I have done a few cedar shingling jobs and they have come out great, the oldest now being 5 years old, and the shingles look fine. A few split ones but nothing to write home about. Recently though a friend said you should never put up shingles wih a pneumatic nail gun b/c the impact of the nail will “invisibly” split the shingle and it will have a greater propensity to split in the future. Is this guy for real? I mean, if the shingle didn’t split when originally put up with a pneumatic nailer, will it in the future, just by virtue of being nailed in by compressed air versus hand power? Seems like just by nailing in the shingle, by hand or gun, it can cause an “invisible” fault line that the shingle would split on later. If that is the case then all my shingles on all my past jobs are going to split and I’m in the doghouse. Better throw in the towel now while I still have my shirt. thoughts?
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He is right, but it's niot enough to loose sleep over. If you study the literature that comes with the shingles or look at the Cedar institues web site, you can see a drawing of the correct way to drive a nail, so that the hhead is frimly in contact with the top plane of the wood, holding it down, but not driven home like you do in other situations. The wider head of the nail, driven tight into the wood will encourage splitting, and the extra pressure forcing it to the sheathing will inhibit the movement that is required as the wood expands and contracts with moisture changes. Set the depth of drive on your gun so it is not flush setting the nail all the way tight.
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Understood. So what are your thoughts on stapling up siding shingles?
On my house or yours?;)I don't like it. More often than not, the installer letts the crown set too deep and splinters the wood. I can be mroe forgiving on siding because it sheds water and dries faster than a roof does. I had one sub that I allowwed it with because he is a very carefull meticulous sort of fellow, and he used a helper to align them so he could staple twin mating edges with one staple most of the time - with wide crowns.
Other guys - I ahve seen them use narrow crowns and a row of shingles ends up looking like some hack from the hood had run along the wall with a sharp straight claw hamer going rata taptrap vandalism. Those guys don't work on my jobs.
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I have installed lierally acres of sidewall shingles with a 1/4" crown staple and have never had a problem. In fact I was just inspecting a job that I did 18 months ago for the local contractor "wanna be". Despite the fact that he never painted the job[ relied on the factory primer, no top coat] it looks prettygood. It is important to set your gun correctly so that the staples do not penatrate the shingle.
The way that pricing stands these days , you would be hard pressed to compete if you bid hand drives against air gun.
I'm old school, but what you and Mike said is the basic truth. Material and method is seciond to the actual instaallation skills of the mechanic using the tool. By old school, I mean that I have had days where I laid more shingles than the guys on the same job who had pneumatics, on a perman hour basis. I learned to drive a nail before there were accurate nail guns. But then, I don't complain about laying floors with a power nailer either, while the crew takes the pneumatic gun.
I still don't like staples, but don't let that get me between you two.Painting is another issue. I don't think cedars should be painted. Every time I have seen it, the paint ends up holding the shingle together because you will stil get water blown in, and then it is trapped to rot the wood from back side out. If a client wants a painted siding, I encourage clapboards, backprimed and drainage plane. For colour on cedars, they should look for predipped with Cabot stain - Maibecs
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I agree ! Up here in the Adirondacks we do a lot of rustic work, all of it is stain grade,shingle , clapboard, or board and batten. Paint on a house up here has a hard time coping with our harsh winters and wet summers.This particular house was an odd one, now that I think of it I don't think I've ever done a paint grade exterior in the Adirondacks other than this one.
I too learned to use hammer and nail as a youngster, before air guns were common. I still prefer hand nailing , It's just too much fun!I still hand nail all other siding.
Please. No hack remarks! ;)
scooter... any good sidewall gun can set the depth so the nail is correct..
and you can get HDG or SS nails for your shingles too..
modern guns are the equal of a good hammer man.. sometimes better...
hey - thanks for all the feedback, I appreciate it. I knew about the depth of the nail head issue. We always set the guns so the head lays just proud of the surface of the shingle, or just flush. My friend's argument was based more on the fact that just by virtue of actually power nailing them in it will cause an inherent weakness. He also claims you can install red cedar with galvanized staples b/c the staple gets hidden by the lap of the shingle above. I have always used SS nails for red cedar, a bit more expensive, but well worth the added insurance, i think. I agree the staple gets hidden, but when the shingle gets wet doesn't the water wick its way up the shingle? Seems like that moisture should drain away out the shingle, but that would cause streaking. he claims it doesn't. whaddya think?
scooter... 1st.. we're in salt air.. so i wouldn't dream of using anything other than Hot dipped Galv or SS..
but same difference.. non-salt air just takes longer..
any prolonged rain will soak the shingles ALL the way thru so the underlayment becomes the last barrier... it's untreated wood, there is nothing to stop the water from soaking all the way thru the shingle.. the longer it rains .. the wetter they get.. then .. they dry..
shingles in the splash zone will disintegrate twice as fast as the ones higher up the wall
2d ... a red sidewall should be good for 30 to 50 years.. how long will a staple last ?.. they'll corrode thru long before the shingle needs replacing..
the stain may not migrate far enough to be seen, so he may be right.. there is so little material in the staple that the stain can't get very big
if he wants to use a staple.. he should use SS..
i haven't used sidewall staples in twenty years or more.. they were all that was available at first.. but i don't think you can set the drive depth of a staple like you can a sidewall gun.. so.. the staple is either overdriven or underdriven..
that's an interesting technique of using a 1" crown to span two shingles.. but i'd insist on SS and at least a 1 3/4" to two inch depthMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike- glad to hear that I agree with you on the staple vs. SS issue. I thought maybe all these years I had been too nit-pickey- maybe for the better.
what about building paper? tyveck?tar?nuttin?
We always Tyvek everything and then use something more weather and water resistant under all trim, on corners, and about 2 feet up from the bottom of the wall to protect the splash areas. Product called Cedar Breather goes over that to give airspace behind the shingles.
I think another issue overlooked is the nails them selves..diamond point vs. chisel point.
I was shown many moons ago that a diamond point has two edges (arrises) that are sharper than the opposite two, the process of cutting them causes this.
IF you actually take the time to observe the orientation of the sharp edges cutting across the grain ( say near the end of a thin pc. of wood) there is less splitting.
Obviously you cannot control that with a gun nail.
A chisel point acts like a wedge and also SHOULD be aligned..also not doable with a gun.
I learned a blunt ( think cut nail) will punch a plug outta the way and cause the least amount of splits.
I just installed about 12 sq. of OAK split shakes ( arrgh) with Paslode diamond points and may have had 2 splits..BTW , with these shakes..the average is 650 shakes per SQ.
I have 7 more to install this week and then, I will commit hari-kari..LOL
So thats all I know about it..I wouldn't use staples even if I could..this job was speced by the archy..2.5" SS ringshanks. They didnt spec the point style thank god.
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