Howdy all,
Just wondering what the general opinion for the cheapest-to-build style building?
Domes? Traditional stick framing? Steel building?
I would appreciate your input.
Cheers
M.
Howdy all,
Just wondering what the general opinion for the cheapest-to-build style building?
Domes? Traditional stick framing? Steel building?
I would appreciate your input.
Cheers
M.
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Replies
First you gotta set some standards for wind resistance, etc. If you have a 50 mph standard, the cheapest building would be different than for a 150 mph standard. Even with frame, you can build a structure with 16" centers or 12" centers or 24" centers depending on the standards.
For the cheapest, check out what military/industrial sheds look like. Quansut hut (they still sell them and they don't look bad) or steel shed would have to be it for a "practical" building. What is your intended use?
For truely cheapest, check out a Tipi. ;-)
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
Here's one for ya.
Last job I did in Alaska we had to keep an eye on our steel containers once we emptied them out they would get stolen & end up as an addition on someones house."There are about 550000000 firearms in worldwide circulation. That's one firearm for every twelve people on the planet. The only question is...........How do we arm the other eleven?" Yuri Orlov<!----><!----><!---->
Last job I did in Alaska we had to keep an eye on our steel containers once we emptied them out they would get stolen & end up as an addition on someones house.
LOL here they were steal'n refrigerated trailers and put'n em in holes UNDER "manufactured housing" ie...trailers use'n em for grow rooms... trap doors down from the living room... one guy set up a welding shop just so he could account for the power usage
p
won't be the dome...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
$99,940.47
that's really cheap...
get to work...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
In general, I'd say your basic farm/industrial pole building. The simplest form is a true "pole" building with telephone-pole-type poles set into the ground for both foundation and vertical support. But you can go a hair fancier with steel framing and gain more strength and flexibility of design.
happy?
Depends partly on materials and labor.
Several non-conventional construction types have lower material costs. Mud brick, straw bale and rammed-earth tires have low material/high labor issues. Pre-fab companies use more conventional materials, but claim that the labor is cheaper with more quality control.
Then there's operating costs. Underground/earth-sheltered dwellings might cost more initially, but save money on utilities. Plus there's less exterior to maintain (i.e., painting).
Had always thought an interesting concept would be a simple pre-fab metal-building, rectangular, ridge on one side, maybe high enough to have a mezzanine level. Slab on grade (polished/stained and left exposed), and long enough to also use for a 2-car garage. Exposed ceiling, industrial-looking, using shelving walls and moveable partitions mounted on casters. Maybe drywall up to 8'-0" for the perimeter walls. Use some strong colors as a cheap way to make up for the other "deficiencies."
An interesting debate. One of those things that if you ask 12 people, you'll probably get 12 different answers.
I was thinking about building a house.
Maybe a shop. I get a lot of wood out of the dumpsters and I was thinking that a Dome would be logical to make because all the pieces are short. Short wood is easy to find. The next thought was how expensive would it be to build. Thats when I decided to bounce it off you guys.
I like that domes are pretty strong.
Domes are a PITA.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Domes are a PITA.
Wait till Rez gets a hold of you!
>Domes are a PITA.Can you qualify that with "Wooden domes..."?
No need to.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Huh?
I've been around many who try to save something by using crap and end up with a pile of crap and absolutely nothing to show for the effort. Mostly I just wish them luck. A good quality house takes time and money, despite how simple it is. Using scraps for a compete house is like working for minimum wage with what you get out of it. Don't build a strange house simple because scraps are "free."
Having said that, if you have a lot of free time and enjoy recycling materials, get to know the remodelers in your area. We throw out a great deal of good materials simply because we can't offord to do anything but toss it in the dumpster.
Once we ripped off a roof and had a perfect set of trusses for a 20x30 building--in the dumpster they went. One second floor addition yielded a few dozen perfect old growth doug fir 2x8 rafters nearly 16'--in the dumpster.
Get to know the delivery kids for a large appliance store and just tell 'em if they want a quick $20 drop off a good working this-or-that.
Get to know the excavation contractors who do building demolition--one complete house is getting torn down just up the street and everything is going in the dumpter. The guy said if we want anything to just stop by before they bring over the trackhoe.
Look for corporations who own old buildings and may be tearing them down. The mother load for my home town was an Anhieser Busch wearhouse that was built with doug fir 2x8s from 100 years ago and there were lots and lots of 'em. Probably 800 boards ranging in length from 12' to 24'. Free to the guy who tore it down.
I've built cabinet face frames from recycled old growth and won't hesitate to do it again--the wood is free, nice grain, and did I mention it is the perfect moisture content for the house.
More than one carpenter has his entire house insulated with small scraps. Get to know the insulators who work on new construction and offer to haul off their scraps for free. Many insulators don't use scraps on custom homes and they simply toss them in the dumpster.
Check the lumber yards and when a big pile of sheetrock broken sheets builds up stop in and offer to buy the whole lot--often at $1 for 7/8 sheet.
Build your house around good used windows picked up from your remodeler friends. Same for doors. We've tossed out many $1000 doors that were simply in need of refinishing.
Always have something formed up for concrete: sidewalk, footer pads, something. Get to know the drivers for the concrete companies working near you and offer to take any extra mud and let them wash out at your place. On a big pour it's not uncommon to have 2 extra yards--more than one driver makes a few $ on the side getting rid of extra mud.
Get to know your local tile guys and offer to take any left over tile. They'll throw out tons of oddball tile each year. Get good at mosiac patterns.
Check out landfills to see which ones have recycle stores where paint and other hazardous chemicals are offered free to whoever wants them instead of going in the landfill. By stopping by regularly it's possible to get enough paint to do an entire house, albeit not in your first color prefference.
Befriend a roofer who does metal roofs and wouldn't mind getting rid of oddball left overs. A friend did his entire house in two colors and probably 6 styles of free metal roof that looks really good.
Get to know the hardwood flooring guys. I know a company that has a pile of brazillian cherry scraps 1'-3' long that would cover 1000 square feet in rather short pieces. Done carefully, these floors can look great.
Etc. You get the idea.
Where I live it hits -40 at least once a year. So you have to insulate. I like all the ideas for scrounging! I guess it is all a question of time. Time enough to wait for good things to come along.
I'm including a picture of floor that I made last year for my brother's house. I made it out of hardwood crates from Indonesia. 90% mahogany- 10% other wood. I have identified a couple of pieces of satinwood,paduk, and rosewood. I don't know what the rest is.
What about design? Someone earlier was pointing out that the same sized house can be 30% more expensive because of design. So is that because you don't use the 4x8 design concept? ie everything fits with a minimum of cuts.
A designed building costs more because of architects who are articulate but incompetent(in terms of building skills), which drives up material costs, and most carpenters' blood pressure.
Cardboard boxes(popular homes in many big cities), are polly your cheapest best. And, they're portable.
The cheapest would be one of those "curiosity" houses you see on TV built out of old tires, beer cans and various other "free" garbage. Assuming of course that your own labor is free.
A better use of the short pieces of wood is to smack yourself on the head until you come to your senses. Happy trawling!
DG/Builder
Now we get some real info to play with!
OK, if you can get the material free from dumpsters and worksite trash areas, a dome would be YOUR cheapest form - each piece can be smaller and linked together.. Just remember that many domes have more conventional ground floors for garage and systems like furnance and water heaters ( think an above ground basement ). wile a number will make a cluster of domes linked together where each individual dome can be a separate room or room complex ( kitchen, LR, and DR in one, BR in another, Office in another and garage in another ).
For material sources, do not overlook pallets.
All of this is as you realize, not something that will happen overnight - securing the land, and then the material and then owner building it will take a good while.
First building(s) to go up in my mind would be shop and storage shed for materials )
1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
It all depends on how much you value your labor, of course.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
True, but in my younger days (1960's) I was something of a hippie and was into the alternate living/building concepts and that is why I am still for the owner builder trying to it on their own and using recycled materials. I just like to make sure that they know what they are getting into - a lot of work, long hours and probably a year or more of time - depending on how much and what quality help he can wrangle.1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
Pole buildings can run $10 to $16 per sq/ft. That is a basic shell that is insulated maybe R6 a concrete floor, no plumbing no electrical. Tough to make out of scrap boards two or three feet long. Hang out at Sears and you can pick up a nice cardboard box that a freezer came in now that is some cheap living.
Are we talking something for resale or just something to hold that extra car or 'stuff'?
There are many sources of 'free' building material, so for me it comes down to what pieces can be best handled by machinery and pnuematically nailed together quickly. A free 8 ft by 16 ft pallet is great for a low cost wall.
See the link for under 10 cent per sq foot <G>
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=59103.1
Reguardless of what technique or material keep in mind the shape:
24x24= 576sf. @ 96lf. of exterior wall
12x48= 576sf. @ 120lf. of exterior wall
and obiviouly 4ft. grids for wood construction.
I'm finaly putting up a shed for a workshop. It's a 50 x 100 steel building. It will run about $10/sq ft including doors, windows, concrete, insulation and basic electric.
My labor not included in the price, but I spend less money working than fishing or flying :)
The attraction for me was the clear spans with no interior posts, something a pole barn couldn't offer me except at a much higher cost for 50' span trusses.
Here's a company that advertises on radio and TV. IIRC, their prices were something like $8/sf or less on the larger buildings.
http://www.generalsteelbuilding.com/
-- J.S.
I think I can build cheaper than anyone... but thats just my opinion and you know what they say about opinions...
I think there are a few places it's wise to save and a many places it's not...
Yes it's ok to scroung 2x4's but plan on use'n them for shorts & blocking... I just think it's not wise to spend a ton of time a 2x4 x8.... when good ones cost me $2.39, big stuff is different... 2x10's 2x12's can be worth grab'n... i got several hundred 20ft 2x12's out of an army depot demo deal was worth spending a day @ $5 ea and shorts/splits were free... so with a chainsaw in hand i had a full trailer load of free 4ft to 12ft ers...left the split & broken parts there... these were all #1 stuff from the 40's I've used every one of them for the record... big stuff like 4x12's up to 12x16's beams & posts can be worth grab'n if they are free...
where you can really come out ahead is a without a set in stone design....
i think deals on overruns, surplus, old stock, ect is where you can save huge... windows... i find one off $1200 pella windows all the time for $25 just no 2 the same... you have to design around what you have and have no set in stone plans... creative use of materials....
as soon as I finish my lofts project or might start before... i have 6 to 8 row house type units to build... 2 story something like an 18' to 20ft wide x 40 to 60ft deep footprint..... prob a shed type roof... brick fronts and hardie board sides...
on the basic shell which is the cheapest & fastest part... I just don't think you can save that much except thru wise buying... slab on grade... stained & scored... standard stick framed... might design around some goofball size truss if you found a deal on some made wrong... door units u can almost always find a deal on just like windows... you might save some if you scrounged a good steel beam you could fit into your plans to cut your spans... going up is about always cheaper so a second floor would be cheap square footage... everything designed around central plumbing and mechanicals will help... main electrial service close to the big stuff... A/C stove waterheater ect... forced air hvac central to limit runs of duct and ways to get it there, roof asphalt shingles... only way to save besides labor is smart buying... off color... discontinued...ect...
a few places you can really save... pay cash and ask for a discount... merchants pay about 2% if you pay with a creditcard... buy HD & lowes gift cards usually about 80cents on the dollar and then u can get a 10%off coupon too...
as you can tell I haven't thought about this much.. about the main thing i do is design around what i have and buy a ton of stuff sometimes years in advance... and know a good deal when you see it... seems the last 10% of any project will eat 25% of your budget
the worst thing you can ever do is use cheap stuff... it's one thing to get good stuff cheap... another thing to use cheap stuff... you never quit pay'n for use'n junk...
I'm in a different position than most in as much as I have space to store stuff, I don't have a job, i have access to capital, and I love do'n whatever it is i do... but i think i could build a really nice say... 2000sf home with nice trim, windows, doors, HVAC ect... that would continue to be low cost for less than $30 a square foot not counting land costs....... yep... for 60k i think i could do that
p
2000sf home with nice trim, windows, doors, HVAC ect... that would continue to be low cost for less than $30 a square foot not counting land costs....... yep... for 60k i think i could do that
Good number to me. Recently ran thru a pricing exercise where I would need to buy the lumber, etc, and came to $36 sq ft for 3000 sq ft including appliances, carpet, etc. With free scrounged wood and free or close to free windows could likely get to under $20 sq ft. Lotta guys on this board don't think anybody can get by that inexpensive - but it does take about $30K worth of tools being handy though. Biggest single expenses would likely be the roofing (good surplus roofing nearly un-obtainium) and kitchen flooring unless 'cheap'.
Was offered a free unscratched 4 YO Kelvinator dishwasher today as the guy's wife wanted a stainless one.
Does it get cold where you'd be building? Does it get wet where you'd be building? Wind was already mentioned... Provide more specifics and you're likely to get more specifics. Warm climes are almost always less expensive to build in.
If your local codes allow it, building on piers is cheaper than building a complete crawl space.
I've built many pole buildings and some other "alternative" structures. Helped a friend erect a 60x60 steel arch building (quonset) last year. He paid about $18k for a stem wall type foundation, filled with compacted base and topped with a six inch thick slab. (It's a hangar) He also paid about $18k for the "building kit".
There are quite a few adobe homes around where I live. Those old timers knew how to build cheap.
Our ancestors killed mastadons with pointy sticks!
When you evaluate different ideas, do a complete estimate. Alot of money is put into things other than the shell.
I have had customers who thought they were ready to afford an addition because they scrouged some 2x's. It was like peeing in their Cheerios to break it to them that percentage wise it didn't have that much impact in the final cost.
Its baffling to read about some family who built their home out of some alternative material and then proudly annouce a sq. ft. figure which isn't that much differnet than conventionally built.
That being said, I know of a guy who was into woodworking. He built a steel building and half was shop, half living quarters. It was probably pretty inexpensive.
All one level, plenty of flexible space in the shop if more room is needed for get togethers etc.
Cloud is on the same page as I am, you have to give us more parameters/limits to work within.
Otherwise, go look in the hillsides around Rio de Janeiro or Kowloon--hard to get much cheaper than that.
If you're tough enough, cut sod will make a relatively inexpensive house out on the Kansas plains (if less ideal in the PNW).
But, you couldn't build one in Kansas City proper, I'm betting.
You wanna build cheap, collect all the corrugated plastic signs come the day after election day. Cover your structure with several layers of them. Pretty tough and water-resistant, and not half-bad for insulating ability.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Problem with that idea Dan. With all that political stuff nailed on the house, you're likely to smell bullshlt every time you get near it.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
come the day after election day. Cover your structure with several layers of them. Pretty tough and water-resistant, and not half-bad for insulating ability.
Yeah, but guess when the only time "they" would enforce the law that all campaign signs must be removed within 10 day of an election . . . <g>Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I think underground be the cheapest, all you need is a shovel. BOB thinks I,m an idiot
I think the cheapest type of building, in general, is a 1 story, wood framed, square, reasonably low pitched roof, and slab floor. Not exciting, but cheap. Put a basement in (around here) price goes up some, but you get twice the room.
Nah, cheapest is your inlaws' basement.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Cheapest yes, but it's just borrowed. Is a van down by the riverside a building? Pretty cheap too.
The van doesn't come with free food.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
The problem is - nothing is free. I have had that proven to me many times, despite my thinking I have finally found something free.
It really depends on your location..
Here in the upper midwest if you bypass the traditional lumberyards there are fabulous deals..
I buy direct from sawmills and take the unsold wood that has stood around long enough to turn black/grey..
For example I bought 2500 bd.ft of Fiddle back hard maple for 10 cents a bd. ft. You see this fabulous figure as soon as you run it thru the planner. I bought 3000 bd ft of 5/4 thick ash for only 15cents a bd. ft. and black walnut when I first bought it only cost me 17 cents a bd. ft. All of those wods normally sell for around $10.00 a bd. ft. or more!!!!!
Normal price for white oak is now 80 cents per bd foot and there is a lot of really unbeilveable wood to be had around that price.. I can have them custom saw me any size or length.
I buy solid two inch thick pine boards cheaper than you can buy sheetrock.. A number of my windows were once in a church or turn of the century house, they are stained glass. Since stained glass isn't exactly energy efficent I had the local glass shop make some double panes.. thus I put two layers of glass on the outside, build my own window frames from black walnut and then place the stained glass inside.. efficent beautiful and cheap! My favorite way..
The fat old guy who's building this for me doesn't charge me anything! I don't need to pay taxes on him and He'd never sue me, (if he did he'd never collect a cent) While everybody wants him to work harder and faster, he works at his own pace. He's a decent enough guy untill you cross him and then lookout!
The only trouble is that stupid jerk wants to build the house his way!
Not satisfied to build a timber frame, he's building a double timber frame, with black walnut timbers on the outside and white oak timbers inside.. There are SIP's in between.
Sixteen inch thick walls on the second and third floors with 22 inch thick walls on the first floor! His latest kick is to build in the round!
somebody told him it was harder to do so that's what he's doing. Stupid jerk!
Sometimes I wish he'd just get it done!
Why doesn't that stupid jerk ever post pictures of what he is doing? I know he could get someone else to do it for him if he is camera phobic.
MarkH
four inches from my right hand is a nice Nikon digital camera. serial#3216747 the patch cord is right over there and I can download quickly lots of pictures.. enough to bore you guys to tears..
If somebody would just tell me which button to push to make everything appear, I'd gladly do it..
No picture button and I can't figure the rest out.. I must be about the dumbest person on planet earth but that's my failure..
I'm sorry..
>>"nice Nikon digital camera"
Post the model # or model name. Somebody here has got to know how to work one of those contraptions.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
I can make the camera work just fine. I've got countless photo's stored on the computer. I just can't find the button to push that makes them go from here to there..
the last time I posted any I had to drive from minnesota to california and wait for several hours while the son of my friend figured out what was wrong.. Since he makes his living on the computer and does a lot of really creative stuff with computers it should have been a breeze. It only took seconds for him to log onto this site. yet it took over two hours to get pictures posted and soooooo many steps and backtracks that I lost track.
It's not that hard. "Reply", press "Attach files" below the input area of the reply, enter the file name (with path), press "Upload". Repeat for each file, then press "Done". Finish your post and press "Post".This will make the picture show up at the bottom of your post. If you want them to actually appear in the post (so that we don't have to click on them) that's more work, but unnecessary 90% of the time.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Yeah, post a picture of the camera.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
MarkH
four inches from my right hand is a nice Nikon digital camera. serial#3216747 the patch cord is right over there and I can download quickly lots of pictures.. enough to bore you guys to tears..
If somebody would just tell me which button to push to make everything appear, I'd gladly do it..
No picture button and I can't figure the rest out.. I must be about the dumbest person on planet earth but that's my failure..
I'm sorry..
All I have to do with mine is plug it in, turn it on, and run the software on the computer. No touching the camera.
>>"The fat old guy who's building this for me doesn't charge me anything!"
Frenchy, I keep an open mind, am OK with tolerance, and I applaud you for coming out of the closet. Now is the guy doing all of this for free your "life partner" or just your lover? ;-)
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
philarenewel,
Nah neither, the stupid fat old azzhole is myself.. (although my wife and children are real enough..as are their complaints about the slow pace of work..
I was guessing it was your FIL or something. Didn't stop to think it was actually you.
Post some photos of the place.
POST SOME PHOTOS!
We're all dying to see this thing.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
Oh how I dislike to be envious!
If there is anybody on this board I cannot match deals with it is on you and hardwood - probably gotcha beat on D Fir and alder though <G>
Junkhound,
I bet you can also find great deals on Sitka spruce to. I'd love to find a bunch of that so I could get started on building my plane.. Hmmm,.. wanna work a deal? some Sitka spruce for some nice black walnut?
I might be actually able to help you with the spruce. Traditionally the spruce in this area was used for aircraft construction because of the extremely tight rings and good weight/strength ratio.
I have a mill. What do you want? Give me an idea of length, and method of sawing.
I'm Interested in a swap for walnut.
Cheers,
M.
MStehelin,
Yahoo!
Deal! what do you want in the way of walnut?
How much do you want? Maybe you can e-mail me?
[email protected]
Cheers
I took your reply seriously and have been looking around for Aircraft grade Spruce. Turns out that the spruce we currently have will not do the trick. Too small with too many knots. In the past there were tree that fit the bill- but not anymore. There is good spruce in Alaska and I am close. I am interested in your walnut though but I Suppose it is all moot until I actually get my hands on the right stuff. What dimensions is aircraft lumber usually milled to?
Regards
M. Stehelin
Mstehelin,
Sitka spruce is what aircraft parts are made of, the grade, aircraft refers to the quaility of the wood.. obviously no knots are permitted or any grain deviation, but in addition there is a requirement for the closeness of growth rings and wood density.
Sitka spruce is also prized by musicians but for it's tonal qualities (something tone deaf old me doesn't know diddly about)
If you want some black walnut they sell it around here for dollar a bd. ft. for mill run grades.
$1 a foot sounds pretty good.
Is it dried
Where are you located?
MStehelin,
No it's rough and green at the mill.
Black walnut is one that should be air dried, while kiln drying yields more bd.ft. of wood. (the white early wood turns brown in the presense of steam injected during the drying cycle) it does so at a cost..
Kiln drying Black walnut causes it to lose some of it's vibrant color that only air drying imparts, tends to make the wood more homgeniously brown, while air dried Black walnut has all these vibrant purples and reds and greens in it that form a subtle yet deeply richer color..
In addition I don't think it's possible to hurt black walnut when drying it.. I litterly stack it up someplace and maybe after a few months might put it on stickers.. never lost a single board foot.
Black walnut has these tannins in it that protect it and keep it from decay.
I'm not sure how you'd get it there to Alaska (I'm in Minnesota) if you only want a modest amount I could probably send you some out of my stash. however if you know a bunch of woodworkers you could trade with (or you have a really big project) you could call the sawmill and order a bunker of black walnut milled to your specs..