Our next frame will have circular stairs (6′ radius inside). I’m looking for any tips, experience and pics any of you guys have. I’ve googled and googled and not really found much good info. I checked the archives here, but many of the posts are too old and don’t include pics.
Muchas gracias
Replies
Tim, someone posted a thread in this forum with loads of photos. I think it was called "Freeforming a Spiral Handrail".
Found it: Search for message 70866.1 by "riverman".
Here's the link. For some reason I couldn't copy and paste this earlier.
http://forums.taunton.com/n/main.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=70866.1&find=Search
Edited 4/28/2006 11:58 am ET by JoeBartok
Edited 4/28/2006 12:00 pm ET by JoeBartok
LOL... good luck Tim! If I know any framer who can pull it off though.... it's you. In fact if that set of plans was on my desk right now... you'd be the one I'd be asking about it! Looks like you're gonna be the one to figure it out for us.
Seriously though, most of the circular stairs I've seen on houses around here were manufactured off site. Any way you can get in touch with Jed Dixon? I watched him frame a set of curved stairs at JLC-Live about three years ago. Can't recall all of the particulars though so I probably should have paid more attention. I remember alot of 1/4" plywood laminations though. Let me dig around, I think I have his email address somewhere if you need it.
Brian,
Long time now talk. I just got my new Headcutter and should try it out week after next. We just got done with a 3000sq (still have windows to hang) single story with one really big cut up roof :-) 200+sheets for the roof. http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/9645221/142175936.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/9645221/142175935.jpg
I always seem to show up for Jed's class about half way. I'll try and track him down, if you have his email, that'd be great. I talked to the boss today and he is thinking of not doing the circ stair, but we'll see. My recommendation was to have a stair shop do it or have me do it. I've been researching it all week and coming up with a game plan, so I know I can do it in a day or less, depending on my help. It'd probably get a wrought (sp?) iron railing, so I'd have to get with the fabricator on a halfwall.
I remember Blue posting some pics, but I was hoping for some that were closer up.
I hooked up with Emma (from Bigfoot Tools) at JLC a month ago. She was all like, "oh yeah I remember you, we'll get you whatever you need, blah, blah, blah". So I gave her all my contact information and she took my order for the parts I need and said she'll get me one of the new improved headcutters (told her I didn't care what they cost).
Never heard from her and never got my parts. :( Guess I gotta get back on the horn to LV.
After a painfully slow March, we are absolutely SLAMMED with work right now. We worked until 8:30 last night wrapping up an addition and have been averaging close to 60 hours a week without working Saturdays. It's sounds hectic, but for now, the boys are enjoying the money (and so am I) so we're just rolling with it. We'll have to slow down some when it gets nasty hot out, so we might as well make the best of it while the framing weather is here. I've been drinking like three Monster energy drinks a day just to keep up!
Check your email. I'm going to send you Jed's email address.View Image
Brian,
It was convoluted, but they ended up cutting (shearing) the aluminum smaller than the dimensions I wanted because my emails were lost in their move. We'll see how this one works and she told me that she was going to wait to see how it works before shipping you one. She doesn't want me to make it known because they have a bunch of their other Headcutters being made.
I wouldn't take it personal. I asked her how business has been and it is insane how many casting they order a month compared to a couple of years ago. I think it was nearly 10x, but I hate to say that because I'm probably wrong. So they are busy busy.
I guess Stan is too far away to ship you a set, huh?
He might be a good source of info, though.
Tim,
Are you doing freestanding circular stairs or are they going to have a closet underneath ?
Tip one is to always start buliding from the top down. always always always.
Try to keep a minimum of 9" at the inside tread.
The house I just started has a set with an inside radius of 2'4" , but they aren't freestanding on the inside, only the outside.
I'll send you some pics of some sets i've done recently, but what I mainly do is make a tread pattern and cut all my treads then cut a 2x12 and a 2x4 for each step.
I really need to do this with pics because it is really hard to write it out, but nail a 2x at the top for the top tread to nail to, then nail a 2x12 to the outside of the tread and prop it up. nail a 2x4 to this 2x12 and then nail another tread to it. put a 2x12 on the outside and nail your 2x4 to it... etc.etc.etc. until you make it to the floor. check my photo page for clarification.
Hope I'm not confusing you.
John
http://photos.yahoo.com/kpatrix2002
Hey John, thanks for posting.
I've got a rough outline of how I'm going to approach it, but was looking for the experience and tricks from guys like you. Thanks for the info and pics. How's that house coming along?
That house is slowly coming together. I have a cherry picker coming wednesday to swing my lvl's into place.
It's only been four guys out there, I cut my crew down because my wife is due in 2 weeks and I want to profit a little better on this job.
I've been working like a dog all week but we have all the first floor walls up and we'll plumb and line monday then maybe do pickup on one of the other houses.... look for stair pics a week from today..
Check this out tuesday we started the house, just snapping lines and putting down the green plates. 95 degrees when we went home at 4.
Wednesday it never got above 70 then yesterday it was 90 and sunny.
Today we did siding on my house, hopefully i'll be moving in by september. But this weather...... august in texas is 100+ with 99% humidity
Congrats on the pregnancy, I'd ask "how'd that happen", but . . . . Had a new guy working with us a little. He is the cleanup, do everything the boss needs done guy. We are all sitting there at break and talking about a friend of ours who has 5 kids. New guys say "how does that happen anyway?". I yelled "get me an extension cord!! It's time to explain the facts of life" We are still laughing.
I look forward to the pics, but I'm starting to sweat thinking about the weather you've got down there. We've been about 70 and sunny most of the week, maybe a little cooler.
I can't wait to see the pics of the roof.
By the way, is this your first child? How old are you? Seems like you mentioned that before, but I forgot.
Tim, if you have back issues of FHB, you might look for the article in the Sept. 95 issue on building a circular stair on-site. Helped my dad frame up a stair about 15 yrs ago and we had done it real similar to the methods in the article. It was a cool little project to work on.
Mike
Sorry no pics but here's a try at explaining:
Build the stair in place. Lay out both radiuses. inside and outside. Then measure in 12'' in from the inner (smaller) radius and strike another radius on the floor. This is the walk line. Most codes require 9'' 's on the walk line. Plumbing down the upper landing onto the floor and some trial and error with your tape as a makeshift trammel will help you find an appropriate center for these arc's. Using trammel points step off the walk line every 9 ''. Now snap a line from the center point through these marks on the walk line. This will describe the treads rise to rise. Now use these lines, where they cross the inside and outside radius as a layout to build two curved 2x4 walls set the studs behind the riser line. Use plywood to cut the plates, add 3-1/2’ to the smaller radius and subtract 3-1/2” form the larger to describe the plywood plates. Use a centering head and combination square blade to mark the endcuts on the plates. This will allow you to use multiple pieces of ply wood together to make a continuous arc. Once the walls are built take another 2x4 and lay out the rise sequence on it. Add the thickness of the subfloor onto the bottom the story pole and subtract the tread thickness and cut the story pole. Now take a water level or laser and transfer theses marks onto your studs. 1st rise to first stud, 2cd rise to second stud and so on. Mark the front of each stud. Now if its paint grade I've never worked on a stain grade stringer with this application, we use 1/4 '' luan 5 plys if there a support wall 7 if not, and yellow glue rolled on with a seven inch roller. We staple the plys to the studs using the marks as a guide. When you get to the last layer shoot the staple through some half inch plywood strips. This will help you remove the staple after the glue dries. Once you have both stringers stapled onto your radius walls, you can use a laser or water level and flexible rule to mark the carriage level lines from the story pole and a spirit level to mark out the riser line by plumbing up from the layout on the floor. We use a recip saw to cut out the open treads. The outside radius stringer has to be mortised. We make a jig out of plywood which represents the finish line of the riser and tread and allotted space for a router collet. Also room is left for wedges behind the tread and risers exactly like a typical housed stringer. The rise and run is marked out on the outside radius in the same manner as the inside and then marked with the appropriate distance from collett to bit so that the jig can be attached to the stringer and routed out. One thing to remember is the the last three layers of plywood have to be staple free so they can be routed. To do this as above we take about a 2” X 16” strip of half inch ply and nail through the the strip and then through last three layers of the larger radius this way after the glue dries you can grab onto the ply and wrestle out the staples and have the last three plys staple free and ready for routing. Its been a while, but I did this day in and out for a couple years in the early nineties. I hope this helps.
Thanks for the info. I'm not sure if I misunderstand, or not, but these stairs will be framed, with walls on both sides and probably carpeted, not finished. If they were finished, I wouldn't be the guy to build them :=)
Thanks for the post though. It gave me some more ideas.
Tim: What is your finished floor to finished floor height?
How many degrees of turn? I will be happy to run some numbers on my calculator and give my two cents if you need them.
Good luck......building curved stuff is fun.
Stan
Stan,
The finished floor to finished floor is 119 3/8" with the calculator, but in the field it'll be 119 1/2". So it'll be 16 rises @7 7/16" and 15 treads. The plan doesn't show how many degrees the arc will be, but the the radius to the inside of the stairway is 6' 3-1/2".
I'm drawing it out on ACAD to get a good feeling for laying out the stair on the deck. The framing part of it seems to be fairly straight forward. I noticed doing some research that at the 12" walkline, I need to have 10" tread depth according to the 2003 IRC.
Any tips you've got on laying it out would be great :-)
Tim, have you been to the Sketchup User Forum yet? Unbelievable resource.
There are folks there who, if given the specs for your staircase, would not only model it up in skp, but show you a customized tutorial for how it is done.
BTW, is that code requirement for 10 inches of stair run, or is it for 10 inches of actual tread depth as you said?
Gene,
Thanks for the tip. I was drawing it in ACAD last night because it would have taken too long to try Sketchup and I wanted to really understand all the layout before I have to actually lay it out, probably Wed morning. What I'll do is take a pic of the plan and then go to the Sketchup forum.
About the 10" depth, I'm not totally sure. What do you think? http://www.arcways.com/IRC2003.pdf Check out page 6 and tell me how you interpret that. I can always call the inspectors, but I'm pretty sure that if I go with a 10" tread depth for layout, but then have a 1" overhang, I'm still legal and I do have the room.
Something to work on when I get home tonight.
Tim, here is a quick workup from me, and I used Cadkey, which is much like ACad.
I did the circle at the radius you specified, then popped in a 40" stair width circle, and figured the arc per step using a 9.5" run (not tread width) at the 12" walkline.
A 9.5" run will yield a tread width of somewhere around 10-3/4", depending on finish.
Gene,
Here is the stairway. I didn't get a chance to check on the code today and I won't get to start the stairway until Thursday or probably Friday.
The radius of the stairway is 6' to the wall, 6' 3 1/2" to the inside and then from there it's 3'7" inside-inside.
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/10043887/143672666.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/10043887/143674037.jpg
Tim, I've done a number of rough framed circulars in my days and there's a few things that you should be aware of.
First, it's not uncommon for the plans to show a stair, and a radius that will not pass code. That's the most important thing to note as you move into the layout phase of your stairs.
I know that it's hard to believe, but sometime Architects don't draw perfect plans. As such, I'm always skeptical about the radiuss given, and it's rare that I accept it and use it without some sort of tweaking. Sometimes, I just have to tweak the radius, sometimes I have to tweak the width of the stairs and quite often, I have to tweak the beginning location and the ending location.
The first thing that I noted on your plans was the convoluted manner in which the architect dictated the center of the radius. Hes forcing you to measure the stair center off a wall that has no direct bearing on the stair itself. While that may be a correct location, it just seems convoluted to me.
The next big thing that catches my eye is that the location of the first riser seems to change dramatically at the top of the stair. The first floor seems to show that the top riser will be at the doubled header. It looks like it would be about two tread widths and from the kitchen wall. When you look at the second floor plan, it seems like it is three tread widths. Of course, the architect has conveniently decided to not draw out the risers on the first floor plan, so you can't count them to determine where the actual starting point should be......perplexing to me.
My next worry wort thought is the lack of a dimension to show where the architect wants the bottom riser to start. Did they just pick a point without measuring....or do they actually know where the stairs start and end? Again...this is perplexing to me.
The other major consideration is the headroom if there is a basement. Quite often, on stair systems like these, getting proper headroom underneath to the basement is quite a chore. It often involves some very creative solutions and quite often dictates the entire structual sytstem that will govern this installation. If you are building on a slab, then this isn't a consideration.
The one tip that I always employ is to make the inside radius, and the starting and ending riser positions advantageous to me. I'd toss out that radius in a heartbeat and insert my own, as well as tweaking the width to facilitate the use of standard nominal dimension lumber as my inside radius. Today's standards dictate an inside radius of about 7", so I typically make that my starting point in the calculation. I like to use two 2x4's on the flat to create my inside radius. I then calculate out the desired run at the walkpath to check to make sure I wll meet code and then backtrack to find my radius.
Most of our circular stairs involve 1/4 cirlces, so the math is fairly straightforward. Your segment is smaller, but the math will remain similar.
Most production builders would not accept that sorta' straight portion of the stairs in conjunction with the circular section that you are showing in your drawings. It wreaks havoc with the rail. Maybe your stairs might have a better rail because the lower section does have some curve to it, but the tread width would be much wider and therefore require some sort of transitioning from the circular section to the oval section. I don't know enough about building rails though....you better chat some more with Stan or Riverman.
Oh, yeah...my technique: we build our inside radius on the flat on the floor and stand it up all at once. Before we get all that in the way, we mark out the inside radius, mark the inside 7" steps and then extend a line out (like the spokes on a wheel) to locate the outside radius on the supporting walls. We don't actually snap lines, but just put a pencil mark at each point on the bottom wall plates. We'll plumb up from there to locate the riser faces.
blue
tim a picture is worth a thousand words, check out will hollady's book "roof cutters secrets" he has an excellent simple plan for rough framing circular stairs that will add to your ingenuity. he of course has it all laid out step by step, good stuff.
also if you want to get all carried away and even if you don't for a great read and reference check out george di christini's, book "the tangent method for continious spiral stair layout". again george does an excellent job of explaining all the steps. i don't know if that man is still alive or not, but he is one of my hero's. he is a third generation stair builder i believe, and he started as an apprentice in his fathers san francisco stair building shop as a teen and made it his career. he wrote the book on stair building in his 70's? so you can imagine the experience in those pages. also i remember him writing that his book was he (di christini) putting pen to paper as an addition and update to many older manuals on stair building that i have never even heard of and that are probably very difficult to find. ( i imagine a reference to a lost art, way of doing things)
ps you may remember me as skids, when i moved and got a new puter it was just easier to sign in as a new user. good luck tim.
I think I just ordered that book at Amazon. I was using Will's book as a reference, but looking for "more" info. I order so many books at Amazon, that I forget what I order until it shows up :-)
Thanks for replying.
Segundo,
Thanks for the book references
10-4 The stringer lamination techinique might not be applicable to your situation. But the layout process I still recommend checking out. It will also show you the exact shape of each tread minus the overhang. If the stringers are both housed and you could get away with no apron board or if you could install it after treads and risers (which could prove to be a task). You could move the wall on the opposite side of the line of the smaller radius I described in the other post and use jacks and 2X4 plates and let the tread travel into the wall on each end and then fasten the riser onto the stud. Remember to let the riser go behind the tread so it can be attached to the back of the tread. Also use good glue. I've always used yellow glue, but that urethene construction adhesive is strong as ####. I might not be afraid to give it a try. Be careful to avoid squeaks, so scews might be preferable to nails. Good luck - with a good plan this will be fun - with a bad one it could be a nightmare.
Tim, I’ve attached an image with some more info regarding the radius of curvature of a helix to supplement the Geometric/Algebraic Solution. This method is elegant in that all the components of the position vector, R, are defined in terms of the same parameter, t, the angle of revolution seen in plan.
I needed a textbook for guidance on this one! And I’m skipping about four pages of calculus. The text defines a velocity vector, its magnitude, a unit tangent vector, the derivatives of the foregoing, and solves the formula for the helix radius of curvature. (Many solutions and texts substitute a for the radius of the circle forming the base of the cylinder.)
You can manipulate the formula algebraically to get the same equation given in the web page or use it as written.
Hope this helps.
Joe Bartok
Thanks for posting. I'll get with our trim guy too, to see if he has any suggestions or ideas for the trim. If I leave a 2x width between the stair and the walls, he could put a skirt board in. We'll see.