I’ve been reading quite a bit about closed cell foam insulation here in FHB. I’m in the process of removing the “rolled insulation” and sheetrock from my basement to redo the wiring. I’d like to spray in the polyeurathane closed cell insulation but when I look at the small spray cans in the hardware store, none of them specifically say “polyeurathane” or “closed cell” or anything of the sort. There are a lot of other chemical names on the can but none that relate to the articles in FHB. Can anyone give me a specific brand name, or a manufacturer’s name of a closed cell foam? Or for that matter, what is the best way for me to proceed with this project, like maybe the small spray cans are not how I should be going about this project. Please help! Second question: Compared to the “rolled-in insulation”, how much more insulation value is the sprayed-in foam insulation have? I see in several advertisements for the rolled insulation sold by the major home centers that the R-value is not very high. It could be that I am ignorant of just what these values mean. For example, does an R-48 value work well in an attic, or does R-16 work better from an insulating quality. I guess quite simply, is “the higher the better” approach the way to go? Many thanks.
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Let's start with basics
the R-value refers to resistance to heat loss, so the higher number generally means more resistance to loss of heat = better for you.
The little cans of spray foam are not the way to cover a large area. They are for filling small cracks and gaps.
generally7 when we talk of spray foam, it is applied by a commercial outfit, but you can buy it DIY from Fomofoam or Tigerfoam online.
For your application, the best and least expensive would be to buy sheets of the blue or pink foam insulating panels 2" thick and cut it to fit, then seal the edges with the can foam.
What you refer to as rolled is probably fibreglas batts, the least effective form of insulation. At it's best, it delivers you R3.4 per inch of thickness.
The foam panel material I mention delivers about R-5 per inch.
Sprayed in place polyurethene delivers up to R-7.2 per inch tho some studies show it reconciling down to about r-6.4 per inch.
Another type of sprayed in place is an open celled that delivers about R3.5 per inch is all, so if you hire it done, be sure to look for the closed cell polyurethene
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Thank you for taking the time to respond; it was exactly what I needed.
Paul, you deserve an award for the most patient and perfect answer to an otherwise loaded question. Good job!
now help us all fit a big door in a small hole.
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Where are you located?
It is possible to get DIY kits.
http://www.tigerfoam.com/?gclid=CMD7sZespo8CFRFSagodWlt5Rw
http://www.rhhfoamsystems.com/
But usually it is cheaper to have the pros do it.
I'm in Apple Valley, Minnesota. This project is not one where I can totally rip out the existing walls and insulation and do the entire job at once. I have to do this piece-meal, a little at a time. Besides, I've seen the "professionals" work - I'm definitely not impressed but thanks for the response.
Since you are in such a cold climate I would go with closed cell if you can afford it. If you do use closed cell, spray it in 'lifts'. Otherwise the exothermic reaction can get trapped and and cause cracking and separation from the framing.
Piffin said it extremely well!
I might add to that the reason Fiberglas is such a poor insulator even though it may have a decent R value is because the way all insulation is tested..
It's done in labratory conditions (perfect) zero humidity, zero wind and only a 10 degree differance between inside and outside.
Real world there is humidity, maybe as high as 100% which greatly affects fiberglas and quickly can drop it's rating to near zero..
Real world there is some air movement even if the movement is only inside the stud bay. Cold air falls while warm air rises.. thus inside a wall that's heated to 70 degrees with an outside temp below zero the warm inside air causes the air nearest the wall to climb and the air nearest the outside wall to fall. Thus scrubbing off heat. Fiberglas is also used for furnace filters because air moves through it so easily.
Foam is unaffected by air movement nor water.. so even though the R value may be similar foam is a far better insulator..
It's more expensive but well worth it..
Am I mistaken in believing that the can and the DIY stuff are are low and medium density foam respectively (with correspondingly lower R values) and also my belief that the can is open cell not closed cell?My understanding - please correct me - is that the open cell still requires a vapor barrier, whereas closed cell does not.I did a small project the way Piffin suggested because getting a pro in would'nt have made sense for the size of job involved, Ran the rigid foam on an old blade on the table saw set a fraction under the top of the foam to control the dust so I could get exactly the right width, then sealed the back corners first, immediately pushed the rigid piece in for a close to perfect fit and then repeated the spray foam on the front corners. Got a real tight fit, and I think a reasonable job. Added a vapor barrier to be sure.Then a while later had a top professional team in.And did the math - and discovered that by the time I had paid for all those bits and pieces, my costs were higher psf for a lower R value than I would have got from the pro - and the pro's work would have saved me time and done a far better job in sealing, plus high density closed cell foam instead of a mix. And that's before I paid myself a nickle for ny time.I do everything myself - but this is one area I'm really glad to use a professional installer of a much higher quality product.Gavin Pitchford
"Sail fast - live slow" (build even slower)
And did the math - and discovered that by the time I had paid for all those bits and pieces, my costs were higher psf for a lower R value than I would have got from the pro - and the pro's work would have saved me time and done a far better job in sealing, plus high density closed cell foam instead of a mix. And that's before I paid myself a nickle for ny time.
That's exactly the point - and why you should use a pro/professional system. We used:
http://www.ncfi.com/
http://www.insulstar.com/uploads/Builder%20Brochure%20reprint%20copy%20May%202007.pdf
Thanks a lot for your response. I keep a notebook of information like this for when I get involved in my projects I can always review these little nuggets of information to stay the course so to speak. When I've finished my basement, I plan to remove the sheetrock on the north facing walls on my first floor and doing the same insulation "modification" project but obviously that will have to wait til warmer weather. Minnesota is literally hours away from winter as we speak! Thanks again.
What Piffin said....actually I have to say that may be the best answer I've ever seen on BT.
BUT, a couple of other thoughts: Considering an insulated box that is your home, the floor insulation is a distant third in importance, walls being second and roof/ceiling being most important. Another way to say this is you might be wasting your money putting foam in floor. You mentioned removing sheetrock to do this - is the basement finished/conditioned space, or will it be? Closed cell foam would be more of a concern in that case because it is acting as a vapor retarder and you generally want to avoid an interior vapor retarder (depending on your climate). It may be more cost effective to add that foam to the perimeter rim joist and install wall insulation.
I was surprised - I figured DIY would be less expensive - and for the small section I did do myself, it was: they had a minimum square footage and I was well under a quarter of that, so for that 15 foot lineal - 150 sf section of wall which I needed done "NOW" it was less than having them do their minimum which was basically $4 CDN PCF x 750 SF @ 4" - $1000.
Gavin Pitchford
"Sail fast - live slow" (build even slower)
The pro guns discharge at around 2000 psi IIRC - and establish a very strong bond with building materials.
Jeff
It is the adhesive properties of the material that establish a bond, not the pressure at the tip.
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There are about 4-5 or more diff kinds of foam in the little cans.
The Tigerfoam is the right stuff, but it compares similar to pro applied plus you have to add the labor.
But on a small job, sometimes you can't get a pro in, it it is cost prohibitive. Also, some regions of the country still do not have pros servicing them.
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Tigerfoam also has a slow rise formula that y7ou can put into existing walls rather than needing to strip it all down. Of course if you already have to open it up to do wiring, etc, then carry on.
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Thanks for the additional info. My problem was that when I moved into this small house, it had been re-worked by one of those "handyman" types, who have given a really bad name to the trade. Instead of sheetrock, he installed that #### that consists of ground-up wood chips held together by glue on most of my basement walls. I was very afraid of the fire hazzard. When I started ripping it out, I found lots of other goodies, like lots of mold around the lower wall area where moisture had seeped. Instead of re-landscaping to adjust the slope of the terrain away from the foundation, he simply hauled in a load of walnut-sized rock and filled in around the foundation. The water problem continued. I almost burned my house down one day because he did some very poor electrical wiring projects. I could go on and on but what all this boils down to is exactly as was described in FWW a few years ago. These so-called "contractors" and "handymen" have given such a bad name to the trades that there have been many TV programs interviewing homeowners who have experienced MUCH worse than I have. Now that the economy is not good, a multitude of these morons go out, buy a trailer, paste a name on the side, and continue to do the really stupid "improvements" that really cause problems for the unsuspecting homeowner. This too has happened in the automobile repair business. In this country, we want it done as cheaply as possible, ignoring the quality issues. I called several spray "contractors" and believe it or not, they no only did not know what closed-cell foam was, they didn't know ANY of the safety issues with spraying it, whether or not it was water resistant, etc. I began to wonder if I had dialed the wrong number and called some home for the mentally challenged! Sorry to rant and rave, but when a homeowner needs advice, before contractinmg with anyone to do anything, the first thing they should ask this "handyman" for is "a list of people you have worked for" and follow up with those people. I have asked for assistance several times on this website as well as the FWW site and I can tell you, in ALL cases, the responses were right on and it didn't take long to determine that the people on these sites do IN FACT speak from knowledge and experience. I have often told other people to do what I've done - join KNOTS and BREAKTIME if they want good advice. This ends my rant and rave but I'll bet there are MANY people who have experienced much worse than I have.
I know.. I'm right nearby in Wayzata.
stop in if you want to see a double timberframe. (there are ome pictures here at 39444.1,85891.1, &94941.1)
I should also clue you onto the best deal in the world on hardwood.. Not far from you! Prices cheaper than sheetrock!
Frenchy: Sorry for the delay in responding. Where can I get the best deals on hardwoods? Regarding my foam spray project, I'll do the spraying and/or whatever else it takes and hire out the sheetrock installation.
I found good wood at inexpensive prices by contacting pallet manufactures and asking where they get their wood from..
Too many sawmills are willing to charge near retail prices for their walk in customers.. Things change rather dramatically if you figure out about how much wood you'll need (and sizes etc.*) then walk in with a total. Under say 1000 bd.ft forget it. you will pay near retail. So here is a case of more is better.. Once you establish that sort of relationship you generally keep those prices.
Also let them know that you might be interested in bargins if they have any.. Bargins are wood that was ordered and not picked up.. Maybe it's gone a little grey or black but the first pass through the planner clears that right up and there are some fantastic bargins in that sort of deal..
Also be on the lookout for oppertunities.. That's where I found the deal on the thins..
* sizes mean a little because if the sawyer can reduce his cutting because you are using larger timbers his labor and other costs decrease slightly..
I did a rough calculation added 20% and went in with those numbers..
It's probably worth the money to get a copy of Hardwood market report. http://www.hmr.com phone # 901-767-9126 to see exactly where prices are so that you can tell if you are getting a good deal or not.
Couple of other points. Learn to grade hardwoods.. You don't need to be an expert and there are plenty of places that will teach you the basics. But you should know the differance between FAS, #1F, #1C, #2B,#3A. You'll need to watch to ensure they don't seperate out the wood if they sell you mill run..
I like buying mill run because a better value. They don't have to pay to grade the wood, it's right as it comes off the trunk (called the Bole) Most all cants are Mill run.
I prefer to air dry my own wood. Kiln dried white oak for example is $1820 per 1000 bd.ft. whereas green fresh from the sawmill it's only $940. per 1000bd.ft. You can air dry white oak ina year and no matter how careless I was I never lost a single board. White oak is just one of thoe woods that forgives all sins..
Hard maple on the other hand I could lose 10% by looking at it cross eyed unless I was really really careful.
air drying isn't hard work. You will need stickers but chances are you probably have a cheap source nearby. (ask and I'll explain further) You will also need some cheap tiedown straps but they last for decades so the overall cost is minimal.. (check harbor frieghts prices)
Having done both sheetrocking and foam I would 100 times rather pay someone else to do the foaming and do the sheetrock myself.. With DIY foaming you have to learn as you go and it's not so easy. Sheetrock on the other hand.. simply watch a pro do it for a couple of hours and you'll see how easy it is.. A lift makes all the differance, and don't attempt it by yourself the first go around. Have a helper. (look for someone reasonably strong and patient).
Mudding is very easy once you figure out that you can't just glob it on and sand it off.
It's all about being neat. If you are neat and careful (and don't try to do too much too fast) it's a simple pleasure. absolute minimal sanding.. (but you gotta use the right tools as well)
Piffin: The sheets of the blue or pink foam insulation, are they a closed cell foam material? Is Tigerfoam the source? Actually your idea of the sheets is great and probably less expensive than the pressure vessel style. I often wonder why there isn't some sort of building code that requires the manufacturers of these materials - closed cell foam sheets, for example - to mark the sheets or containers with the "layman's terms" instead of the chemical terms. I'm in Apple Valley, MN by the way - very cold in winter so any further advice you may have on insulation or related would be appreciated. Yes, that rolled stuff I was referring to was fiberglass. This house was built in 1975 by Orin Thompson so I guess most of what he built all share these same problems. This is my basement I'm trying to rehabilitate because I do woodworking and my equipment requires extra care to prevent the rusting. I have a good grip on the dust problem but now trying to reduce the moisture problems. Dehumidifier works a little but I thing the closed cell foam will go a lot further to at least do a better job in controlling the temperature. Thanks for your assistance.
Yes those are closed ell.Available at most lumberyards and building centers. One is made by DOW and the other I think is JMTigrefoam is a source for the spray kits if you elect to go that way
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I understand your frustration with incompetent professionals but
sprayfoam is not something I would want to learn as I go on my own house.
Take the time to find someone who is qualified and hire them.
"Considering an insulated box that is your home, the floor insulation is a distant third in importance, walls being second and roof/ceiling being most important. Another way to say this is you might be wasting your money putting foam in floor."
Why do you say this?
While it is true that, if the OP's basement is mostly below grade, the heat loss will not be as significant as the other areas of the structure exposed to the air. However, I don't think we know enough about the OP's situation to say that basement insulation is less beneficial.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Exactly. I asked the OP if the basement is conditioned, semi-conditioned or not conditioned in that post. Still not sure what the exact situation is, so that's why I say it 'may' be a waste of money. The OP mentioned removing sheetrock in his first post, so that's why I'm curious if the space is conditioned or not.Was at a clients house recently where spray foam was installed in the attic where an air handler was added a couple of years ago. I suggested he have the crew spray foam the rim joist and sill in the basement while there were there (didn't take long, but wasn't free either). The basement is unheated with no insulation in the floor joist above, but the difference with the spray foam installed is striking.
I am at the tail end of overhauling all the basement insulation in my house. I have gone with the closed-cell sheets, IE _extruded_ polystyrene. Extruded is the closed cell, maintains its R value even when presented with moisture, and is suitable for interior or exterior and no vapor barrier should be added anywhere. Locally Lowes sells this, known by the name Styrofoam and it's blue by DOW corporation. Home Depot carries Owens Corning brand and it's pink called Foamuluar 250 (25 PSI, 150 exists for 15 PSI as do higher PSI but isn't carried by HD normally). Prices for me are exactly the same except that the 2" Owens Corning sheets are $14.50 instead of $17.50 for DOW, so that's what I'm using.
The walls have been fine, but heck, those joist bays are a pain. I have redone them all and it's a ton of labor to get them right. I've cut them all deliberately small, filled the spaces with Great Stuff foam (it's closed cell, made by DOW corp--cheapest, BTW, at Home Depot in 16 ounce cans vs the 12 ounce sold at Lowes). I glue with PL300 the chunks in place in the bays then wait a day or more and then spray in the space. The bay aren't the same width and even when they are some of them have wires or vents near them and there is also the space between the sill plate at the top of the concrete block wall. My blocks were hollow and convective currents had air constantly moving up these, so I've had to seal from the base of the wall up to its top with the sheets, then the joist bays, then also this space between the sill plate and top of the wall.
I am nearly done but if I had to do it again I'd probably sheet my wall then strongly consider paying for the DIY kits to spray those joist bays and do it in one fell swoop. I have not used that foam, though. It may be a hassle to work with.
I would not hire a pro to spray joist bays unless he could do it for only a few hundred bucks. If you got everything ready and had him spray the bays and your finished walls after studding them, that may be worth it but I suspect quite expensive.
Know also that right now there is a 30% tax credit available for materials only if they insulate your house to a proper degree. Thus my $14.50 sheets are more like $10.50. If you hired a pro you'd only be able to get that credit on the cost of his foam.
Not much fun is it? :) I've been there, and feel your pain. I agree the walls aren't that bad, but the bays take way to long. I believe you are mistaken about the Tax credit pertaining only to
the materials. I just paid for dense pack insulation in my house and
that wasn't how it was explained to me. But hey We'll all find out April 15 right! If there is a sizable square footage to cover hire a pro.
Re-doing the basement? Sounds like deja-vu all over again ....
As others here know, I've just finished cleaning up after a finished basement flooded. Here are some thoughts to consider:
First, the floor is NOT flat. Get that fixes first. At the very minimum, drill 1/4" holes in the low points of the slab, so water has some place to go.
Because the next point is that water WILL enter the basement. To prevent this from becoming a problem, you need to consider that in your construction methods, and provide for plenty of ventilation - fresh air in as well as stale air out.
You mention the walls. Fiberglass is simply wrong for this application. What I did was to replace the water-trapping studs with "W" (or 'hat') channels from the drywall supply house. These steel pieces are about 3" wide, attach to the walls, and hold the insulation about 1/2" off the wall. The flanges are also where you attach the drywall and/or panelling.
When you hang the walls, start at the TOP. The ceiling. Unlike the floor, the joists are pretty flat. More impoprtantly, you cut the bottom pieces to stop above the floor.
Instead of the usual molding. I used 1x6 plastic trim stock. Using a knife and a multi-master, I then cut the drywall (and panelling) and set this 'trim' under the bottom edge. It's held in place with screws (and spacers) to those hat channels. If you want, you can use a WEAK caulk to fill any gaps; I didn't find that necessary. (The MM gives you great control!) Do NOT caulk the bottom edge of this trim.
Note that everything - even the insulation - stops short of the floor. The insulation I trimmed at about an inch above the floor; the trim rests against it.
The whole point of this design is to let water seeping through the walls drop down, before it comes in contact with the insulation. When the water reaches the floor, it can drain under the trim. Being plastic, the trim will not absorb water. Water would have to be more than 5" deep to reach the panelling and wallboard.
Carpeting, if used, ought to be a patchwork of area rugs and free standing padding. Keep the pieces small enough - maybe 5'x8' - so that you can readilly roll them up and remove them wey when the flood happens.
Try to have the receptacles come off as many different circuits as possible, and all should be GFCI protected. Set them a little high, perhaps 18-24" above the floor. If you flood, you'll need all that power for the fans and dehumidifiers.
My next project in this basement will be to install a vent at one end, and a humidity-controlled fan at the other. Better get a quiet 'squirrel cage' fan; it's going to run a fair amount.
There was some wood in contact with the floor that I could not replace. Outside door frame and stair case, for example. Once I had those dried out ,,, they had takeb a 1/2" of standing water and wicked it up a foot or so ... I did what I could to soak the end grain in shellac. That ought to prevent the problem from returning.
I would not be too hard on the DIY. The fact is, nearly every basement is remodeled by aping construction techniques from the main part of the house. It's just that these simple stud walls are not (IMO) suitable for basements. Even metal track will trap a surprising amount of water; if you're building an interior wall, find a way to raise this track up off the floor, and punch a drain hole in each stud bay.
I kind of had to laugh a little at your epistle because of the four homes (this is the fifth) I've had, ALL had leaking basements, ALL were "finished" with carpet and all the related junk (old furniture, a stupid looking bar, shag carpeting, mold in hidden spots, etc.), and I ended up gutting them ALL down to the bare walls and then simply painting the walls either grey or white, sometimes a mix! Your epistle is an excellent summary of exactly HOW to do the project. I am in the process now of completely gutting this basement and with all the responses I've had to my original question about closed cell foam insulation, I figure I can do this project the way it needs to be done. I'll simply acid etch the floor and maybe put down a coat of that stuff commercial garages put down and let it go at that. I've never been in a basement that didn't smell musty, in spite of dehumidifiers and such. Maybe mine will be the first one that won't have the moisture problem. Thanks for your excellent response - I have printed it and inserted it into my project file.
Thank you for your kind words. When you said 'epistile,' I at first feared that I had been too ...uh, enthusiastic ... in my post.
My recent basement flood ... only about 1/2" of water on the follr ... cost me $11K to repair. This basement is not musty at all, and I intend to keep it that way!
Some might quibble that my way is far to expensive ... but the first flood will more than cancel any savings you might have by 'being conventional.'