Had a visit from an interested company yesterday. Offered me $240k (over time). Haven’t heard a lump sum yet. Won’t lose a building site, which are few and far between on this mountain due to zoning restrictions. Monopole, a hair above the tallest near tree on a 100×100′ site. Multi-page lease agreement, which I haven’t yet read.
They’ve had problems finding sites in this county as most land would require giving up a building site. Worth more than they’re offering. Wouldn’t see it from either of my houses, minimally 1100′ away, possibly 2000′.
Thoughts?
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Replies
There's one of those a hop and a skip from our house, here in the flatland. Not too obnoxious.
Ya gotta read the fine print, to make sure they can't change things on you down the road or restrict what you do nearby unreasonably. Investing in a good contract lawyer would be wise.
Thoughts?
Well, what I've always heard was that "antenna leases" are always the most complicated to operate as the leasor. You have to grant access and easement, for one, which can sound simple until the eleventy-dozen axle road crane wheels up. There's the business of who actually owns the mast--both for if it falls over on somethings, and for, oh yeah, by the way, we have more mast than we need, want to rent part of it, thing, too.
The cell towers also seem to attract lawsuits, too. Neighbors you never knew you had will enjoin the project as all sorts of things inimical to the "affected" party. Guess to whom the writs & injuctions are served . . .
The only other deal is in power. Many of the operators do not give nearly enough prior thoughts to power. Sounds simple, right? Run a service drop to, well, to "what" actually? The cell/wireless people are getting better, but backup and UPS, used to be huge contention points in leasor v leasee relations (Whaddya mean I kint have no gasoline generator? Gotta have power--whaddya mean "red flag conditions"?)
Get those details out in the open up front, and well out of the fine print.
"Neighbors you never knew you had will enjoin the project as all sorts of things inimical to the "affected" party.""Affected party", like "That tower makes the plate in my head get hot"?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
"Affected party", like "That tower makes the plate in my head get hot"?
Yeah.
Or hyper-exclusive hyper-rich types getting injunctions against the new wireless tower all their cell phones now require as it might affect the "rental" value of their properties by having an "eyesore" nearby.
But, I may be jaded, I know of a place where the rich folks tried to enjoin the muni for putting in a water tower their exclusive "enclave" required <grrrr>
Now, were I an out-in-the-country-for-the-seclusion type, my only objection to the antenna lease would be that the lessee provide some sort of surety that no one could masquerade, or abuse, company uniform for nefarious or criminal purposes.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
My brother's a construction PM (or was, been moved up a few steps I think) for one of the big carriers, I can run it by him if you'd like. One thing that comes to mind is that they have certain types of towers that are an attempt to mimic trees so they're not such an eyesore. Maybe not an issue now but maybe in the future? What company is it?
There's one antenna mast in particular that comes to mind. It's in White Plains NY, in a highway median.
Because it would be seen by some VERY rich neighbors, they dressed it up with tree branches like an artificial Christmas tree.
It's both funny and functional.
Although it's obvious what it is, it does take the "edge" off it's appearance...buic
I laugh every time I see that tower.
Besides the tower, they'll probably also have a prefab building full of equipment sitting there as well, something around 12x20 or so. In my experience they'll need their own 120/240v, 200 amp electrical service as a minimum, but it should be their responsibility to have that installed (if it's overhead service, of course you'll have a bunch more power lines to look at after they're done.) They'll probably want to brush out a fairly large area around the base of the tower, and they'll need an access road. As mentioned above they may have a standby generator sitting there, or at least a receptacle on the side of the building so they can plug in a portable genset in the event of a power outage.
Get them to include unlimited phones for family. The sites do normally look like a marine defensive fighting position with fencing and bunker building and generator.
My sister has a house in a resort development (Land Harbor, Linville, NC) and the board agreed to put one in. Got phones for HOA but the *amn carrier is a local who did not go in to roaming agreement with the national carriers so all us "rich folks" that go up there are looking at a tower we can't talk through.
Edited 4/26/2007 11:31 am ET by rasconc
MCI put a tower on some property that Dad owned back in the 70s. I think they payed him $300 a month for rent.
Most of the time it was no big deal - You just got the check. But once in a while it was a pain. they'd tear up roads and fencs, and didn't seem to give a crap about it. But once they were billed for it, they generally paid up.
There were some problems when they wanted to maek the tower taller and extend the guy lines out into one of Dad's fields. (It was sittingin a pasture) But in the end dad gave in when they increased the rent.
All in all it was a pretty good deal. Helped pay the property taxes if nothing else.
A neighboring farm allowed one to be put in about six years ago, over the strenuous objections of many neighbors (we were away during the controversy). Much like flouridated water, many neighbors were (and are) convinced that the tower will cause cancer, brain tumors, and all other kinds of ills. The tower has caused many hard feelings in the neighborhood, and lots of folks still won't talk to the farmer in question who, like Boss's relative just wanted a little cash help with taxes.
For me the biggest downsides were that:
A) It is butt ugly in an otherwise pleasant rural setting.
B) Once it was in place, there was no fighting any additions to it, up to the point it hits some FAA rule for height. Last year, they added another 50 feet to the original tower and while notices were sent to neighbors, it was made clear there were no variances needed to increase height. VA rules may be different.
C) I still have lousy cell service here anyway!
I was managing a mid-rise building on freeway frontage and was approached for a set of antennae (?) on our parapet walls. Sounded good until we read the deal carefully. It was amazing what they expected us to provide and guarantee, like power, access to the roof at any time, security, etc. We declined.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Thanks everybody. Lot of good points.
There are very few large landowners here who would be interested in the money. Wealthy area, we're an exception. Leaves Verizon with a problem as they are just starting to have their own towers here, and can't compete with residential lot pricing. Coverage is a major issue. I was told the lease is $800/mo for 25 yrs. Interestingly, the lease agreement has blank spaces and shorter terms, with renewal. Apparently negotiable. I will.
I'm good with real estate contracts but these 13 pages go by the smartest contract attorney I know before we do anything. And I'm not bashful about altering a contract. Actually, upon browsing it, that will definitely happen in several paragraphs. It'll be an interesting meeting next time.
Major attraction here is that my preferred sites already have good road access. The top of the mountain site has underground elec and phone line already nearby, needing only my easement. We will be requiring new surfacing of the driveway upon completion of construction. They need a shed, housing a diesel generator among other things. It gets fired every 2 weeks as a test, non-stop if the grid's down. All this was brought up immediately by the rep. Road and electric/phone represent a $40k investment we made almost 20 yrs ago. These folks presumably know what it takes to go up a mountain. Probably cost a little more today.
When the rep saw the transformer, phone pedestal, earth-moving equipment, and a crane already on site, his eyes bugged out. Unlikely the crane'll be available for them.
Security is an issue for us. We have a sometimes-locked gate at the bottom. That they have to deal with, no problem according to the representative. I'll be requiring either business hours for access or a phone call prior. They'll trip my driveway sensor on the way up. A 3AM trip down with a shotgun isn't what I have in mind. Standard form requires 24/7 access.
Other option is to eliminate the driveway sensor, after they install the remote-controlled gate/intercom for us. Pretty sure half a mile isn't too far to run wires.
Neighbor's objections... hadn't thought of that. LMAO Closest is half a mile away but they came out when I applied for a home occupation permit for custom furniture-making. Fortunately, 2 are dead now, 1 has alzheimer's, and the 4th moved away. They lost last time, unanimous decision. Verizon is responsible for all permits and permissions.
County gov't hates the towers but badly wants coverage. They're extremely tight on appearance/height. Hell, they're still trying to prevent all residential construction on the mountains. Have yet to come up with a workable plan, 7 yrs later. My suggestion to regulate how it happens fell on deaf ears. Only interested in prohibition.
Phone service for us was something I'd considered. Our house (grounded copper skin and lots of steel) is bad for reception inside. I don't cell, DW's got a different service now. I'd be happy to eliminate our land line. Satellite internet? Oooh, baby.
We'll see. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Since they want to have a permanently installed generator, talk to them about noise suppression - with the proper insulation and muffler, even a large generator can be really quiet but it will cost them more money.
I was gonna ask about db's. We'd never hear a thing in our underground houses. I generally make more noise in my shop, which is near.
Apparently noise is a primary issue for them. And to me, there's a large difference between a diesel and gas generator.
They may not agree, but my minimal site costs looks like they could come up with some carrots for me.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
If natural gas is available onsite, and the generator is 100kw or less I'd think they'd want to go with a natural gas generator anyway - at that size they're less expensive than diesel, and they wouldn't have to worry about refilling the fuel tank.
I would suggest having a financial guy look at the present value of that 240K paid out at 800 a month and talk hard for a lump sum deal up front. 800 a month might be a decent bit of cash now but even if inflation stays reasonable for the next 25 years, towards the end of the lease you might be asking why you bothered.
I'm sure they have the cash, it's getting them to part with it.
Agreed. Rest assured their first offer is not their final offer. And if you have wealthy neighbors, rest assured somebody's got an attorney on retainer and is looking to earn their spend.
Present value of $800/month for 25 years on a real estate adjusted interest rate of 12% is about $75K. You could spend that on a lawyer in a few minutes.
If you decide to do it, get more money and include an indemnity clause to your benefit. Would not hurt to share the revenue in any subleasing they are doing. If you are their only option like you say, they will be willing to negotiate.
That'd be me, not CAGIV, but thank you. Unlikely I'm the only option unless they really need this particular mountain. According to the map the rep showed me, lots of towers wanted nearby. Attraction will partly be low installation cost. From which I expect to benefit.
You should fill in your profile so we'd have an idea of your reference. Pretty sure you're unfamiliar with rural Va. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
it don't sound like this would be a problem,BUT is there any chance of a goverment agency doing any condemnation on this property? i had a building once under condemnation with a billboard. at one point it looked like i would recieve 0.00 dollars for my building because of the billboard copany. i can give greater detail if that could be a problem. larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
i can give greater detail if that could be a problem.
Please. I don't have a clue yet. Unless you're talking about condemnation leading to a "higher" use. In which case it wouldn't be any local government action. There is a great deal of interest in "protecting" the mountains here.
As in 83 acres and only 5 building sites, 2 of them grandfathered. Extremely tight zoning.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
i'll see if can condense this down.
i buy a building that has a billboard on it.been there for 30 some years,the lease has 3 more 10 year options left on it,pays currently 700 per year. i think sweet almost pays the taxes on building.
own it for 7 years and the city decides to do road work and the city is needing the building for the road. they make a 70k offer i say no,they get up to 82.5 i say no,but if you know about condemnation ,they file the check in the court system and they own it. i have to sue them if i want more.[i do but only get another8k,building would have brought a 100 on open market but thats another story]
so i'm not happy anyway,and the next knock on the door is the billboard company,hey we have 30 years left on our lease, we make 700.00 a month on it x 360= 250,000,plus the sign itself is worth 25k, well settle for a 200 thousand dollars!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!the reason they are damaged is they can't just go anywhere and put up another billboard. the attitude with my building and why i can't get damages is the theroy that i can just buy another bulding somewhere else.
i'm like what the heck happened ,talked to a attorney blah,blah.i can hire him for 200 a hour and he tells me they won't get anymore,noway no how more than the 82.5 the city gave me for property plus another 25 for the sign,which i can in turn and sue the city for that cost. i was physycally ill over this.all of a sudden that 700.00 a year didn't seem to matter.
now luckly how this all works out is the city will allow them to restab a sign as soon as the roadwork is over for the next 30 years,so they drop the action against me. whew.....
bring this up to a lawyer ,about having in the lease that if any goverment agency takes this property that the cell company holds you harmless and they must deal with whoever is condeming the property.
i'd love to own more property with a no hassle money machine on it,but i would have my eyes opened a little more. larry
hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Edited 4/26/2007 9:57 pm by alwaysoverbudget
Yeow, what a mess! That's what I was referring to as higher use condemnation. Zero chance here. County gov't wants the mountains untouched. Actually includes everything that's zoned rural/agricultural, large majority of the land here. Tourism's a big deal.
Now, if they want the tower close to the state road, your nightmare might apply. Highly unlikely as growth is very strictly channeled here. And not to my neighborhood.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I am confused are you getting $700/month or year?
i had to reread the post and it is a little confusing. they pay me 700.00 per year for the ground to put the post in. they then charge a company that wants to advertize on the billboard 700.00 or more per month,i get none of that darnit. so they make 8400 per year less the 700 rent they pay me and whatever the "artwork" cost to put on the billboard. larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
After relooking it saw the "they knocked on door...we are making, etc. Not as confusing as I thought. Thanks.
Bob
Are you in Albemarle county? Took us almost a year to get a building permit for something that takes 2 weeks in other places."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Yup, Albemarle, home of the landed gentry. And Hoos. 2300 acre farm second property over is trying to get subdivision approval. All they want are 100 houses. 100 expensive houses. My guess is nothing under $2m. Unlikely they'd be interested in Verizon's money.
Building permits can be a problem. If the county didn't badly want the towers I'd guess your year would be short.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
One point, since you've got the upper hand to an extent, is to not take no for an answer when you ask for concessions from their "standard, can't be modified, we always do it this way" contract. Obviously, don't be TOO greedy, but don't be afraid to ask for a modification of terms if there's something that bothers you.In particular, look for (and have your attorney look for) any clause that may give them a free rein to make the tower taller, take over more land, run more utilities across your land, etc. Insist that their options in these areas be strictly limited and enumerated.Everything is negotiable.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Everything is negotiable.
Hey Dan, were you listening in last night when my (experienced) buddy was advising me? LOL Said just about the exact same things. He's been here and understands the differences to me, and them.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Inflation clause.++++++++++++++++++
The average pilot, despite the somewhat swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy, and caring.These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
Yeah, the rent should at least increase with the Consumer Price Index.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Inflation clause.
Yup. Dug brought that up. It'll be there.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
VaTom,
I've had a cell tower on my place for almost 5 years now so let me just make a couple points.
-the contract they presented me was a blanket contract; easily amended to your request.I did have an attorney look it over after I ammended mine and before I presented it back to the cell company.
- 100' x 100' lease...they didn't even use it all
- their diesel generator is quiet. It fires for 15 min each day. I can barely here it from my yard
- if they ever break the lease, which they have the option of doing, they must remove everything above ground
- they carry their own insurance policy
-If the rezoning of the site were to ever cause my taxes to go up they pick up the difference
-my lease payment increases 15% every 5 years. 25 year contract.
- the price is very negotiable,so if you don't really care whether you do this or not, you're in the drivers seat for bartering.I set a price that was roughly double their initial offer and after a one year waiting game they signed
- All and all, it turned out to be a fair deal to me. The check has never been late.
dug
Man now I want one in my backyard. That generator sounds sweet.
Who dares, wins.
http://thewoodwhisperer.com/
Yeah, my wife and I laugh when it fires off, we call it the money machine.lol
It's really not very noticeable.
dug
I'd run a cord to it in case my power ever went off.
Who dares, wins.
http://thewoodwhisperer.com/
Dug, thanks for sharing your experience. Last night I spoke at length with a good friend in coastal Va who negotiated with the same guy last year, but for an employer. He said the process was painless. Seems the money is very negotiable. My friend asked for and got something called a "whisper quiet" generator that actually was. Stuart, no natural gas here, other than my dietary mistakes.
What I wanted to know, and don't yet, is where they want the tower. Makes a great deal of difference to me and my land values for unbuilt lots. My buddy thought they'd want bottom of the mountain, far less invasive but more difficult for utilities.
My buddy also had family in a similar situation who got a surprising lump sum. The rep I spoke with said he didn't know what they'd offer in lieu of the $800/mo. CAGIV, exactly what I was thinking. We have no particular financial problems, though the IRS was upset last year that we qualified for EIC and didn't file for it. Which actually says more about that program and the tax code than it does us. As a not-infrequent mortgage holder (2 currently), I understand the vagaries of term payments vs lump sum.
Our property tax situation is something I've been alarmed over. Had serious discussions with DW earlier this year about relocating, as we're not spring chickens. It's one major issue we have no control over and prospects aren't good.
Quality of life is the issue. I don't choose gainful employment as often as many. Yesterday, for instance, I took down an 85' oak that overhung my copper roofed outbuilding. Stacked 1½ cords on my truck for a friend (who really needs a better house). By then I was real happy to have a dump mechanism to get it all off. Green oak's heavy. Still have a 35' log on the ground whose future I need to determine. 30' of it's FAS. Anybody need a big beam? PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I'm off topic here, but about once every other week I do an oddball search on eBay. Saw this item and for some reason thought of you.
View Image
http://cgi.ebay.com
jt8
"The lowest ebb is the turn of the tide."-- Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
That's just what I need to till our garden!
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
You're perceptive.
Assuming carbide teeth, I'd buy it if it would pay for itself in max 2 jobs. I bought a small hoe when our electric coop wanted over $14k for the trench up here. I now know it was the wrong tool, but it worked. I spent 2 months on the project, mostly refilling the trench, cost me $1k for the hoe + some tractor wear. I figured I got better than $12k for my 2 months' work, back in 1991. Major money to me at the time. And that was after-tax. Hoe's still here, ready to go.
Surely you'd do the same? Doesn't take much brain power to figure that if you've gotta spend $14k anyhow, it's better to have a machine at the end. They now accept a narrow trench, but when I dug it was minimum 12" wide.
That puppy would trench my half mile in well under a week.
Apart from my tax-paying aversion, I like machinery. Not particularly working on it, but what it'll do. A world different from frenchy's thread mentioning his clients' difficulties making payments. I'm strictly low-budget. If any/all of my stuff sits for a few months or a year, no problem as it already paid for itself. Usually several times over.
What'd it go for? Auction pricing is, or should be, considerably lower than normal sale.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Those will go through limestone. Slow and noisy, but they go through.About 20 years ago my city put in a forced main sewer system and used one of those to trench down the middle of the street.But, IIRC, they used a dedicated machine..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
What'd it go for?
It still has a couple days left. Up to $2k, but hasn't hit reserve. Who the heck knows where Hebbronville,Texas is anyway.
http://cgi.ebay.comjt8
"The lowest ebb is the turn of the tide."-- Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
Well, I've been to the original Hebron... not Texas. $2k's great, but a trip that far in my deuce-and-a-half isn't in the cards. I remember a wonderful ex-army all-terrain crane that went begging at $3k.............. in Wyoming.
Big country, this one.
OK, I'll look. And then have to clean up my computer from the crud ebay sticks on it. Holy crap! 24,591 1/10HRS? Wonder why they want to sell it.... And they have the audacity to have a reserve. It's already higher than I'd bid. I smell a shill.
BTW, don't know if I mentioned it here but the cell tower guy was admiring my crawler so I offered to sell it, along with the 23 ton trailer and my spare deuce-and-a-half to pull the whole show. He mumbled something about affordability. So I pointed to his new Chevy Blazer or whatever they're called now and mentioned that he had twice the money tied up there.
Old stuff's cheap, just gotta plan on getting greasy occasionally. Helps if you've got a place to park it.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Helps if you've got a place to park it.
I'd get in trouble if I had a place to park stuff.
jt8
"The lowest ebb is the turn of the tide."-- Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
I'd get in trouble if I had a place to park stuff.
Naw, just need to get that farm you admired, or something similar.
Unless you're talking about DW trouble. For that I've got no advice. But no problems here. Remember, you're sheltering income. Don't buy stuff and you spend your money on taxes. It's a choice.
Gotta go kill some trees with Bertha now. Kinda fun pushing over an 80' tree (assuming you have a widow-maker canopy over your head). Need any firewood? Last Thursday's tree was 1 1/2 cords plus a 38' butt log. And we've got little need of wood. Recipient was delighted.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Many towers around here are disguised as fir trees or as palm trees. Now, wouldn't a fake palm tree blend in well in VA? :)
Now, wouldn't a fake palm tree blend in well in VA? :)
Well, I do have pink flamingoes frollicking with my shiitake logs...
Grew up with palm trees but never saw one anywhere close to 100' tall. Big trees here.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Don't think anyone else mentioned it....
Since it's not an inconsequential amount of money (by my standards), you might want to consider the tax implications of the income and how the contract should be structured to minimize taxes.
Kathleen
Since it's not an inconsequential amount of money (by my standards), you might want to consider the tax implications of the income and how the contract should be structured to minimize taxes.
Bingo, Kathleen. After-tax income is the only thing that counts. The one time I screwed up was structuring a land sale based on extremely poor (paid) tax advice. That's one attorney I won't ask again.
Either payment form would certainly be consequential on my 1040. Might just have to see an accountant for this, when they return from vacation. Although, I'm pretty sure I already see the choices. To date, haven't been a landlord. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Agricultural impacts?
A neighbor keeps bees.
Another neighbor last year did a cell tower lease.
Neighbor with bees keeps having the bees fly off.
Rumor has it that cell towers affect the bees location sense so they cannot find their way back to the hive.
Another neighbor has a mini orchard, less fruit after the cell tower went in...
cause and effect or effect and cause or co-incidence????
Coincidence, of course. Bees are disappearing everywhere. (Though there ARE cell towers everywhere, now --- hmmmm.) And with fewer bees there's less fruit.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Agricultural impacts?
Pretty sure there won't be any on my agriculture. But this is one of the reasons why I asked. There is a commercial orchard a mile down the road, but the owner has a nasty habit of spraying at the wrong time, killing neighboring bee hives. Far as I know, no one puts a hive anywhere near his trees anymore.
Same orchard is on leased land from the farm to-be-developed. Those houses are going to be more threat. Loss of bees is a widely-reported phenomenom, cause recently identified, although I know of those who claim the primary problem is actually breeding. Anyhow, I've been looking and haven't noticed any diminution of whatever varieties of critters are pollinating my crops.
I'm promised links, not yet received, to independent sites about effects of cell towers. The rep was well-aware of microwave issues. We're already constantly bombarded with them. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I have read a few articles about cell phone "effects" in the IEEE Spectrum, certainly a "trade rag" of sorts, but one that has a long reputation for airing dirty laundry when appropriate. They have found no compelling evidence that there's anything to worry about. Electric power lines are probably a more serious problem.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Electric power lines are probably a more serious problem.
That's my understanding also. Digressing slightly, when I was a Realtor I sold a mountaintop home (top of the Blue Ridge) to a young couple. Made a point to meet them there late one afternoon (presale) with a fluorescent tube. High voltage lines crossed the property. As we approached, the tube got brighter and brighter.
I shared what little I knew about such things, including the Denver suburban controversy some years ago. Suggested that even though I had no evidence, I wouldn't be starting a family in that location. They didn't.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Junk
Rumor has it that cell towers affect the bees location sense so they cannot find their way back to the hive.
There is a study going on right now for just that reason!
I think there was something on PBS recently about it and our painters wife is taking a job at Iowa State to do some reserch that is related to this very subject.
There must be something to it. As my college chemistry prof used to say, "its those tiny little wave lengths are going to get us someday"
Your probably old enough to remember the X-ray machines at the shoe store - that was the prof's reason for saying what he did about the "little/short" electrical waves that are produced from microwave machines and such.
Doug
Random comments:
Talk to a lawyer about the terms of the deal, to make sure you get what you think you're getting. Others have mentioned access roads, power, etc. $240K today sounds better than $1 per year for 240,000 years. You should also speak to an accountant to see if there are any ways to structure the deal to mak it more tax advantaged, i.e. could the $$ be a capital gain as opposed to ordinary income?
I would assume that the first offer isn't the most they'll pay. Also, could you negotiate a cut of any leases the tower company will issue to others? Perhaps a flat fee up front and a % of lease revenue down the road. You need a lawyer who puts together business deals, as opposed to a real estate expert. Once the terms are set, you may need someone to document the real estate transaction, but that should be the easy part. Don't forget you need to be indemnified/insured against any injuries to people or property, etc. One advantage to selling the site is that you should thereby avoid some of the risks involved in owning the site. I suspect in any event they will need an access easement to get to the site and to bring power in. Underground is probably doable, since they will need to put a road in anyway. Good luck and, as I tell my clients, don't get too greedy, just a little greedy. Everyone needs to make a buck on the deal.
Thanks for the thoughts, many previously covered. Roads/utilities already here, underground. Easements, of course required. Sale (short of the whole parcel) is not possible due to zoning restrictions. Cannot create a parcel. Special use permit will be required, which would be a nightmare for them if the county gov't wasn't wanting the towers.
Liability is covered in the contract. Whether it's sufficient I don't yet know. I already meet their requirements, lower than mine.
I've met exactly one attorney who's better at contracts than I am. Getting paper out of him is like pulling teeth, but he reads and comprehends. Like me, believes there's life beyond gainful employment, minimizing working hours. Law school here turns out lots of wannabes who hang around traffic court like turkey buzzards. If they're not busy pounding nails or clerking.
Capital gain would be interesting. One thing that would gall me would be realizing down the road that they were making large profits that I wasn't getting a cut from. I've got lots of questions for the attorney, assuming I get that far. Another site visit first. As all real estate, most important issue is location. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
You certainly don't want $240K today, unless you're already in a high bracket. Better to stretch it out over the term of the lease. That also means you don't have to pay it back if the lease gets nullified for some reason. Of course, it also means you can't spend it all in three days in Reno -- pluses and minuses.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
How will it impact you if you decide to sell?
Something to ask the lawyer, since state law/precident will no doubt come into play. I would expect that the standard contract is reasonably "reasonable" in this regard -- the lease is an obligation that transfers to the new owner with the sale of the property. Kinda like an easement but moreso.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
How will it impact you if you decide to sell?
Excellent question. Dan's correct, if that was your point. But there's much more to consider.
I've got unbuilt lots nearby. Plus, the place we inhabit is destined to be replaced with another house, started. It's considerably larger, more expensive. Resale is never far from my mind. Not over-riding, but present. Something we're wrestling with is expectations by upscale buyers vs our finances. Our area is relatively immune from housing slumps.
Clearly, a lump sum (if available) would be a major detraction. Even with the monthly lease, might very well be more liability than asset. In no small part this decision (if offered) will reflect on our assumptions of our permanence (or not).
If we were planning on a sale, it'd be a simple decision. No. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I occurs to me that the real issue here -- the thing you want to avoid as much as reasonably possible -- is, down the line, regretting the decision to allow the tower for some reason. Plus or minus a few bucks or a phone line is no biggie, but feeling screwed 5-10-15 years from now because of some contract provision is what you don't want.I'm sure this is "obvious", I just thought it needs to be clearly stated.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
One thing to check is the terms for renewal. This is probably for a 20-50 year term, and, if on the shorter end (you don't care otherwise), you may have some obligations as the lease comes up to notify them if you do not wish to permit renewal.
Does the lease agreement have any warnings about the cel tower causing cancer in the state of California?
If it wasn’t for the Bank Payments,
Interest, Taxes, Wages, and Fuel Costs,
I wouldn’t have to charge you!!
I'm in the tower biz... a few comments:
1. Towers do not cause health issues... period. You have to physically hug an active antenna for quite a while to get "warmed up" and the effects are temporary. Antenna sites are all over the country on rooftops, inside church steeples, on water tanks, towers, and inside buildings. You have a greater chance of getting struck by lightning than being harmed by a cell tower or antenna, either physically or electronically.
2. Rents are highly variable, depending on the size of the tower, the amount of land requested, etc. What it comes down to is what you're willing to live with and what the County/City will allow.
3. No matter where you live, you should not have to give up a building lot... the area needed is usually leased and not divided from the parent tract. The lease runs with the property, so the income stream can actually increase the value of your property.
4. If it's a short tower, it'll be very unobtrusive. If it's a tall tower, the neighbors may be irritated, but will eventually enjoy the cell coverage and will get used to the tower.
5. The guys that approach you are generally hired to work for the "big carrier," but actually are most interested in making the deal work for both parties. They are usually very fair and know the land values in your area. $500/month is decent if it's a small tower with a small amount of land. It just goes up from there, but not too far up. The carrier will walk away if the deal gets too expensive.
6. Lawyers tend to just find things to change, but the leases today are generally fair to both parties. They are written to favor the carrier because the carrier is assuming most of the financial risk, but the landlord is generally protected against unintended damages by their employees.
Hope this info helps you make a decision.
the neighbors may be irritated, but will eventually enjoy the cell coverage and will get used to the tower.
Yu talk about getting screwed and the screwee says you enjoyed it so no rape charges ??? <G>
LOL... I didn't want to mention that.
We have county hearings here that encourage all neighbors to voice their opinions. It's a good program. Not that it satisfies everyone of course. Zoning is tight, which I favor. I've sat in on some cell tower debates in the past. Can get rancorous, not normally.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
It depends on the tower size and visibility... if they can't see it, it's a good thing. If it's a 400 foot guyed tower in their immediate neighbor's backyard, I agree neighbors may never "get used to it".
Most new towers being build in VA are less than 199' and are not lit. In some counties, they only allow 80-90 foot towers in wooded areas, so they're virtually invisible to everyone. But in the latter case, there has to be nearly double the number of towers to cover the same territory with coverage. The shorter towers also provide less in-building coverage than 199' towers, so if you want your cell phone to work inside your house... you may be in trouble if you live in the "short tower counties like Fluvanna, Nelson, Albemarle, and many other northern Virginia counties."
Most new towers being build in VA are less than 199' and are not lit. In some counties, they only allow 80-90 foot towers in wooded areas, so they're virtually invisible to everyone. But in the latter case, there has to be nearly double the number of towers to cover the same territory with coverage. The shorter towers also provide less in-building coverage than 199' towers, so if you want your cell phone to work inside your house... you may be in trouble if you live in the "short tower counties like Fluvanna, Nelson, Albemarle, and many other northern Virginia counties."
Do get around that much or are you the guy supervising? <G> You're completely correct. I gather then that DW's cell success inside here would not be improved with a nearby short tower? We're higher than the top of the tower would be, all potential locations. No problems with her USCellular now. I keep trying to figure out how to (cheaply) eliminate our land line.
This is Albemarle. Depending on location, the tower would be up to 90', shorter in the location I initially suggested, and he really liked. Taller if bottom of the mountain, depends on tree height. The neighbor issue is fought out here during the permitting process. Common attitude is: everything's great, why allow change? While cell coverage is spotty at best. Which is why the county gov't is in favor of the towers, so long as nobody can see them.
This guy's working a surprisingly small territory here. He showed me the map of requested towers. A bunch of 'em. How the economics can work out I don't see, but that's for somebody else to figure. I was assuming he'd be working with multiple landowners over the same coverage if he could. Competition would certainly be better for the company. Likely it'll happen here if we can come to agreement on access/security.
Thanks for your input. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
"Do get around that much or are you the guy supervising? <G> You're completely correct. I gather then that DW's cell success inside here would not be improved with a nearby short tower? We're higher than the top of the tower would be, all potential locations. No problems with her USCellular now. I keep trying to figure out how to (cheaply) eliminate our land line. "I doubt that elevation between you and the tower would be a problem.More likley it would be your "sheilding".A quick google indicated that there are several repeaters available starting at $400.For something that close a passice system might work. Just an inside antennat wired to one outside. Just gussing on that part.For high speed internet you can use EVDO and for that just run a cable from the computer receiver to an external antenna.
.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
You're right about our shielding. LOL Grounded copper probably doesn't pass much. Likely the rebar gets the rest. There would be 250 sq ft of glazing looking in the tower direction, through the trees. These trees seem to be a problem for most transmission. They stay.
EVDO?
There's an inexpensive wireless service here that's about twice the speed of dialup, due to our trees. We tested. Other choice I'm aware of is Wild Blue satellite, who's finally again taking subscribers. Better part of $1k up front and then $50/mo for the slowest upload.
Was told recently that cell internet existed. Another question for the rep. Still gotta figure out FAX over the internet- and sell it to DW. Amazingly, her line of work is still almost entirely FAX. Sometimes 100/wk. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
EVDO is high speed internet over "cellphones". Not sure of the exact techknolgy, but the tower (and connections) need to be updated. And it works over a EVDO "modem" and not the equivalent of dailup over a cellphone.I am not sure of the details of FAX over the intenet, but as least some systems you get fax phone number and anything that is faxed to that number is then sent as email attachements..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Thanks, received a forum posting today from someone with a Verizon.com address. Took a peek and they offer "up to" 30 times my normal dialup speed for an introductory $15/mo, cell modem included.
Might be on to something very interesting. Looks like an extra $10/mo would give me fast internet and an end to long distance billing. Pretty easy to live with that.
My internet email, MyWay, has ads for free FAX. Gotta check that out. I'm getting excited. Maybeeeee, no more harangueing the phone service guys for a clean pair of wires. We're at the end of the line and somebody upstream of us gets such a crappy connection that either internet or FAX is pretty much out of the question. I've spent a surprising amount of time ensuring it wasn't us.
May join this century yet.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Do get around that much or are you the guy supervising? <G> You're completely correct. I gather then that DW's cell success inside here would not be improved with a nearby short tower? We're higher than the top of the tower would be, all potential locations. No problems with her USCellular now. I keep trying to figure out how to (cheaply) eliminate our land line
I supervise. Towers built in the past have been much taller than the ones to be built. Many counties have recently adopted tower height restrictions and are very sensitive to the lighting issue. Albemarle County is one of the most restrictive and will only allow towers 10' above the existing tree tops within 25 feet of the proposed location.
EVDO is the particular equipment system that allows for internet service through these tower sites. All towers don't have it, but it's the wave of the future. If the tower is on your property, you have a better chance of getting great phone coverage, but if your home is higher than the short pole, internet services may be spotty. Phone reception should be great... of course that is as long as you're using the service provided by the tower owner.
It sounds like you may be heading in the right direction, so good luck.
If you supervise Harry, my guy, he's great at what he's doing. From my side anyhow. Shows surprising empathy and brings up potential pitfalls to get them out of the way. Granted, he did really like where and how I live, but I'd bet he gives the same service to everybody.
Other than asking them, is there any way to determine, in advance, internet potential? After I posted that I discovered another thread here about EVDO in Washington. Doesn't work all that well there. Hate websites that talk about "up to" whatever speed. All that amounts to is a guarantee you won't get anything faster. Duh. A typical expectation would be helpful, unlike "up to". House would be 40' to 310' above the top of the tower.
DW's cell phone shows max signal (in our kitchen), but USCellular doesn't do internet fully, according to their website.
Albemarle's extremely hoity-toity. Too much money floating around. Which is, however, one of our reasons for moving here. Doesn't take much effort to reach out and grab some.
We're optimistic, thanks. Looking forward to the RF visit. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
The company I work for does try to train our guys not to be used car salesmen, but advocates for both the landlords (such as yourself) and for the company which hires us to find the sites for them. We're not trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes but in fact, realistically manage the expectations of both parties so that there are no surprises to anyone. Sounds like Harry received the same training. You're in good hands.
Wish I lived where the money grows on trees like it does in Albemarle. I imagine you've got a lot of transplants from the north there... it's a good location to commute to DC if you don't have to do it every day.
Wish I lived where the money grows on trees like it does in Albemarle.
Shhhh... enough here already. The only yankees I welcome are those too old to have kids needing new schools. My new neighbors qualify. But then they paid a small fortune (by my standards) for their 18 ac and 3500 ft house. Affects my taxes.
This area has been popular for the rich and famous for a very long time. History available for purchase if your pockets are deep enough. Not unusual for me to bump into literary and recording people you undoubtedly know (of) ... at the country post office.
DC commute... the friend I sold 21 ac to does that. Once a week (2 days there), which is enough to keep him financially healthy. Professional yoga teacher. Amtrak does a pretty good job for those who need more frequent visits. There's even a bi-weekly non-stop private bus service to NYC. For serious shoppers.
Life ain't bad, mostly. Here's what we awoke to recently: PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Hey Boy- went driving up by your way the other day, man I felt richer just travelin though your neck of the woods. I moved my sister and her life partner to Louisa from mineral Va., the closer I got to Pulaski on the way home the poorer I felt --why is that? I was wondering which mountain top was yours.
Edited 4/30/2007 4:16 pm ET by dedubya
Short move. Louisa county's got immense growth in the works. Better her than me to live there. Next time you go through Zion Crossroads it'll probably look different. Long drive for you.
We're 15 miles S. of 64, off 29. When your cell service dies, you're close. <G>
Before buying here we looked at Floyd county (among others), might have been a better fit. But there's something to being abnormal. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Hope this info helps you make a decision.
Good summary, thanks.
As any business decision, who-needs-who-more is always the question. As I mentioned in my reply to Stan, even our needs are somewhat confused. A major point will be their requested location, probably the deciding factor.
Clearly, your #3 is not universal. Which is what they're running up against in this county. The income stream does not always deflect the liability. And small lots that they've approached did eliminate potential building. Probably why they're initially offering considerably more than your $500/mo.
Haven't yet seen a filled-in lease proposal. After my talk with a friend who negotiated with the same folks, I'm feeling comfortable. Either we'll come to a meeting of minds, or go our separate ways. Certainly has been interesting.
Not exactly my business, but do you know how the guy I met with is compensated? Salary or commission? We had a great time, mostly not talking about cell towers. He left with questions I'm awaiting answers to, mostly location. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Most acquisition guys are on salary and do not get bonuses for rent factors. They get bonuses for getting multiple sites negotiated and built quickly. They have an endless amount of paperwork to get done and coordination with multiple disciplines within the industry to get a site leased and built, so the rent factor, although important to getting the deal done, is just a small part of their challenge. They don't like to waste a lot of time on sites that are too expensive, but "too expensive" is a relative term depending on the area. I don't know where you are, but the person you're dealing with probably understands the area and the land values very well, especially pertaining to cell site land leasing.
Everything is negotiable of course, but if you want the site (and any income that comes with it) remember to be reasonable. Acquisition folks are typically requested to get three potential candidates to submit for evaluation. The RF engineers pick their favorites based on location and the business manager can ultimately veto RF's pick based on factors such as rent, known requested lease changes, etc.
Good luck!
the person you're dealing with probably understands the area and the land values very well, especially pertaining to cell site land leasing.
He certainly does, which must be a distinct challenge considering the wide variety of areas he's worked over the past couple of years. One apartment after another, while his family remains in WVa. He was very upfront about the problems he faces here, particularly wealthy landowners.
Now I understand why he got so excited with the first site I suggested. Relatively flat, no road to build, no elec/phone problem (short trench), and no nearby neighbors to make a serious stink. Doesn't get much easier, except for our security concerns. Bottom of the mountain is similar (without the access/security issue), but considerably farther trench for utilities.
What did surprise me when I looked at the lease was it's lack of information, some that I'd gotten verbally. My guess was that it is mostly to see my reaction and guage probability of success.
That's one job I wouldn't want. Thanks again.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I've had a cell tower on a piece of property I own for about 19 years or so and it has been (so far) a good deal for me. The property is about 220 feet wide and almost 1/4 mile deep and it backs up to a freeway. It has a home on it but it is zoned light industrial, so some day it will probably be sold for industrial use (although since I live in Michigan, it might be around 2050 before anyone needs more industrial property!).
My property is similar to others on the street, and I didn't drive a hard bargain when they approached me. It seemed they could have put it anywhere on the block and I was pretty pleased with the money. It will amount to $150,000 over the 25 year term of the lease. Since I bought the house for about $75,000, it seemed like a good return. The lease can be extended after the initial 25 year term, I can't remember the terms right now.
They built the road, fenced off a small area for the building and did all the work. The back of the property where the tower is located is tree covered, and the tower is virtually un-noticeable. They pay property taxes on the leased portion. I have mortgaged the house after a divorce, and had to get a subordination agreement from the tower operators to satisfy the mortgage company, and it was not a problem. If I sell the property, the lease does survive the sale.
I would certainly do it again if the opportunity arose, of course now the rent would start out higher!
just came in from sitting outside tonight.i have a cell tower about 600' away. when i first moved here every night i would hear this one kind of bird singing,nothing real objectionable or anything,in fact i kinda like it. anyway every night 365 days a year this bird sits up there singing then shuts up for a few minutes goes again. i ask the guy where the tower is "what kind of bird is that"?
it is a motion detector that whenever a bird comes in to roost it sets off a recording of a bird of prey so they won't roost on the antenna. no kidding!!!!
something to discuss with cell company because even though i don't mind it my neighbor would shoot it off of there if he could see it,drives him nuts. larry
hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Always good to start the day with a laugh...
In our underground house, we hear nothing outside, short of a gale. Not even the large tree that hit the roof one night. Outside in these woods there's always somebody with something to say. Usually a bunch of 'em. It'd just add to the cacophony.
I'll ask. We do have a very large number/variety of birds here.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!