Was ready about some folks that found out their homes were built using this Chinese Sheet Rock. Seems it’s was made using some nasty materials and it toxic for human habitation.
My question is since the Insurance companies aren’t wanting to cover the R&R who should be responsible to fix the problem?
Replies
The builder is usually ground zero in these suits but they try to get the suppliers and manufacturers too.
Lennar was trying to step up but I am not sure if they will be able to follow through.
If it was a small builder you are probably in bankruptcy court by now.
Only problem is the poor home owner is in the middle again. They have a house that is uninsurable and unlivable. You know there is going to be a ton of finger pointing and the banks are going to want their blood and it will be the homeowner that will be doing the bleeding.I find it hard to believe the builders didn't know they were going to have problems with this stuff.
I doubt it even crossed the builder's mind that something as mundane as drywall could be this big a problem.
I imagine they were all in denial when they had suspicions that it was bad and just hoped the problem would go away after a while ... like the formaldehyde in particle board.
I believe it's The Gypsum Association who tests drywall for the standard! They are so silent on this issue..no wonder.
have heard rumors that there are other companies and non-chinese drywall that also shows some sulfur gassing when it is tested so I bet the gypsum people are just letting CPSC make a decision about what the acceptable level is.
Who is CPSC? Around 1994 there was rock coming in from Poland, Norway and Egypt without any problems.
Consumer Product Safety Commission
They are doing the studies right now but I imagine there are several other alphabet agencies involved.
I do not have anything to gain or loose in this situation.
My take is that this whole mess is suspected, as of now, but not proven.
Wonder what is going to happen if it is proven it is not the drywall and something else?
It appears to be clear that there is some bad drywall out there. The open question is how bad is it and how much is really out there.
They are trying to quantify what "bad" is. All drywall has some sulfur content. Gypsum is calcium sulfate. The question is what other sulfur compounds are present. It is common to use fly ash from coal fired power plants in drywall. I think the problem is the dirty coal the Chinese are burning. That will be a linear scale problem, not a binary yes/no question.
The thing the CPSC and anyone else is having is pegging the "go/no go" point.
Greg, I got burned on this topic the last time it came up in this forum.
It seems that the "Chinese drywall problem" is limited to the products sold under one brand name, and that the stuff was made with the wrong minerals pulled out of the ground - not the byproducts of the scrubbers at power plants.
In short, I think this thread is a "plant." Amazing how it suddenly pops up, and the entire issue arises again, at exactly the same time that the matter suddenly surfaces like a drunken submarine in the media ocean. All of a sudden, everyone is talking in generic terms of 'Chinese drywall.'
Since the problem had been pretty well narrowed down already, I consider it irresponsible to refer to it in generic terms. It's not "Chinese drywall;" it's "defective Knauf drywall."
Another thread here claims a miracle cure is available. I have my doubts; other 'quick fixes' have failed.
the one and same???
http://www.businesspundit.com/knauf-drywall-fiasco-biggest-home-defect-case-in-us-history/
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
It would seem to be the same story.
The count seems to vary widely, from a handful of houses to countless millions - and the estimates all seem to be wild guesses. Only Knauf would know how much of the stuff was sold - and they're not talking.
There is plenty of established law on the topic. The basic lines would seem to be: Knauf replaces the product, the GC's get to replace the old stuff. In theory, anyway.
Lawyers might try to argue for increased liability for Knauf, asserting fraud, the selling of the product under false pretenses.
The GC's are likely to try to pass this on to the subs ... and it doesn't take a genius to guess that many will hide behinf bankruptcy / out of business strategies. That's nothing knew; the whole liability mess is why you don't find 'legitimate' contractors building tract homes.
That's the downside to razor-thin margins; there's no cushion for addressing losses. You want a contractor who's going to stick around and stand behind his work, you better be ready to pay him enough that he can stay in business.
I don't blame the insurance companies for not wanting to take on a known loss. You buy insurance before the horse has bolted out of the barn - not after the door is already removed.
Customers getting stuck with unsalvageable properties? That might be a good thing, and for two reasons.
First, that assures us that every effort will be made to reduce the losses - rather than run up the tab.
Second, contractors (and developers) have been hiding all matter of kludge behind a pretty coat of paint and plaster for ages. Just maybe customers will begin to make some effort to look deeper next time.
It's not a plant. I have no dog in this hunt. I just wanted comments from those in the forum. My comments are concerning how it's being handled as the builders/contractors are not stepping up to the plate to remedy the situation. There are folks that are out in the cold over this issue.
Timby, I am sure your concerns are real ... and I'm also sure you have had nothing to do with the way this issue has suddenly popped up in literally every media outlet at the same time.
I do fear that your situation is being used by others, for agendas not yet clear. The press can't get it this consistantly wrong accidentally.
You're right. Contractors aren't stepping up because most of them are out of business. There are a few who have tried to do the right thing But how many contractors do you know who could afford to gut and rebuild possibly dozens or even hundreds of houses? Lennar says it's costing them $100,000.00 per house. I really doubt any contractor out there knowingly used bad drywall, nor did any supplier sell bad drywall so eventually I expect the Federal gov will step in and we'll all pay for the repairs. It's also possible that the contractors or suppliers liability policy may play a part.
Irreverent, but possibly relevant politically incorrect comments follow!
What if ... the industry didn't relegate drywall work to the desperate and illegal parts of the hiring pool? What if the management actually cared a whit what their guys said and thought? What if someone higher in the food chain actually received, and heeded, all those reports from the field about how the 'new stuff' was irritating and not 'working right?'
Just maybe the contractor could have said "I'm not going to lay my tail in the line for some unknown muck that the supplier is trying to pass of on us. I'll mitigate my losses by using up what I've already received, cancel my order, and get some REAL drywall. I ordered drywall, and this kludge - I don't know what it is, but it ain't gypsum!" Out west, we call that heading things off at the pass.
Yoo expensive to get the other stuff? Well, having to go back and re-do all those houses ... going to sleep at night, knowing your work is making folks sick ... yea, there were some real savings there.
I'm beginning to have a flashback ... to the old John Belushi skit ... where he waxes eloquently about some problem .... lays out an obvious and simple solution ... concludes that of course it will be adopted ... pauses ... then shouts "NAHHH!"
It wouldn't surprise me if some of the contractors knew and didn't really care as that made that extra buck in the wallet. I know personally that corporations don't care. You can warn all you want and they just disregard anything that is being said. All you get is:
What do you know your just a peon.
I don't pay you to think I pay you to do what I tell you. Besides, you should be glad you have a job (etc, etc, etc). This is a becoming the norm in the US. There are few real craftsmen anymore as it doesn't pay.Truly a sad state of affairs. When corporations that are "Too Big to Fail" are allowed to ruin our economy and be rewarded it's getting time for main street to stand up and be heard. No one can tell me that there hasn't been some contractors that complained but it was covered up because of later litigation. What do I know I'm just a displaced IT person....
From what I understand the domestic supply of drywall couldn't meet demand at the time, and the companies who could figure out a way to find a supply from overseas were seen as "saving the day" for the contractors who were trying to keep their jobs moving.
At the time no one (except maybe the manufacturers) had an inkling there was any problem with the stuff. At the time drywall was drywall, and who cared if it was made by USG or Georgia-Pacific or Knaupf or ... Of course, after the problems appeared now people care, and there's a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking.
No good deed goes unpunished...
Billy
BillI understand there was a shortage and it was a coup to fine another supplier. However, when the folks using this product day to day started raising concerns no one was listening. You mean to tell me that one day someone woke up and decided that was a problem? There were no warnings? Of course there were. However, like the tobacco industry, Banking/Mortgage, Tech, etc it was better to hide their heads in the sand and hope the problems would go away. Mark my word, you and I will pay for this little indiscretion of the housing industry before it's all over.
Exactly, there were no warnings, no hints, no clues. Maybe it will turn out to be the concrete blocks that were made with Chinese sand and gravel. And yes, Chinese sand and gravel are imported for block construction. Are you worried about that? Of course not any more than anyone had any reason to worry about German (Chinese) drywall. It looked the same, it felt the same, it cut the same, it finished the same, it even cost the same. Even today builders have no idea whether houses they built have Chinese drywall because all they did was call a supplier and order 150 sheets of 1/2 drywall. No one had any reason to imagine there could be a problem.
Exactly.
"What if ... the industry didn't relegate drywall work to the desperate and illegal parts of the hiring pool? What if the management actually cared a whit what their guys said and thought? What if someone higher in the food chain actually received, and heeded, all those reports from the field about how the 'new stuff' was irritating and not 'working right?"Yeah, you beat that horse to death in another thread. But I'm here in Chinese drywall land and you aren't. Don't know how it is where you live but drywallers here are regulated just like any other sub, no more, no less. Never heard a word from any sub, drywall or otherwise complaining about it not working and whatever effects it may or may not have came only after the house was sealed up so no one would notice it except someone who lived there.I know in your world you only buy name brand American drywall and you stay right there on the job with the hangers and finishers to make sure it's done right and has no side effects. Doesn't work that way in the real world of production building where you're competing with hundreds of other builders for rapidly diminishing supplies of drywall and hard to get subs all while making loan payments to your bank and hoping you can finish in time to make a buck or two.
Contracting issues aside .... you've missed another of my points:
This is NOT a "Chinese" drywall problem. Not even close.
It's a Knauf problem. Plain and simple.
I know a guy who has literally travelled the world inspecting, among other things, drywall plants. Including ones in China. He had never heard of Knauf before this. Now, this man doesn't claim to know everything; it's just that his employer has never had any dealings with Knauf.
What does that mean? It means that there is a lot more to the drywall industry than Knauf - however big they may claim to be.
Otherwise, I'm sorry, but I find it hard to believe that the guys working the materials didn't notice some difference. I mean, this forum light up like a Christmas tree with the slightest change is made to S-W's paint formulas! A different mineral has to feel different.
Impossible to compete .... well, if you're not making a living, get out would be the sensible thing to do. If you can't afford to use an alternative product, you sure can't afford to go back and fix it. The contractors that 'carried on' assumed the risk. RISK. Look it up. The word means they reap the losses as well as the rewards. You pay your money and take your chances. Blindsided? Sure; there's that word 'risk' again.
Heck, I've been through this - though I admit on a much smaller scale. After having to replace 80% of someone's "whiz-bang miracle product" within the first year, you can be sure I stopped using it. You can also be sure that I'm a bit more thorough in my evaluation of new gizmos. Call-backs are killers.
You may hear others say 'buy American,' but I'm not one of them. That's not an issue here. Indeed, I think this continual reference to this as a 'chinese' problem is an effort to divert attention from the truly responsible party: Knauf. Doing so is a despicable tactic. Let's punish the innocent, and let the guilty off the hook - I don't think so.
It's not an 'innocent mistake' anymore.
in the same token the chinese commited economic fraud and passed off hazardous goods here just like they do with so many other items....
and they keep at it till caught... instead of improving they just try some other scam till caught....
over and over again....
I believe both parties are equally at fault here....
use yur money and hit them where they live...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Well, you won't often find me saying nice things about the Chinese.
Just be glad they let the same folks make their tanks and airplanes :D
What would those alternate products be? Please remember that this happened in an area where 1500 new homes were being built per month in one county. Getting any drywall at all was hard, houses were taking a year instead of 6 months to build and the bank payments went on. I could write a book about the whole mess and all the things builders did wrong but maliciously buying bad drywall wasn't one of them.
You think any builder knowingly did this? I can hear the conversation in Lennar's conference room now.
" I know what we'll do, let's use Chinese drywall in these houses that are costing us $150K each to build. We'll ignore the complaints from the illegal Elbownian drywall hangers about the green gas coming out of the drywall and their tools rusting. Then when the market crashes we'll sell them for $100K to unsuspecting Yankees. When they complain we'll go back in, demo the interior and spend $100K to replace the drywall! Think what it will do for the economy! This will make Cash for Clunkers look like a kid's." Did you see any posts here about bad drywall while it was being installed? I've never said nor implied that the builders weren't responsible. I think they are but it makes no difference. 90% of them are out of business so going after the builders is a waste of time and money. Some builders, like Lennar, started to repair houses before the issue became public knowledge, a few others have followed suit since. Once it is proven beyond doubt that the drywall is the problem then Knauf should be the focus.
If the Elbonians are complaining, you can assume a sinister polt, hatched by Catbert, managed by the pointy-haired guy, and implimented by Wally :D
Interesting. How can a bird be left-handed if it doesn't have hands? (But then again, where does McDonald's get their chicken fingers?)
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
I don't know if it is just hysteria or overzealous lawyers but there are grumblings around here of some defective USG drywall.
My daughter is planing to buy the home in Miami Fla. that she is been currently renting. the owner/builder had it in the market for one mill. and is going belly up. and wants to sell for over 300,K. is there a way to test the drywall or can a section be taken off to check for the make or origin of the drywall?
You can do a crude check by examining the wiring inside a few switches and outlets. If the bare copper wire has turned black then you likely have the bad drywall.Otherwise you'd need to get a sample and send it off to a testing lab (though I do see when you Google "Chinese drywall testing" that there are some DIY test kits advertised).
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
The first indication most people have is the A/C evaporator coil turns black.
Yeah, but who can see that?
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
pull the cover/door and look....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Not possible on many units, at least not without a lot of effort.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
that coil was installed in the cabinate as an option and is changable without destroying everything in sight to get at it...
this statement doesn't rule out hacks...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Our first unit was done by a hack. Second unit definitely not. If there's no space, how else do you do it other than to route the plumbing through the front?
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
still the door has to be removable... install gates/panels...
how do you get yur coil cleaned/serviced???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
The AC evap coil is usually 4 screws away (Remove the air handler access cover). Easier than pulling a panel cover and a better indication if they were running the AC.
The combination of the sulfur in the air and the condensate water trashes them pretty fast.
YMMV if the A/C was off but in Florida that usually only happens if the house was foreclosed and the utilities were off too.
In that case black mold may be a worse problem than chinese drywall but the fix is usually about the same. The walls will probably come down, back to the FEPAC stage
Not always the case. On both our old and new furnaces the AC coil was plumbed through the front panel, and other panels were inaccessible without removing ductwork. The only way to get at the coil was to cut the pipes.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
sounds like you got hacked...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
We might be in a situation akin to the aluminum wire fiasco; it looks like any problems will become dramatically evident within the first couple years.
Like that inaccessible evaporator coil. It will become accessible when it fails and is replaces - at which time the cause ought to be evident.
Likewise, it ought to be clear within the next year exactly how many homes are going to have problems.
I'm living with the Aluminum wire fiasco. Being young and naive (over 20 years ago), I didn't know there was such a thing. So when I bought my home home I didn't know. Funny thing, before I bought the house I paid for an inspection. Guess what, the inspector didn't catch it either. Well what do you expect, these are the same folks that allowed Fox and Jacobs to build such shoddy homes (walls have 2x4's on 24" centers, roof sheathing 1/2" instead of 5/8's, AU wiring, wall insulation only in certain areas, etc).I can relate .....:<(
If the inspector didn't catch aluminum wire he was an a-hole.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
The home inspection biz is dodgy now, I can just imagine how bad it had to be 20 years ago. "Yep we inspected and there IS a home there".I am still surprised nobody caught the aluminum since it was a recent scandal 20 years ago. My opinion, not shared my all, is, if your house hasn't burned down by now and you don't screw with that wiring, the aluminum is probably OK ... but be vigilant.
Yeah, aluminum wiring should have been on the "top 5" list for the inspector, right after checking that there really is a furnace and water heater. It's stupidly easy to do and makes the HO think you know what you're doing.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
I guess I have just never seen a system like that. It sure looks like a serious design flaw. How are you supposed to service that? (clean the coil etc)
I think I would cut in an access door if I had something like that.
The air handlers we see around here have a cover with a few screws holding it on.http://gfretwell.com/ftp/Trane%20TWE.jpg
You're welcome to drop by sometime and see if you can figure out where to cut an access door.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
We don't know nothing about no furnaces down here. All we have are air handlers with heat strips in place. You can take almost all the insides out in a few minutes through the access panels. Sort of like arthroscopic surgery without the scars.
It is my contention that the sole entity that should be blamed is the testing authority, which I have believed was the Gypsum Association. Every drywall has a spec number on it and I would like to know exactly what the test parameters are.One just cannot put a tape rule on it and if it meets 1/2" x 12'..it's OK!In Asia they do not have this problem..seems the difference in effect is that American homes are "tightly" built and bear in mind that for the past few years China has utilized more drywall than the USA has..we fell to 2nd in that category too.
Here is some Gee Whiz info about this from the Florida Department of Heath.http://www.doh.state.fl.us/ENVIRONMENT/COMMUNITY/indoor-air/casedefinition.html
Usually, if the house has been closed up, it will smell like rotten eggs. Then you could look in the electric panel and see if the exposed copper has turned black. If you have either or both those conditions I'd pull a sheet somewhere for a look at the back. Knauf is the brand in question.
THANKS, for the response, I'll keep reading the posts!
The unfortunate thing is that if this one guy does the "right thing" but the other 30 rockers in the area don't, he'll be out of work.This is really the same reason that the banks got into trouble: They knew it was wrong, but everyone else was doing it, and if they didn't they wouldn't just lose a little money, they'd be taken to the cleaners. They gambled that things wouldn't come apart on their watch (and likely many pulled it off by leaving or changing policies at just the right time to avoid the mess).This is the "Prisoners' Dilemma", more or less, and is one big reason why a certain degree of government regulation is needed in all segments of the economy.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
It is common to use fly ash from coal fired power plants in drywall. I think the problem is the dirty coal the Chinese are burning.
My understanding is that much of the "gypsum" ( a natural mineral of the composition CaSO 4 * nH20) is calcium sulfate from the de-sulfication of coal powered electrical generating plants flue gasses. It is derived from a reaction in the lime-scrubber towers at power plants CaCO3 + SO3 + H20 = CaSO4 nH20 + CO2 ( reaction is not balanced in this example).
I was always under the impression that the Chinese did not use scrubbesr, but this must be in error, because I do not know of another way to derive calcium sulfate cheaply in industrial quantities, especially when inadvertently mixed with free sulfur oxides
Edited 10/17/2009 2:53 pm ET by McMark
Edited 10/17/2009 2:54 pm ET by McMark
Edited 10/17/2009 2:55 pm ET by McMark
All I know is that this stuff isn't likely to show up here - and I'm thankful for that.
US Gypsum has a GWB plant which adjoins the city port. Gypsum arrives in bulk carrier ships - unloaded and conveyors take it directly into their plant.
Even the BB stores won't pay the additional freight.
You know how GWB has a date and time of manufacture stamped on the back of each sheet? It's not at all uncommon to receive a delivery of GWB at local job sites which was manufactured yesterday. That's fresh!
"I don't want that old stuff - it's purt near a week old...."
Jim