This summer, I will have the distinct challenge of replacing the failed Masonite siding on my 44 year old ranch.
In going through back issues of FH and researching the web, I am now mightily confused. After my experience with the Masonite, I am tending toward cement planks or good old fashioned wood. Is there a consensus regarding Tyvek vs. plain old felt paper?What is the current state of thiking on these options?
Could this be a usefull topic for FH to re-address in an upcoming issue?
Thanks
Scott
Replies
Depends on where you are located???? (Fill in your profile)
I think you'll find the consensus will side with cement and you'll get a wide variety on vapor barriers. I'll use felt.
Have fun this summer!
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Fiber cement has a superior lasting ability but you still have to paint it like wood, but it won't deteriorate as fast, according to the manufacture (but that's what the Masonite people said too).
Tyvek or Typar is a far superior product over building paper or felt for a housewrap. Tyvek and Typar have engineered their product to perform to the best possible, moving condensation moisture away from your wall, not permitting moisture to permeate from the outside while still allowing the wall to 'breathe'.
As for felt, the asphalt impregnation doesn't allow the breath-through that you want. Building paper is superior over felt, but still has limited performance ability for water permeation.
its great to hear the definitive final answer after all these years of debate raging back and forth about which is superior. boolshi.....
i personally think felt is far superior, i have read nothing to convince me of otherwise, from the manufacturer or an independent opinion. i am sorry but your saying its so doesn't mean that you are correct. i think you have been believing the propaganda you have been reading, just reason it out for yourself. which will keep the structure of the house dryer, felt or tyvek? felt wins every time and it has been in use for long enough to have proven its worth.
yes tyvek will let moisture out, but it will let it in too! what the heck does fiber cement need to breathe for anyway?
you can pick your favorite, and give advice based on your favorite, but i for one don't think tyvek is superior at all. i'm using the felt.
You can felt all you like, but I will choose Typar or Tyvek everytime. The house needs to breath, needs to be able to let out condensation that builds up inside the house on winter days when the humid warm air inside escapes through the building envelope and that warn humid air drops in temperature once it hits the cold dry air, causing condensation which will build up on the wall sheathing on the back of the siding.Yes, many debate it, even my partner who even was over my shoulder reading this before he went home for the day and pronounced, "Paper, damnit, been using it for years, what's the difference?"I don't see it as propaganda, its a proven way in which the house operates as a 'system' involving air exchange, temperature differentials and moisture/humidity changes.
I just can't resist....
GB, you're missing a whole bunch of facts.
The house needs to breath, needs to be able to let out condensation that builds up inside the house on winter days when the humid warm air inside escapes through the building envelope
really? What happened to your vapor barrier on the inside? How does the air/moisture get through that?
Tyvek and Typar are part of a building system, which includes a vapor barrier, insulation, sheathing, an air barrier, and ext. cladding. Tyvek is supposed to be that air barrier, it's primary job is to keep air from the outside bringing moisture into the wall cavity, but if some moisture does find it's way into the cavity it has a way out.....because it can't go into the house due to the vapor barrier on the inside of the stud face.
I don't see it as propaganda, its a proven way in which the house operates as a 'system' involving air exchange, temperature differentials and moisture/humidity changes.
As for being a "proven" material , that's still up for debate, Tyvek fails miserably (IMHO)when it comes to shedding "bulk" water behind an ext. cladding. Felt paper on the other hand does have a proven record of over 100 yrs.
As for the "air exchange" in your "system", that usually needs to be avchieved by some type of mechanical air exchange system to fully complete the "building system" that you are trying to describe/achieve with Tyvek.
The problem is that everyone's trying to use Tyvek as a stand alone product, and frankly I don't think it works well at all.
As the old saying goes....if it ain't broke don't fix it! Use tarpaper.
Geoff
"what the heck does fiber cement need to breathe for anyway?"Because if it traps and retains too much moisture and then freezes hard, it will delaminate
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Is it laminated???? I thought it was cement cellulose extrusion with grain pattern stamping.
I also heard James H invented it for the australian outback housing market? I further heard that its not great for wet/humid areas even though I know its being installed in florida where I are. whats the scoop??-worth exactly 2 cents!
Hardi had not been mentioned at the time I made that reply, only generic term cement board.Would you rahter I use the term disintegrate? hardi tile backer is supposed to be good for wet locations but I considered hardi for ground contact over ICFs and was told no go on the warranty because it would de-laminate.
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shows how much I know, I really thought hardi was the only cement board out there. I didnt think it could delaminate either.-worth exactly 2 cents!
girlbuilder, I may well be wrong , but I believe I read a side by side comparision of felt /house wrap and the bottom line was that felt has close to the same Water Vapor Transmission rate as the house wraps do and meets or exceeds the house wraps for Water Tranmission. Concrete siding over Felt for me.
"Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
They don't grow "good old fashioned wood" anymore
;)
Housewrap is a better choice and a faster install and more windresistant than TP, but if you use Cedar siding, use tarpaper so the tanins don't react with Tyvek and destroy it.
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
>>> Housewrap is a better choice and a faster install and more windresistant than TP
Most materials are stronger and more resistant than TP, which is specifically designed to distingrate easily so it doesn't clog toilets and sewer lines.
;>)
ROFLMAO!!!
felt and fiber cement.
remember wood is a 4 letter word when used outside as it WILL twist peel pop warp ooze sap crack bow push nails out and otherwise cause you to waste your lifes time and money on it.
Many people recommend wood because it helps their business in the next 4 years and forever after
i say, so long as somone else has the chore of rolling it on the house, they can use whatever they want.
ive done both, and never really liked applying tar paper, but i think only because the roll was harder to deal with .... and, it smells bad
as for the siding, i say wood trumps everything assuming youre gonna be able to maintain it
have you checked out this article? After a long discussion on housewraps...
Paul Fisette explains why he prefers felt paper (bottom page 69)
http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/PDF/Free/021177066.pdf
I have read different opinions about which is easier to install
I would like to hear more from people who have installed both and if installing the paper takes considerably more time to install.
I would like to know if a drainage plane(including a furred space) is needed behind Hardi-plank or if maybe a rainscreen type housewrap would suffice
I was trained to accept housewrap, the theory has been pretty much accepted in the teachings and trainings I had in college and working in the field and it is used extensively around here.But I am open to different ideas, so I guess I have some research to do.Thanks for link.
that's the attitude i was looking for, in your previous post you matter of factly stated that house wrap was superior, and while you may be correct, the jury is still out and you have to keep in mind there is a lot of money pushing the housewrap.
you said it all with being "trained to accept", it is not unhealthy to question or be sceptical.
cement & felt....
felt because it's softer... i think it acts almost like a gasket between the siding and whatever you are nailing it to...
felt because it can last for years with nothing over it and i've seen proof of people living in "tar paper shacks"
if its good for a roof why wouldn't it be good for siding?
i believe it does breathe at every lap... i have torn down alot of 50yr old stuff and never saw signs of rot caused by tar paper... and the paper still have life left in it...
just because Dupont says it's so... doesn't make it a fact... i think it's a bill of goods I'm not buy'n
p
My personal opinion would be to use cement board lap if I was going to paint it, It's more durable and considerably less expensive then Cedar siding.
On the other hand stained cedar siding sure can be pretty.
I won't touch the Tyveck vs. Felt debate other then if I were going to use Cedar I'd use felt based on what I've read and been told by those wiser then me here.
Each of your 2 questions have been beat to death within the last 2 months here at BT.
I'd recommend you choose your siding first, then choose an underlayment that is compatible. I really think you are gonna have to make up your own mind, especially on the underlayment but to get better educated read the housewrap related articles linked to on this page: http://www.umass.edu/bmatwt/publications/by_title.html
BTW - some guy here has warned us that fiber cement siding is significantly damaged by drain cleaner so watch out for that... ;-)
felt..
works well and lasts almost forever...
tear into something broaching the 100 year mark...
the felt is stil in good condition..
and doing it's job as it was on day one...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
LOL, OK - now find some felt that is made as well as it was a hundred years ago!;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
oh sure....put a fly in the ointment why don'tcha,,,,Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
If you are handling hundred year old siding, you have plaenty of flys already!;)And fly parts, dead flies, flysh!t, spiders.....
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
IMERC,
Did read that article correctly when it said to be sure to seal the lap joints? What what you use to seal the felt used on walls and under Hardiboard Vertical 4X8 sheets of siding?
Would you use an 8" wide strip, vertically and directly under each joint seam, in addition to the normal lay of felt lapped across the walls?
Thanks,
Bill
seal the joints on wrap with tape..
felt will seal it's self..
and yup on felt at the joints / seams..Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Cement for sure. The Felt vs. Tyvek debate was addressed a couple years back in a FH or JLC article and as I recall, I could be wrong but I don't think I am, felt came out ahead. Personal experience also in favor of felt paper(double layer) and don't go crazy with the hammer tacker either. Just put in enough staples to hold it up on a temp basis, once the siding goes up that will hold it up for sure.
All the tests I have seen with typar and tyvek are from a lab where there is no siding applied and the the tyvek is not peppered with holes from nails and staples. Taping the tyvek is a joke. There are no holes in the lab tyvek but in the REAL world the tyvek is blasted to the bejezus with holes. I have seen tyvek that was installed less than ten years that crumbled to powder when exposed to snow berms and cedar siding.
Tarpaper self seals when it is nailed. It is a far better wrap in my opinion. I am not sure about typar because I have yet to demo a wall with old typar. I have demo'ed many walls with tarpaper and it was always sound no matter the conditions.Mike Callahan, Lake Tahoe, Ca.
There has been discussion here and articles written that says the cedar tanins (sp?) - the chemicals that leach out of cedar when it gets wet, deteriorates house wrap. The snow berms and cedar you describe fit that recipe just fine.
That is one reason I told the original poster to select his exterior cladding be it wood, vinyl, cement board, brick or whatever and them choose a sheathing paper to go with that.
Further the Tyvek in your 10 yr old application may have been left exposed to the sunlight for a long period of time (>3 months) and suffered from UV degradation. But I've always wondered about the point you brought up about in real life the sheathing paper is peppered with nail holes. It's an excelent question.
As far as the statements above about "it has worked for 100 years" and "if it ain't broke then don't fix it" no doubt, TP is the safe way to go for the builder, but I'd like to submit that high energy bills IS BROKE, so, as far as I'm concerned, finding better ways to build is mandatory. Weather house wrap is better has yet to be proven, but we just have to get away from the drafty construction methods of the first half of the 20th century. Call me a building geek, but If I had a time machine, I'd just love to see how things are done in 40 years from now...
BTW, isn't this whole discussion in the FAQ folder? :-)
Cement Baord siding is definately the way to go. It's is true you will have to paint it but not nearly as frequently as wood. The reason for this is that the cementboard doesn't expand and contract near as much as wood or other materials. You can order it prefinished but you will have to throw one more coat on after installation to cover the scuffs and scratches from handling.
Cement board trim is an eyesore. what many contractors in my area (Niagara Falls, ON, Canada) do is use prefinished cedar trim. It stands up pretty good and is a whole lot more attractive.
Black roof felt used to be the product to use until something better came along. Tyvek and Typar. Both are good, take your pick.
Dave
Heres what Ive been curious about since I was building trades class in high school...
why does Typar dull a knife blade so much faster than Tyvek?
here is another big question. maybe i should make a new thread about it, but ppl might get upset if theres 2 threads about house wrap
arent there any building codes regarding house wrap? whether its tar paper or real house wrap, arent there rules somewhere that say something has to go up?
when i learned to build i worked for a GC. there were 2 main crews. one was basically masonary and framing. second crew came in to install siding, customize, and trim .... its a small area, and ive never seen anywhere else that does things this way. everywhere else ive been is all production building, and everything is subbed out. even the subs have subs .... you all know what i mean, ill stop rambling
back to the point... when we framed the house we had to do everything from flash the foundation and lay the plates to install the doors/windows, and wrap the house completely. from the bottom to the very peak of the gables... im sure most of you know what i mean .... (the boss got super mad if we rolled the wrap with the lettering upside down!) .... we had to have the inspector out to inspect the foundation. then again the rough framing and sheathing, then came out once more before crew 1 was able to leave and start digging footers for the next house...
when i framed in the suburbs of Charlotte, NC i was really surprised at no plywood nailing inspections, but again everyone was always very strict about the house wrap. this was on custom houses though
when i framed (production framing) in the city limits i started being told to do things i didnt think were even legal .... black board wall sheathing instead of plywood or OSB is one that sticks out, but this next thing is the worst of all .... its one of the reasons i decided to get out of framing...
we would sheath the walls with the black board (mandatory OSB 4' out from each corner, and every 3rd or 4th sheet after that), and then no house wrap. not a single bit. no matter what the siding application was; hardiplank, brick veneer, vinyl, whatever. not even any flasing around the windows and doors...
a $300,000 house with vinyl siding, and no house wrap... how is that legal?
Joe
A few years ago I was out in Colorado visiting a fellow BT'er, we drove into an area that if memory serves me was a Pulte(largest home builder in the nation) development.
Just as you mentioned, no house wrap under cement sidding which laped all of 1/2" and no felt under the shingles either!
What part of the country are you in? Hint; fill out your profile, you dont have to put down your address but a specific location would be helpful.
Doug
i clicked on update profile, but it didnt give me anywhere to fill in about where i live. so... until i figure out how to get everything filled in correctly, i live in Charlotte, NC
are you in CO? my brother lives in Winter Park, CO. i almost moved out there a few years ago, then found myself here instead.
If I tell you what the NC building codes are you will probably just forget... :-)
I'll give you the link so you can look it up. Here is a hint: Section III, and it is different for different types of exterior wall caldding. Let us know what you find out - you can just give us the summary. :-)
the link wont work for me
Go to: http://www.ncdoi.com/OSFM/default.asp
Upper left, mouse over OSFM SECTIONS and from the drop down list click on ENGINEERING AND CODES.
On the left, mouse over STATE BUILDING CODES and from the drop down list click on NC STATE BUILDING CODE - 2002 EDITION. 2002 is the current (in force) code. A new window pops up
On the left of the new window click on CONTENTS.
From the list of Floders, click on the folder called Residential Code - 2002 Edition.
Of the list of folders shown, the only ones you are really concerned with are Parts I, II, III and I believe Parts V through VIII aren't even used at all. Parts I and II are only a few pages. Part III is the meat of the book.
Ckick on the folder for Part III. Let us know what you find out.
Well, that was interesting. But I didn't see anything about cement board. Must have been too new then.
The summary is that in NC sheathing wrap is required behind stone and masonry wall cladding.
It just makes me barf how many guys there running around who call themselves professionals and learn code from their brother-in-law's friend or an inspector that may be having a bad day or has some need to assert himself. The code books aren't rocket science and once one learns their way around the book for their state, they are actually fairly user friendly. Granted, it would be difficult at best to learn all the codes for all the trades, but a professional should have at least a pretty good grip on the codes that pertain directly to their own job.
i bookmarked the link. i havent really had any time so far this week to look at it
or behind the masonry facde either...
IIRC that was masonite type siding and not cement..Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
IIRC that was masonite type siding and not cement..
I believe you are correct sir. The cement would have been more money and we know that they were not looking to spend more money!
Doug
Can you ever recall so many cornors getting cut???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Edited 4/28/2007 5:28 am by IMERC
Speaking of production builders and weatherization of building envelopes... Check out these pics. This builder can say they use house wrap... well sorta. Obviously his siders don't give a sheet. I figured I'd snap the pic for entertainment here at BT.
The funny thing was that they saw me take the pic and quickly put on their hard hats. Note that they still don't have the proper railing system on their pumpjacks... I got a chuckle out of it anyway...
....that they saw me take the pic and quickly put on their hard hats.
Probably thought you was OSHA. And that tyvek is going to be an intragral part of that house aint it!
Doug
Edited 4/27/2007 6:28 pm ET by DougU
I'm pretty sure that Michigan's building code requires housewrap.
Like you, I am bothered by no house wrap and bad construction practices. The guy I often work for doesn't use house wrap on remodels and won't flash windows, etc. . Recently we moved some windows and the house had tar paper over the sheathing and then cedar shakes. He didn't flash the windows, but I put the old tar paper up as a better than nothing flashing. Where there were holes in the sheathing where blown-in insulation had been installed earlier, he just put the shakes over the holes, sometimes with the joints landing on the holes, and I could not persuade him to even put felt over the holes!
Tyvek and red label cedar shingles for me if you have a decent roof overhang.
Air is driven through walls by pressure differentials and can carry moisture with it. Tyvek, taped well, will cut down on pressure driven bulk air/moisture infiltration. Ever see anyone tape tarpaper?
When are pressure differentials greatest? During periods of high wind, when the air is wet.
I belive a well taped housewrap job keeps storm driven moisture out of houses better than tarpaper. Of course I have no proof so it's still just my opinion and no more worthy than any of the 350 other opinions posted here.
------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Edited 4/27/2007 12:35 am ET by ShelterNerd
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can't figure out why anyone would choose two relatively new products(house wrap and cement board) over something that has proven it's self for years, many times over?
I might be the lone voice on this one, but as someone who spends a decent portion of his life replaceing Masonite I wanted to say what I have to say.
I would not hesitate to install new masonite (hardboard type--Temple Brand or any other) over Tar Paper. By the way you wrote your message, I am thinking this will be a challenge for you. If the so called inferior masonite lasted over fourty years, I bet that you would at least get more than that out of some new type, if you prime what needs priming, caulk what needs caulking, and paint it very well.
I think much masonite failed because at some point (maybe even when first installed) it did not get painted properly.
The other thing that I do so much work because of, water runs off of the roof and splashed on the botton few boards and it rots.
If you do this yourself or hire it out, make sure the installer know where to nail this, so much of what I go to replace has been misnailed and it frustrated me--do not nail throught the over-lap.
If it has only failed in a few spots, you can probably get some that is virtually the same but not at Home Depot or Lowes.
I love tarpaper and would use it on an older house for sure. I like Hardi-Plank and would for sure use it where a house design made sure that water was always a problem but I would not discount Hardboard siding for the average house.
.
.
handymanvan
I think that masonite sidding has gotten a bad rap because of the inferior hardboard sidding thats being sold on the cheap.
I've seen houses that are 40 + years old with masonite and they still look as good as the day that it was put on. But then along came the inferior stuff and it goes to pot in 10 -15 years and all of a sudden ALL masonite/hardboard sidding is worthless.
There is a track builder around here, as well as others all across the country, that uses hardboard sidding and my bet is that its the cheapy kind that will go to sh!d in 10 years, Bottom line product and all that jazz.
The good masonite sidding is a good product.
Doug
just decide- wood requires nothing special to install except common tools and common sense. Then seal all the edges and paint.
Hardi requires special everything that is only used for hardi. special saw blades, fasteners etc. You might still paint it and it chips easily if not handled carefully.
As far as vapor barriers go Felt paper is old school and less expensive. It still gets the job done though. Everything else costs more- do you want to spend more on something trendy. IF money is no object- send me a plane ticket and Ill come install for you- IF money is no object! lol
-worth exactly 2 cents!