the roof had never been cleaned I didnt think. If it had been cleaned no one had lifted them in cleaning .
Wood shingles? ? I dont have a clue other than it would have been a slicker surface which couldnt have hurt as I think the small splinters catch the leaves and the needles. My guess is every year more splinters come to the surface after the water washes away a small amount of the soft wood and leaves grain which stands to reason why after a while they look bad.
I kept them clear sealed for the first 6 years coating them three times @ 50 gallons per event. I tired as it took close to 40 hrs to clean and seal. Then I got sick and couldnt do it . This spring I will fight them again with some help.
Cant do anything but laugh about it now . <G> She dont want no trees cut . Ugh. Still cheaper to keep her . <G> Mebbe better that she keep me if I can get that roof cleaned and sealed. Im reminded at least 12 times a year.
Tim
And perhaps a bit more than being technical. I am not sure, but I do believe the installation of shingles and shakes are different. I am pretty sure shakes are installed with 1/2 inch or more spacing as you stated. Shingles? Not sure.
Then again for this thread it is all relavant since it is about walls not roofs. LOL.
better shot
Yikes! Great looking roof but I see where you're coming from now. Have fun!
I am not an expert and maintain 0 sq of cedar shingles.
Based on what I see in a nearby historic district with lots of cedar roofs, something like 1/4" spacing is normal for ventilation. many of these roofs are in the 25+ yr age and are going strong.
My BIL who owns one of the historic homes just had a new roof put on, very long/thick shingles, over purlins. Installation involved a lot of tar paper strips between courses and 1/8" to 1/4" gaps between shingles when installed. The very-much-in-demand installer claims that the roof should be good for 40+ years.
JIm
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Are these on a roof....or a wall?
these are walls, not a big job, 3 square, shady area with minimal sunlight
Are these on a roof....or a wall?
What made you ask that question? What clue did you have ? <G>
Tim
Actually, I didn't have a clue 'cause the OP didn't specify.
But, to answer your question, it's rare to see a new cedar shingle roof here in the West anymore....I think mostly it's both a wildfire issue and the difficulty in getting good quality old growth, tight grained shingles that will hold up.
The other issue is the spacing; on sidewalls, we usually butt them tight. If I was to do a roof with cedar shingles, I would probably gap them a little bit....certainly not 1/2 inch...or even a 1/4".
Incidently, I "feel your pain" with cleaning the roof. I recently finished a custom with several dormers with 12/12 pitches and a lot of Doug fir trees around. (We roofed with Malarkey high-wind 50 year laminated shingles with cut valleys. The tree needle accumulation is going to be a long term maintenance issue for the HO. Personally, I don't care for the look of metal valleys, but they would be an asset on this particular house.
check out this site -- http://www.cedar-training.org/#
Mooney's advice doesn't mean anything on this one answer, because he is talking shakes on roofs which is a whole different animal entirely from shingles on walls.
on a roof, it depends how wet the shingles are when laid and what the climate is. The aim is to have 3/16" spaces in normal circimstances. Sometimes that means laying them snug from the beginning and letting them dry. other times it means laying to that gapping. It is judgement and experience. A roof laid too tight will absorb water, swell, and the shingles will end up standing up and waving hello at you or masqueradiong as humpback whales.
Walls are another story alltogether. it is rare for a wall to have enopugh water sit on it long enmough for the shingles to swell enough to notice. I always lay walls snug.
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You are right about how wet shingles are at installation determines gap.I've found the best way to control this is to keep a 500 gal. stock tank filled with water on site. there is enough volume to keep 6 bdls. of #1 sawns submerged. pull out & replace as you use them & lay 'em tight. I've laid hundreds of squares over the yrs using this method on everything from geodesic domes to Nat'l Register buildings & never had a problem with shrink/ swell buckling. By the way learned this 35+ yrs ago from a then old Finnish carpenter who had 50 + yrs of work behind him !! Aint this a great trade !!!
personally, i'd rather not cvarry that extra ten or fifteen pounds of water up the ladder with me, especially not when it's frozen!;)
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just did a wall with them butted tight,, they were soon painted and they didn't swell. I like the idea of soaking them unless the home owner doesn't want a gap between them when they dry out
Aww you know when we were young that 10 or 15 lbs. didn't matter a whit, but as we age (& smarten up a little) what an opportunity for the concept of Apprenticeship to be employed. Ya know what I mean??? Up here we always say "If your shingles freeze in the horse tank it's time to shoot yourself in the head !"
zonds lyke U quit larnin' from dee olde man and now U R dee olde man, yah?
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Yeah, this a great trade, and that's a great tip. Thanks.
Why lay a shake roof so close together ?
Tim
You misunderstand. shakes should be laid with ave 3/8" gaps. It is shingles that lay closer
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Ill keep my 1/2 inch thank you since Im the dude blowing 75sq off which as you can see Im behind.
You know Bob said somthing here the other day that codes didnt mean much when they dont solve the problems . Yall can space roof shakes 1/4 all day for years and years and feel mushy about it all any one wants to or jam them tight , I dont care . You dont appreciate a wood roof at all after youve cleaned one . Real expensive POS.
Tim
How about cuting down a few pine trees?
Thats a good idea cutting a few trees but it would more resemble logging . They are everywhere . We are the home of the Southern Yellow Pine and we didnt get to be the home with out being covered with them.
Still a good idea but costly in a residental hood.
Tim
I've always thought that handsplits are just a decorative way of holding strips of 30# felt on a roof. Sawn shingles will give a solid 50 yrs of service if put on properly,including skip sheathing or shingle u.l. & attention to gapping.I'm pretty sure our forefathers didn't spend much time blowing their roofs off. The biggest enemy of a wood roof is shade in my opinion.Do some "selective cutting" & problem solved.
Did that roof look good to you ?
Thats what you get if you dont clean it . I think our forefathers didnt give a sh^t is all or didnt have the tools we do. Or both.
Actually pine needles eat cedar if they are allowed to stay wet.
Tim
couple things i noticed..
first WC " A's " .... the only grqades i've seen in WC is "Extra", "Clear" , or "#2"
Extra is also referred to as "blue label" and clears are also referred to as "red label"
on sidewall.. butt them tight side to side with a minimum of one inch stagger joints from course to course for 3 courses
on roofs... 1/4" gap with the same stagger for 3 courses..
the only time you need to "wet " shingles is if you are trying to bend them
BTW... IMNSHO... WC on a roof are a waste of time and money..
RC would be the correct choice... but only if you were trying for historic correctness would you use WC.... and...they wouldn't be historically correct in most cases either... modern shingles are too uniform, too thin..
other than that ... i think wood shingles and wood shake roofs are a waste of time and money... and they all look like crap after 10 years anyways...
but hey, whadda i no ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks for the responses, I learned alot about this subject.
the shingles were "clear" white, I don't know where I got the "A" from.
I am going to leave the job as is and keep an eye on the gap.
other than that ... i think wood shingles and wood shake roofs are a waste of time and money... and they all look like crap after 10 years anyways...
Yup. Unless they are cleaned and stained . But then that is a big waste of time and money.
Wood shingles and shakes arent too bright a move . They make good shims I guess.
Tim
Edited 12/18/2005 2:10 am by Mooney
look, tim.... you don't HAVE to agree with me....
it's usually more fun when you don't....Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I realize its more fun, but we just cant have a party over this one .
Tim
You been cleaning that roof too much and not cleaning your own glasses old man!;)I said 3/8" for shakes, not 1/4", and I'll even give you an eighth if it's that impportant to you yto get you all worked up like this. but just slow down, re-read, and notice that there is a difference here in the wood shingles subject of this thread and the wood shakes you been talking about.Love ya anyway. Com'here and lean in close to the screen so I can blow in your ear and blow the sawdust out so you can here if you can't see.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
LOL, I should have addressed it to all.
Tim