Been want’n to post this… and get input on it…
I got an extra bill from my sprinkler guy for about 5k… i never signed a chage order or requested any… seems the closets were deeper than he expected and he had to add a head in several… no problem… no one could have known…
BUT… plans also called for alot of drilling and alot of pipe being run in the joists and walls and under the loft area…
i let them leave alot exposed alot meaning ALL and where they would have had to run 20-40 ft of pipe i let them use one drop and a type head that “throws” the water out 20ft… save’n them a ton of time labor & pipe… I also core drilled for them more than a few times and… spent a ton of time labor & materials clean’n up after them and their threading machine & machine oil…. after i told em 20x… don’t get oil on my floors this concrete is the finished floor…… but they didn’t want to set up & tear the machine down everyday & promised to put plastic and oil dry under it… didn’t happen…
my question is how would you handle this?
do i back bill for the core drilling? and clean up?
this guy was the low bidder and he’s cool.. but he didn’t have a problem send’n me the 5k bill and we never discussed it… even add’n the 5k he’s still low bidder
p
Replies
Did he sign your contract? The one that has all that crystal-clear language about change orders and preauthorization and all?
In residential construction, I am surprised at all the subs that won't under any circumstances sign your contract, then try to come at you like this guy for extras not sufficiently discussed and agreed upon. They must think they have more right to do so by not inking the deal up front.
If you just have a verbal with him, meaning he gave you a typical proposal and you said, yeah, let's start, then you might at least try to start by saying that you never pay for changes unless they are previously discussed and agreed to, in terms of both scope and price.
And then when he wants to start jawing about all the UP in scope, meaning the extra heads, you can then start talking about all your DOWNS in scope.
Good luck.
"do i back bill for the core drilling? and clean up?"
probably - you think you'll use him again?
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man str8 up yeah i like the guy... I left out... they suck at show'n up.. never the same crew 2x... they undo and redo as much as they do because no one tells the other one what the other has done...
signed fixed price contract... with no exact placement of anything...
the up side for them on all this is... they come work on my place when they have nothing else going and i don't beach...
the up side for me is... they progress as i progess and they aren't holding me up...YET
I was surprised at the extra 5k... but i'll still owe em enough at the end to discuss it then... I know they didn't figure the extradeep 5 closets... but it was only 5 closets and i don't see 1k a head...
I don't think anyone else would work around my deal like they have... but with each new guy out on my job they all are design'n it on site anyway...
i was more pizzed about the oil on my floor and the mess they made than the 5k...
worse was i told the guys pick'n up the threader to clean it up... they loaded and left real quick like little kids...
in the end i know i could hold em to the fixed price "law wise" just look'n for whats right... i figure if someone can raise the price 5k... we are back in the game of price argue'n... and i might want to go down on the original contract price...
p
me ? .... based on your relatinship with the sub:
$5K would be worth a sit-down, face-to-face
i would imagine you'd both walk away happyMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
no real surprises that justify the up charge, and frankly their messing with your floors and your doing core drilling smells like they ought to be kissing your a** on this one.
I'm with Mike. Sitting 'em down and talk real. This will also prevent this from happening again. If two straight up people can't clean up this, then they aren't worth much. This is no problem; just 5k of stupid in the middle. Make it go away, and forget about the legalisms. This isn't legal, just foolish.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
that my think'n exactly you just put it very well... like i said i'm not pizzed about the money... I'm not sure what it costs him to do my job and i don't know his margins... so i'm not ask'n him to eat anything... the 5k for 5 extra drops (weird deal is... their just happened to be welded in bungs right where they needed em .... hmmmm..
i don't get mad & yell & scream... just not my deal... I've never even seen an invoice ... he'll just call and ask me to send a check... just last time he said there was 5k extra for the closets...
p
thanks again for your input
Edited 9/1/2006 8:50 pm ET by ponytl
Yup.
This is also known as "backloading" a contract, and happens a lot, too much, with the low bidders I've seen on gov't (federal) jobs. They know they're the low bidder(or close to it), so they make their profit margin with such tactics.
What's the approximate project cost?
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
LOL i didn't want to go there... in fact i posted way back when i was getting bid for the system... I never get more than 3 bids as a rule... after 3 I feel i'm being unfair and waste'n peoples time...
i got i think 5 bids on this deal... all had the exact same info... set of stampped plans to go by...
of the 5 i think it went like this... rounding to the 1k 212k 170k 147k 81k 40k...
the higher ones wanted to use some of the existing pipe & valve parts... the lowest wanted to use all new... the 147k wanted to use plastic pipe even when i explained he couldn't because alot of pipe was exposed....
so 5k added to 40k is alot... but... still alot lower than anyone else...
p
Edited 9/2/2006 6:31 pm ET by ponytl
I remember you posting that way back.I was curious to know if this was $5k extra on a $5k job or a $225k job.Like the others, I would have a conversation with the guy, maybe he accidentally double billed you or something.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
It sounds like the 40k bidder is realizing that he's losing money. His 5k upcharge sounds like a semi-deparate attempt to salvage something out of this deal.
I'd do the sit down and hammer out the real value for your services and the upcharges. I'm thinking it will end up being split right down the middle and the next time you guys do business it'll be better.
blue
I'm thinking it will end up being split right down the middle
another baby splitter? why would you think anything? why not let right be right and wrong be wrong. Splitting down the middle to be nice teaches a bad lesson.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
"another baby splitter? why would you think anything? why not let right be right and wrong be wrong. Splitting down the middle to be nice teaches a bad lesson."
I think that's a good idea. Let's find out what "right" and "wrong" are first, shall we? Then we can either do an all or nothing, or portion out the "right" and the "wrong" bits as they are deserved.
exactly.
It's just too bad there wasn't some sort of established procedure to do this, maybe with some trained professionals who specialized in presenting each side, with a third, independent party, to listen to the explanations and make a ruling. Maybe that third party would have to be appointed or sanctioned by the government, or something.
Heck, that's an interesting idea, isn't it??
scott......
are you & harry doing a tag-team lead-in to your new concept ?????
<<<
78138.16 in reply to 78138.15
It's just too bad there wasn't some sort of established procedure to do this, maybe with some trained professionals who specialized in presenting each side, with a third, independent party, to listen to the explanations and make a ruling. Maybe that third party would have to be appointed or sanctioned by the government, or something.
Heck, that's an interesting idea, isn't
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 9/7/2006 1:28 pm ET by MikeSmith
Edited 9/7/2006 1:29 pm ET by MikeSmith
ain't it amazing how that happens. I swear I had nothing to do with it. It was all Harry's idea.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
co-inky-dink
ask harry if he wants to go discuss it over Bloody Mary's & cherrystonesMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
No, but a couple of single malts would work....