Chosing Plumb or Diagonals for hip roof?
I have all of my walls up finally and am checking for plumb and straightening the walls. But… I was reading a book by Will Holladay and he mentioned that it is better to have your diagonals right on if you have a hip roof than it is to have the walls plumb. Well I have a hip and my diagonals are off by 3/4″. Which should I do? Plumb the walls or get the diagonals right on so my hip comes out right?
Is 3/4″ excessive?
Thanks
Replies
Just keep all your walls plumb and forget the diagonals. That's another thing I've never seen anyone do before after the walls are up. Trust me, you don't have to do that.
Your hip roof won't be hard to cut. If your checking diagonals like you said and they are out 3/4", were they out like that on the deck? If not, maybe your walls aren't really plumb. If your walls are dead nuts plumb and your happy, cut the roof.
As long as your walls are parallel and plumb, your good to go. If you didn't string the walls straight and sited them by eye, if you have bad eyes, your walls won't be parallel.
Is this plumb enough Joe?
Forgot to add pic.
I did that, too!A little green food coloring mixed with 5 min epoxy, injected into a cracked and drained level vial, and I can keep any client happy when I trot it out. I call it my Tate's Level, named after a compass I used to own that would call any direction North, depending on how you held it.That was my Tate's compass, 'cuz he who has a Tate's is lost!AitchKayPS If I'm out more than, say, 10 degrees, I just lean 'til I'm parallel with the level, and act like the client's crazy. Sometimes I have to ask if they're astigmatic. By the time they've returned from their appointment with the optometrist, I've already cashed the check. Problem solved.
No, that corner is 1/4" out of plumb. It's easy to get it perfect. A little push brace and in five seconds, it's perfect. Of course, then you have to restraighten the rest of the wall..which will take another five minutes.
Joe my diagonals were right on on the deck but I may not have cut my top plates exactly the same size as my bottoms. I did not figure that out till I did my interior walls.
I may not have cut my top plates exactly the same size as my bottoms. I did not figure that out till I did my interior walls.
I don't follow that. Didn't you layout all three of your shoes and plates cut to fit for every single wall before you stood them up?
Joe Carola
Well a few of the lower top plates might be a 1/8" longer than the bottom plate. I framed a few of the walls then started cutting the plates exactly the same size.
Blown,
I've been loosely following your threads............do what Tim said.
If you measured 3/4" difference, I'm not sure I'd be happy with that, but the reality is that you may only be off by 3/8" on each corner.
Won't mean a whole lot when you get up top and do it as Tim suggested.
After all, what are your alternatives at this point?
You did good for your first shot aat this.
I've seen guys screw this up way bad and they've been doing it for way long.
Get your roof on![email protected]
Thanks Eric. After making a plumb stick I plumbed my corners and i'm within an 1/8" in diagonals. I hope my plumb stick is correct.
Well now you have learned the important lesson. Never use a stud face as a place to check plumb.
Always go from plate to plate . Sounds like you solved the (really) non-existent problem by using one of the correct techniques for plumbing walls.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I hope so Dt.
Before you get too carried away with the plate to plate technique, remember where the critics will be checking your work LOL! Your diagonal problems are stemming from your lack of precision on the plumbing. That vial was not centered perfectly. If you get that perfect, you might find that your diagonals are also perfect, assuming they were perfect on the floor snap lines.
Jim just how perfect do you guys get the vile in the level to be? Good enough for government work or right on the money? Am I splitting hairs here?
I would shoot for this:
View Image
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Thanks Jon. I'll try.
I always get the corners perfect. The reason is simple: we are plumbing things and it only takes five to thirty seconds more time to tweak it. It will save us hours later to do it right during this stage. For instance, since I know my deck lines are perfect and the corners are perfect, I've never spent even one minute squaring the top corners.Remember, we always sheathed our walls while laying down. So, the tops would come together and typically be perfect. If they aren't, I spend some time investigating. If I find nothing, I bang the bottoms out to make the corner plumb and blend the bottom plates for the last few feet.
Carlos, go for the roof 3/4 is not bad when you realise it's only 3/8 on 2 corners.
Cut the roof, and don't worry about this anymore.>G<
I think every framer on here has told you the same thing, amazing!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry Erric, ment that for mr Blown....
Edited 9/1/2008 8:22 pm ET by frammer52
His responce to you is exactly what I was thinking.....I see guys whack up the corners when laying up plates.
If they aren't stacked straight then the walls corners will be a bitch to plumb IF you can.[email protected]
Plumb the walls and corners.
See the pic. Jim.
I've only checked the diagonals one time and that was after we plumb and aligned the walls. We were within 1/4" and plumb at all the corners.
Your case illustrates why it is so important to make you lines square. Then you just plumb everything and forget about it.
I agree with Joe and Blue, make everything plumb and then cut your roof. Are you going to precut it? Or measure it in?
What you could do is set your ridge and precut the commons, nail those in, your end kings you should tack at the plate and then mark the ridge where those commons plane with the top of the ridge. Then cut and install your hips.
I think i'll measure it in Tim. Since I may not be right on the money everywhere i'll just take the extra time and measure and tweak here and there as I go.
After reading all of the posts I'm glad things turned out better.
Most people grossly underestimate the importance of building nice tight plates for at least the exterior walls.
Even when I used to tilt up frame instead of stick, I took special care to build a good set of exterior wall plates.
Not sure how you framed it but it sounds like you did a tilt up. Laying out wall plates as needed and end nailing thru the plates then dding the top plate before standing it up, sliding it into place and nailing the shoe in place.
If that's what you did? Here's a trick I used to use.
Once the everything was laid out, I would go ahead and cut all of my sole plates and toe nail them down, Then I would cut all of my second plates and toe nail them to soles. Then, I cut all of my tops plates. I used Duplex nails (like for masonry forms) to nail them to the second plate.
After I laid down all of my plates and marked the stud, joist, rafter ect, ect........ Then a few seconds to mark the walls for location, pull the toe nails that held the soles to the deck and with a helper stack them out of the way until needed.
I would rather just stick frame, but on occassion tilt up makes sense.
Also, you can go to a welding/fabrication/metal supply house and get a nice piece of box section aluminum beam. you can cut it to length and use it to span from top plate to bottom plate when plumbing walls. Usually a little better than sorting thru the pile of left over studs looking for a straight one.
Last thought is that.........3/4 difference means 3/8ths out. Not the end of the world so long as everything is straight and plumb.
I have never understood the idea of tacking your plates together to such a degree. That is a lot of unnecessary work to me.
What I do is tack the bottom and top plates (not the double top)together with one 8d nail, then mark 5 1/2" and line it up with the snapped line (we frame 2x6 exterior walls). Then cut the plates on a stud (which should be stacked over a joist). Keep doing that until you get to the other end of the wall, mark the plate right at the 5 1/2" snapped line and then add 5 1/2" and cut the plates.
I do that all the way around, then when we frame walls, the plates are easy to pry apart, don't bother pulling the nail, just pound if over.
All the thinking was done when the lines were snapped on the deck. After that it is just locating windows and doors.
I didn't intend for this to sound antagonistic, just seems like a high degree of accuracy can be achieved without nailing everything together, "unnailing" it all, then nailing the wall together.
The other thing I don't think makes sense (not directed at you) is the whole, layout the windows/doors on the subfloor and then transfer to the plates. Again, seems like an extra step that will not result in faster or more accurate frame.
Just my $0.02
"I have never understood the idea of tacking your plates together to such a degree."Agreed. I was taught to tack but never saw the need. I stopped buying 8's so the guys didn't have anything to tack with too. I've never had a wind knock my plates over as I layed them out.
Tim,
Maybe you and I can get away with that.
It's been some time since I had to hire a framing crew but the last time I did the quality of helpers wasn't exactly the highest regardless of what I was willing to pay.
I always found that while the helpers carried studs and made headers ect, ect.......My lead guy and I could produce a fairly foolproof layout that a trained chimp could build.
Having said that, i would much prefer to stick/toe nail than tilt up.
My lead guy and I could produce a fairly foolproof layout that a trained chimp could build.
I don't believe in biological evolution for the truth found in your statement :-) !!!!
Tim, we always tacked plates together because with an untrain helper nailing walls together, less chance of them spinning a plate.
Blown, stick framing is another term for building on site., can still be calledstick framed when using trusses
I have to say that if this is a necesary step, then the guys aren't trained well enough. And I don't intend that to sound arrogant.
I could see that maybe if you have a huge crew, then maybe there needs to be some consideration to the lack of skill or thinking ability.
I was trained how to frame walls when I was 15 (actually when I was 12 I got to go out and frame with "the guys" and hand nail the walls together. So I don't understand why the concept can't be explained to a sufficient degree to frame walls.
Second for me is that the whole stick building thing doesn't seem to be efficient either. Just frame the wall and face nail the studs and sheathe or not sheathe, whatever. But I don't see the benefit to nailing the plates down and then lifting walls without bottom plates.
We do that on basements and I hate it, but it makes for flat topplates.
We have had up to 25 different people working on a house dependig on the day and what is being done.
I understand what you are saying about tacking, but everytime we didn't, spun plate.
I missed the last of your post. We always nail studs to platres before lifting. Doesn'r make sense otherwise. I think if I was in NY i would do the same thing, then have a man go back and toenail like the inspectors seem to want.
Edited 9/2/2008 7:19 pm ET by frammer52
Makes sense to me. Still seems that there must be a decent way to label which plate is which, like a big "B" for bottom and "T" for top with an arrow next to the letters that point the same way, both to the left or right.
Eventually, everybody understands the x's should be the same direction, but for the hard headed(notice how I didn't say stupid), we make it a habit to tack plates together with arrows and b ,f etc.
Edited 9/2/2008 7:26 pm ET by frammer52
Makes sense to me. Still seems that there must be a decent way to label which plate is which, like a big "B" for bottom and "T" for top with an arrow next to the letters that point the same way, both to the left or right.
Tried every variation of that theme.
It's just easier to tack the damned things together and move on. Besides. I prefer to lay out all my plates no matter how I'm framing them.
When they are tacked I can just pick them up and stack them out of the way.
There is another area that has been addressed in this thread some as well and that is doing your layout. I will either lay out the whole job on the deck (summer) or lay out the perimeter and mark the plates for walls and then when the weather gives me some sort of a break snap out the interior (winter).
Both work , both are efficient depending on circumstances. Going through a dozen chalk lines a day for the sake of having it all snapped out in advance doesn't do it for me.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
have to say that if this is a necesary step, then the guys aren't trained well enough. And I don't intend that to sound arrogant.
I would like to believe that also. But, in reality? It's a simple fact of life.
In an environement where a career in the trades is less than acceptable, and help comes and goes no matter how much you pay or what benefits you offer?
It's a trade off. there's always a new guy or two around and like someone else said...Something gets screwed up EVERY time no matter how close you watch.
When I was a foreman on a crew of all grownups for whom framing was what they did, not just a job they had for this week? It wasn't needed. That was also 5000sqft or larger customs that paid well enough to have a crew of all grown ups.
In my experience, Stick Framing always makes a better, tighter job. I've done both. hundreds of each over the years in fact.
In some locations stick framing is the only option unless you want to go back and toe nail all the studs down after the fact to make an inspector happy.
I too started at 12 helping in the family business. That would have been 1978. Even back then every crew had one knucklehead.
Do they make you toenail the studs at the top plate too? If they didn't, then I wouldn't expect them to make me toenail the bottoms. If they did, I'd toe nail all the bottoms as I was nailing it down to the line.
Thanks Robert for the info. I did the tilt up version as you mentioned. Is stick framing when you toe nail the studs to the plates? I thought stick framing just meant framing instead of trusses.