As a custom builder, yesterday I was considering the work our company does in cleaning up after sub-contractors. We have stated policies, can back-charge and expect subs to clean up after themselves, but many times it is like cleaning up behind 3 year olds.
When I was a frame sub, we always cleaned, usually real good on Fridays. I would never have left a jobsite in the conditions I see on a regular basis…. created by our subs. I am typically easy going and hesitate to confront and back charge, but several situations of untidiness yesterday ticked me off.
Perhaps I am understanding more what I put my mother through…oh yea…and now (sometimes) my wife.
Replies
TX
I cant stand triping over other peoples garbage.
I think if people can get by without having to clean up after themselves they will but backcharge them one time and that will send the message that your serious!
One thing I always notice about a tradesman is how he works, and keeping the sight clean makes him/her more productive and more safe. Reflects on there professionalism as well. Guys sitting there tools down in a pile of there trash and then having to spend the next 15 minutes looking for the damn thing arnt all that productive.
I remember reading about Piffins method of clean up, if I remember right he says that by cleaning up around the site at the end of the day, or whenever, it allows him to check on the work of the subs without actualy appearing to be looking over there shoulders. I'm sure it sets some example as well.
As the GC it would give you the opportunity to inspect on a more casual atmoshpere with out subs thinking your taking a microscope to there work.
I always worry that a potential customer, or even the HO if its a occupied house, will see the crap laying around and wonder what the hell kind of slob is doing this job! I dont want that.
Doug
I think you're totally in the right. As a sub, I've been super miffed over it. And it snowballs. If nobody else is going to be held accountable, whats the next guys motivation to clean up after himself, especially when doing so includes buckets of stuff he didnt generate?
I WISH more GC's would be a harda$$ about that. I do clean up after myself. I hate having to clean up after an electrician and the drywallers and the insulators - - whoever, just so I can set up. Last year I wrote a new clause for the contract which basically says if you want me to clean up after everyone before me I'll be happy to run a shop vac for a really healthy hourly rate. With the understanding that I'll be exceedingly thorough at that point.
"Sometimes when I consider what tremendous consequences come from little things, I am tempted to think -- there are no little things" - Bruce Barton
The policy for the remodeling company I work is, we clean up after rough in's of plumbing and electric, on trim out they clean up after themshelves.
We also scrap out drywall jobs and clean up the dust/splatter off the floor.
It's done that way to save cost's our laborer is a lot cheaper then a $80/hr plumber or electritian, as for the drywallers, they're just pigs.
We clean up daily and also have the job-sites extra neat, clean, and organized on Fridays, last thing I want is a customer looking at a mess all weekend.
CAG,
Not my drywall sub. He scraps out consistently, when hanging. Then he covers the floor with rosin paper, before finishing. All the drops of mud get rolled up and thrown away. I hate scraping floors.
I use some of the same subs as my former boss. They won't look at a broom on his jobs. Just used to him handling it all. On mine, they know, it's their baby. I don't have time to clean up after everyone else. I make a big enough mess myself.
Just a matter of letting your expectations known.
Brudoggie
we got a contractor that will back charge, he doesnt care who you are. and his rate not cheap. written in the contract. He also has fifty dollar fine per person for not wearing safety equipment.
Our systems are similar.....we do some clean-up. Leave your lunch scraps and trash, coke cans, etc. .....you are in trouble with me.
The condition of the site is a reflection on and of your/their work. Ages ago I worked on high end vintage autos. Regardless what they were brought in for, they left cleaned inside and out.
Mike
in colorado it seems everyone cleans up after themselves except plumbers and electricians and if you want them to do it they want thier regular hourly rate. i recently saw an ad in the paper that read PROFESIONAL PLUMBING AND ELECTRICAL CLEAN UP FOR HALF THE RATE. so one brilliant man is doing clean up for about $40/hr!
Formally a drywall and painting sub.
We got paid by the foot to do the work . If you had requested it cleaned up , it goes in the bid. No problem but it doesnt go in the job for free.
No charge for throwing drywall out the windows in each room. You want it in the dumpster at the street? Youre gonna pay or we start somewhere else in the morning. I never did it for free. Dont mind doing it though just say somthing before we start and let it be agreed on. Were good to go.
Drywall mud on the floor is an up charge to get it cleaned up. Same as above . Theres a lot of homeowners that do it every night to save the charges . GC furnishes labor , we didnt . Pretty expensive to hire a sub to sweep.
Commercial always furnishes labor .
Tim
Memphest 2006
November 18th
Just give me a broom, a dustpan and a trash can and I will clean it up.
At the last Target job, they put an "A" brace on their push broom so they could chain it so nobody would steal it or use it.
Here, in San Diego, we have a contractor [DEB] that seems to prefer a cluttered jobsite. Some sort of corporate attitude that the more scrap on the floor, the more money they are saving by not hiring one of those guys holding up a "Will Work For Food" signs by the I-5 on ramp to clean it up. Then, on the day before completion, they would threaten all the subs with $2500 backcharges if ALL of their scrap was not cleaned up by the next day.
~Peter
"Commercial always furnishes labor"Not neccessarily true. I'm finishing a commercial job with a GC that didn't have a laborer on site once in the 11 months the project has been under construction. They only had carpenters onsite occassionaly as required. The site super was bound by contract to be on site 40 hours a week. We were lucky if he was there 20.
So who did the clean up?
Edit ; I guess since yall were the only ones there the answer is clear. So did you get paid to do it ?
Tim
Memphest 2006
November 18th
Edited 8/31/2006 7:38 am by Mooney
he tinks he saved money by doing the clean up ibstead of the subs...
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Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I think the GC did the pulled the "clean up your stuff or there's going to be a blanket change order for us to do it for you" stunt on each of the subs. The (hired) final cleaning crew was cleaning up tons of stuff that you would expect to have been done a lot sooner in the project.
Clean up is another angle for the GC to make his living .
Once a sub starts it free , its a given.
The charge back of clean up would not work but once with me if the agreement wasnt set. The next time it would be built in or I would work for someone else .
I had a GC use a cheaper hanger one time but he wanted me to finish it . I wouldnt give him a bid till the job was done although he had a set price from me on hanging and finishing. So when I turned in the bid that was reflective of the extra work he refused for he realized it was actualy higher over all and not cheaper. He asked why and I told him . He ended up geting another finisher to qoute over the phone and take it . I did another job instead . No harm no foul as we both understood. I got the next house from him because he said he only wanted to write one check and deal with one person.Yea right . If his venture had worked out he wouldnt have needed me any more except in a bind. It was a business decision on both our parts although he wasnt admitting it . Its a lot like poker to me . Ive always considered those things a game between two people trying to take money off the table from the other one.
Tim Memphest 2006
November 18th
Tim
I'm starting to see why you want to go to the dog track in Memphis!
1-800-betsoff use it if you need to! :)
Doug
Yup.
Tim Memphest 2006
November 18th
What this industry needs is one serious recession to get these feelings of entitlement out of the heads of these poorly educated, overpaid hacks.
You don't clean up after yourself cause you think you're too good and important to do so? Get the freak off my job.
My business decision is simply this: I'm married, so I get enough $hit. I'm not about to pay someone else to give me more.
When I hire someone, the job is expected to include setup, performance, and clean up. Cut a part out of that, you cut a part out of the final check.
Now if I wish to cut a part out of that, I'll make it clear and expect the price to reflect it accordingly. But commonly, I don't shop bids. I shop performance. Its a question of who is going to do the job correctly AND the way I want?
Pete, do you GC new or are you speaking as a HO?I like a clean job myself and that is what happens because I demand it.But a comment from over 35 years in this business -
It is very common for new builders to provide a labour forrce to clean up sites, especially when they have several houses in the same locale. They shop price and push subs hard. It is simply less expensive for them to do it that way.The remodeling side of the industry is completely different. Safety and neatness is paramount. People are living in the house and next door. The remodelor who doesn't keep a clean site can expect to lose a lot of good referalls. So my subs get to clean up after themselves for the most part.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I would rather the HO clean up for me if I am working T&M. I'll usually ask first, but will just do it since it is part of the job.
If I'm on a bid job, I keep it as clean as necessary until complete when I go through and do all the cleaning.
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I dont see a problem.
You lay it out all nice and clear like that and its simple .
Its the ones that dont say anything till its time to write the check.
Tim Memphest 2006
November 18th
I agree...........been there from both sides .....as a sub and as the gc.........I hate a cluttered, messy site and won't work on one.....I've always cleaned up as we go....even if I have to throw some one else's trash out, I let them know the next time their truck might be the disposal site<g>....
As GC it's up front that any time we have to clean up behind someone ,its automatic back charge....and done that day......no excuses........a clean site is the first step to a safe site
Dan
Hard, but well said.
When I was a frame sub, I did not charge more than market, and in my mnd...clean up was a part. It pays off in HO and GC relations, and gives the sub a better shot at future work.....like others have said...it is also safer, faster in the long run and creates a better work environment.
Edited 9/7/2006 4:39 pm ET by txlandlord
I'd rather not have my subs throwing materials out of a window with no intentions of picking it up afterwards. Better to leave your mess inside. Then again, I'd never hire you or anyone else like you again to do work for me so....I just have to ask, If you are cooking and drop food on the floor, do you pick it up or is that not your "Job" also? Cause ya know, cooks are way above everybody else. ;-)
I just have to ask, If you are cooking and drop food on the floor, do you pick it up or is that not your "Job" also? Cause ya know, cooks are way above everybody else. ;-)
My guess is Tim's got a dog at the house to do that stuff for him!
I do have a dog that does that and does the prewash on the plates.
Tim Memphest 2006
November 18th
mama had a flock of weiny dogs that did that duty. they would stake out different post under the table, and when food fell, oh what a rucket. But still they did not like mama mushroom cassrole either.
Ours is a Boston and very athletic.
It started out with unseasoned pop corn. We would throw it at him a piece at a time . He started catching it like a dog will bite air being blown in his mouth snapping .
He would have got the name Snapper if he had shown that earliar.
Anyway he got good at it where he didnt miss .
We have dropped somthing and hes caught it in the air.
The kid plays with him all the time grabbing stuff before him, so the dog has that feature too.
The result is that he will snap anything before he realizes he doesnt really want it.
The other day I dropped part of a bannana by accident and he snapped it . He threw up a few minutes later . Cant be good .
Hes eaten a rent check and one money order for 550. Did I mention hes a pretty expensive dog?
Tim Memphest 2006
November 18th
Sounds like you didnt understand it to me .
Or didnt read it .
Most GCs have labor on site working . Smaller ones dont .
Remodeling is not a question in this thread as far as Im concerned. It has to be cleaned up every day. Everything has to be buttoned up, floor swept and a safe job site left.
The author of the thread is building new homes . That's what Im responding to.
If he wants the job site cleaned every day like a remodeling job then the billing will reflect it if that's what you are referring to.
The bid work only will be a cheaper price if that is chosen.
Were you thinking subs did it for free?
I start taping when the last sheet is hung . That's why Ill throw out the scrap free. But I wont carry it to a dumpster with out charging for it .
Now think about this for a minute ;
Would you want me to charge a homeowner the same price as you ?
The homeowners price will be cheaper because they will do the clean up with out bitching. They deserve a cheaper price and their checks are good and I dont have to hunt them down to get paid . I wont have to wait 30 days for the check to be put in the mail or hear it .
From there I would rather be doing commercial which has a labor crew on the job and pays for materials up front and puts them on the job at their own expense. Further more Im not responsible for their theft. Im just paid to do the work and not be a janitor for better money.
So really Im not interested in people like you . I would be really happy my competition works for you . Id laugh every time I make deposits thinking about it.
Tim
Memphis 2006
November 18th
Edited 8/31/2006 10:37 pm by Mooney
I just read where you spend 500 per week at Depot .
Im really scared my family will starve with out your work.
Be shaken by
the lost account.
From:
FlaCarpenter <!----><!---->
6:29 pm
To:
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(9 of 21)
78123.9 in reply to 78123.1
I was in my local HD on Tuesday as the clerks were changing the price tags on the generators from $599 to $699. I live in Florida where Ernesto exited yesterday....I needed a tablesaw as I am doing a flooring job and they have the DeWalt and the Ridgid for big bucks. I asked the tool guy where the $99 tablesaws were and he acted like I was a was a fool and said to me "Why do you want to buy junk when you can get the good stuff right here?"
I got pissed and picked up the cordless Ryobi frigging CAULKING GUN and went off on the guy! I spend upwards of $500 a week there and as I walked by the GM I told him "No More, I'll try Lowe's until they piss me off too."
Tim
Memphest 2006
November 18th
Edited 8/31/2006 10:38 pm by Mooney
My apologies if I misunderstood your post. It read like you were too good to clean up after yourself and would sooner walk over your mess if someone wasn't paying you to clean it up.
It read like you were too good to clean up after yourself my boss told me today to get the crew and clean up next week. we got 17 people and not one knows how to push a broom. They are too good to sweep. I been there 23 years if I dont sweep the floor it will not get done. I prove it last month. did not sweep, empty the cans for over 90 days. it did not get done. They climbed over the garabage first.
I dont mind cleaning up anymore than doing the work.
Heres the point ;
I try to charge for everything I can get away with because all I have to sell is labor . Thats it . So if Im on a detail cleaning up with out being paid , Im not slapping rock up or runnig the bazooka taping . Thats known as down time to me as it doesnt pay a dime if it isnt charged above the work.
If I ran into a client that wanted it done and didnt want to pay for it , then Im not interrested .
Often the differences in us making it in this business is using smarts. Im loyal to no one and Im only doing it for the money. Thats really all I ever cared about . Yes thats partly bad and I know it . Here I have no loyalty so Im an azz hole . Green money is the only ting I have trust in around the trades. I used to say most of my career ; I love to work and I love to get paid. I dont love to work anymore but I still love to get paid.
If you were paying attention to what I just wrote theres still two problems .
One is Im not loyal , so IM not a team player . I hate business relationships . I feel like I can walk any time when Im not under agreement . If I find somthing better Im looking for the door. Better money or easiar work has always drawn me because of financials.
The next thing is I dont love to work anymore. So automatically Im looking for the easiest way . I do it because Im driven to but I used to get a kick out of it .
So now I use those bad things to match me perfectly including the good things.
Im a landlord and Im an addicted real estate investor.
I think every one should try to make lemonade from lemons.
I would not have ever been a good coach . I never felt like I was a good leader so I thought I was underpar doing it . There are people that do it much better than me although I have the knowledge . I dont have the charisma and I know it .
People pick different things when they feel they arent good at others.
Dealing , Im comfortable . So selling for a top price , I enjoyed.
Now after all these years Im not too bad at it . So I just try to do it more than working.
You were probably right in that I wouldnt be the best for you to hire and I wouldnt be looking for you either in a client . No disrespect meant . You dont want to pay for clean up, but you are also kinda tight with your spending . I could deal with the first one by masking it but the second one is the game stopper. If I cant chisel some extra money from you I need to move on . Theres too many out there thats easiar.
On the other hand you need a sub that doesnt know what his costs are and can be led to thinking keeping a clean job is just the professional way of doing things . That might build his ego and if it did , you might win what you want.
Its a game to me .
Tim Memphest 2006
November 18th
My apologies if I misunderstood your post
Good move Fla. Keep the peace around here. You continue to impress.
Where are U in Fla? My wife is from West Palm.
I'm up near the Cocoa Beach, Cape Canaveral area.
I loath a messy work site, and sometimes clean up after others before I start.
I am a drywall contractor, when we install we clean up. When we tape we tidy up every bit of scrap paper empty mud boxes, all our coffee cups, but we don't sweep.
But we give a very good price and exceptional work.
I've been framing cf steel studs recently and I went to work in a unit where the roof framers had been eating their lunch, a giant, disgusting mess, flies all over food on the floor. I told off the site super. He more or less shrugged.
I believe it should be general human courtesy, not to mention good business practice, that we do our best for the next person weather it be the painter or the owner.
If I do a bang up job, frame everything perfect, easy access for the plumbers, electricians, drywallers, but I leave a mess all over the floor, how will they remember us.
Professionalism is key. What do you offer that the others don't?
Besides, I'm much more productive in a clean environment. It just makes sense.
It seems your approach is what I look for in a sub.
Drywall scraps in the dumpster? We are building new homes and can almost always position the dumpster just outside the door.
Mr. Drywaller, please (while your carrying the pieces) throw your scraps in the dumpster.
Mooney and others: What does it take to scrap a house? 1.5 hours OK, charge me. Most all crews have lower paid helpers for this work, but also experienced hands should be able to do it faster. How much time do you think it takes me to arrange a clean-up crew, get them onsite, give them instructions, inspect their clean-up work afterward, receive a seperate invoice, run the invoice and seperate sub paperwork through bookkeeping, mail or deliver the check, etc. What is my time / office help time worth?
MEMPHEST 2006
Edited 9/7/2006 11:05 am ET by txlandlord
Just dont take this personal.
"Mooney and others: What does it take to scrap a house? 1.5 hours OK, charge me. Most all crews have lower paid helpers for this work, but also experienced hands should be able to do it faster. How much time do you think it takes me to arrange a clean-up crew, get them onsite, give them instructions, inspect their clean-up work afterward, receive a seperate invoice, run the invoice and seperate sub paperwork through bookkeeping, mail or deliver the check, etc. What is my time / office help time worth? "
I guess we could run a thread on whos resposebility is it ?
I mentioned a while back in this thread that I gave a higher price to follow some hangers work. So lets get off the clean up for a minute.
The house was bad nailed as it had broken paper . There were many boxes to prefill from missing 1/2 inch. The house wasnt scrapped out and he didnt have any intention of doing it . After all he never did it using me before so he wasnt concerned .
I estimated 4 hrs for two men to get it online to be ready for a bazooka. Bazookas dont prefill as they run thin mud. The idea hanging in front of them is tight work. High nails catch the nail spotter and tear the blades up. Nails were driven too low and many were right beside boxes which is another no no for a nail spotter. That time wasnt figgured but I would have prevented it .
Now lets talk about material delevery and responsebility. Whose material is it ? For years it was common here for subs to either deliver or cause to deliver materials. The painter carries it in his van and its charged to his account . So, when he leaves the job , its still his and he has not been paid for it . Its still his responsebility.
The taper carries the mud in the house and plugs in somthing to keep it from freezing in the van. Whose mud is it ?
I could generate a list of things GCs do to get subs to carry the jobs. These practices have been in use for a long time and might as well be set in stone when whats expected of a sub. When in reality the sub has no business doing those things or taking responsebility of them. IMO.
In my view my friend.
Subs provide a wholesale service because they actually get a sub total of the work performed. There are management fees tacked on to him or her from the GC . So the GC gets paid to manage the subs often to the tune of 20 percent . Also when a sub puts the material on his account he isnt paid for it till the GCs draw is in his account. The GC also has picked up 20 percent off those materials .
In addition clean up and general labour is a bid item and often is negotiable with the clients if they choose to help. Im sure they arent told the fact that their poor subs are doing it for free. You think?
Just 1 1/2 hours to scrap out. Its amazing the GC has that point of view day in and day out . Problem is Walmart doesnt operate that way or any other store . While Im already at the doctors office he could treat several things for the same office visit but for some reason he wont .
I realize you said bill me , but Im trying to set the mind set subs get. They may never say anything or they might . I choose to not say anything so you wont have a problem. I just bid it in if I know thats the way you want it . All you know is Im some higher than other subs but your job site is clean and the work is orderly. Either way , Im not doing it for free . What you may not know is another GC may be getting the same work done cheaper than you . Theres always reasons. If you dont show up on Friday to make pay roll to me , I have to make it and go home unpaid myself. If that were to happen you wouldnt get any favors from me including 1 1/2 hours. If the flow went in my direction every now and then , you might get such a gift .
For some reason Im having trouble getting my view point set with out misunderstandings. I didnt say I ran a dirty job. I said I didnt clean them for free. I might hide the fact , but I am getting paid for it . That doesnt have another option. So the result is you are going to pay your men or me to do it and yes it will get done . What ever it takes to try and make you happy and somtimes hiding the truth will do it .
Tim Memphest 2006
November 18th
OK.
I guess that bottom line is that I expect subs to clean-up after themselves, and my subs know my expectations. I insist on written contracts that include a clean-up statement. If it is not done, do not expect full payment. If a subs mess lingers after he he is "finished" and causes inconvience and delays construction I will provide clean-up and backcharge based on the written contract.
Considering the work I mentioned to get a cleanup crew onsite, I do not mind being charged a reasonable sum for a one stop shop. I add convienience to my schedule, the subs gets compensation and everybody is happy.
I am looking for team players, and those who are not will not be working for me. My framer receives over $100,000.00 in contracts from me during a year. He is framing for me now and the site is clean. He charges me no more than the market rate. He knows who butters his bread.
It is my job, my money and I call the shots. If you can't submit, hit the road. Otherwise, I am an easy going sweetheart, loyal to team players and pay on time all the time. Actually, I am carrying a $1,500.00 loan to my framer, made two weeks before he started and dispersed over the course of his frame draws. We have a great long term relationship.
So in the end the GC has the option of doing it his way and the sub does too. Thats fair which is what I was getting at. We`re back to a poker game again in my view.
All you need is two parties to agree to make a deal . But it does take two.
Im sure that your subs do the clean up to have your work . Thats great for both of you if it works. What ever works. Ive seen it for 35 yrs. I chose not to buy into it but thats me.
Tim
Memphest 2006
November 18th
This thread is so timely as we started work on my 2200 sq ft renovation today!The PM told me he is going to hire a day laborer to clean the site so we don't have to pay skilled subs $$ to do that as they would knock off an hour early to clean...Ed
Your point is good, but your subs should and you can expect them to do some degree of rough clean-up. The day laborers should take care of details and do a more through job.
I've GC'd my house and hired several subs. I had to tell each one NOT to clean up after themselves. It's a lot easier on my mind, spending half a day or an evening cleaning up myself, than paying their usual hourly rate to push a broom.
I know how you feel. The guy I work with seldom cleans up--he walks around ankle-deep in mess all the time. Tripping on boards and tools--stepping on drill bits and light bulbs, cabinet screws and hinges, etc. I constantly clean up because I think it's dangerous, not to mention we lose things--can't find the drill bit he needs, so work stops for ten minutes while we sift through garbage to find it. He literally will drop whatever tool he was using when he's done using it, especially tape measures and pencils. Then when he needs it again in two minutes, he can't find it--unless I have been through and put it in my pocket.
Maybe I'm a little nuts but part of the job is start clean and leave clean! I often find that five mins cleaning clears my head and makes the whole job easier. In some places my work area is better kept than other parts of the house. (some people make me wonder)
If you need work in TX near Houston....you are my kind of sub.
For fun tell your wife she reminds you of your mother!
I'm laughing already.
Have a great day
Cliffy