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I’ve been framing for my current boss for two years now. I run his second crew for him. He’s a great guy, but way too set in his ways. He has no use for publications such as this (Fine Homebuilding), books, or advice from anyone!! I tend to pay far more attention to details, plans and things which are easier to fix or at least finish before moving on to the next phase than he. The result is that my houses take 3 or 4 days longer to build than his. However, I NEVER end up with a “punchout” list that can’t be taken care of in less than an hour or so, wheres I continuously get sent back to his houses for two or three DAYS of pain in the neck fixes and serious sawzall time. Time wise, the end result is the same. He’s a good guy and pays me well, but nobody likes fixing framing errors late in the game…especially not someone else’s. Let alone how the builder feels about it. Anyone ever deal with a stubborn old goat like this?
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I'm like you.
I like to get things right the first time. Very seldom Do I need the sawzall when framing.
I have a guy that leads for me that is more like your boss. He is really good at fixing mistakes. In fact he plans for it. Drives me nuts.
Some get good with the sawzall by fixing their own mistakes, some get good by fixing the mistakes of others.
As long as your boss is happy I wouldn't complain.
If he's complaining about how long it takes you to fix his mistakes, that's a different story.
I too am amazed at the number of contractors who don't read the trade magazines.
Best of luck.
*Obviously frustrating. Especially when you are required to fix someone elses mistakes.But, since he IS the boss you can't force the issue, just make recommendations.One of my recommendations would be, since you are or appear to be a production framer, is to concentrate on improving your own crew speed and maintain the accuracy and quality of your work at the same time.You are off to a good start because you are willing to learn and profit from the experience of others and will study the various techniques available through the trade publications and your on-line buddies.I think nothing else but an actual demonstration of the combination of speed and skill (and no callbacks or outrageous punchouts) will convince your boss that there is another point of view. Closing out a near perfect job in the same time frame that it takes others to do a half-assed job should earn you a multitude of bankable chits.Smile when you work and keep on reaching for your goals.
*Thanks for the wise input guys...I was beginning to think that maybe I'm too picky. Anytime I try to make suggestions, his reply is..."hey, it ain't a piano" I guess to "lead by example" is the best possible solution here. Thanks
*My oh my d-pig,He's the goat 'n you da oinkah! Gotta love it.How set in his ways?...like concrete!Many people have those attributes. Its worked so farso why change could be their thinking. Been told that myself..luckily he's a good guy.Gotta anticipate..that means spotting patterns. Look for the crux or fault line and isolate it. Then figure out a way to show him in such a way as to have him think he discovered it. Know the solutionand be cool about it...are you a good politician?Regards, Dan-O
*I've known a dozen guys just like him. They will never change. One of them even told me he doesn't have time to mess around with the details when he's building.....but he always has time to fix the screwups he created. ( Or as in your case, has someone else fix them for him ) If you build your own homes from the ground up, you will soon learn that you can't pay too much attention to detail right from the beginning. Nothing looks worse to a customer than to see you hacking up a project that is almost finished because you screwed something up by rushing into it in the first place. I always try to do my "homework" at night , so I don't have to wonder what I should be doing the next day when you've got a crew waiting on you.
*A sawzall is bad luck on a new frame. If used, it shows poor planning. That means wasted time, lost money,and something productive not getting done.
*d-pig,
View Image"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Option A: Keep working for this guy. Everyone will associate you with his poor workmanship. Option B: Quit and start your own company. Build a good frame. Your clients will be happy, and (most importantly) YOU'LL be happy based on a job well done. Remember, bad reputations last a lifetime. There's already enough butchers out there, home-buyers don't need another one.
*Now stop bashing his boss. I'm just like his boss. I'm a big picture person, I'm a concept person, I can't be slowed down by the details. But that's okay because I hire guys like dieselpig that are good at details and all is well.The guys that work for me are always finishing up the details I miss and cleaning up my sloppy work. My guys keep me looking good. And that system is good for everybody. In the end, the product is good. Some days they get frustrated with me because my head is three weeks ahead of where we really are and I don't want them to bother me with the things that are going on today. Sometimes they frustrate me because they don't see the big picture, they're worried about what I often feel is the petty stuff when I want them to be pondering next month's projects.But with my stearing everybody toward tomorrow and everybody else geting today right, we do well. We're a good team.
*Sawzalls are for kids...men get out the chainsaw. Cuts faster and makes more chips.
*I'm with Ryan on this one, Sometimes when you are concerned with the small details you kinda miss the big picture. For example,What if your next job is dependant on you "finishing" this one quickly? I know a lot of developers who assign jobs to crews who get the work done quickly. Maybe they're selling a "price" product and the way they make money is by finishing up a project quickly and get it occupied. As far as the developer is concerned you're finished when the last sheet of plywood goes on the roof. If a few items need attention after inspection that's not a problem as long as it's handled. It's a price/jobs/profit kinda equation. If I get these 11 jobs done by August, then I'll be free to do that Creekside development. There are a whole lotta high end houses there and they mean big money but I gotta be done here no later than July 25th in order to keep Jones framing from getting it. Let's see what corners can I cut,..... I know that i can send dieselpig to finish up and still get to start on the Creekside Project.
*As a trimmer, fixing framing screw ups is gravy on my mashed potatoes. I love gettin' the sawzall out...Extra, extra, read all about it!Actually, fixing mistakes, my own included, has helped make me a much better all around carpenter...at least, that's what I tell people...
*Dieselpig, you're a pussy.If you had any balls, you'd take Joe's advice and tell bossman to fix his own f**kups. That's what I did when I was a young up'an comer! Today, I'd just laugh if someone actually thought they could get me to fix their stuff, while they worked on something new. Seriouslly, it just ain't gonna happen. Learn to stick up for your rights.Be careful though, because you might not be getting the jobs done as fast as you think. I've heard the piano line and understand that mentality completely. There are a lot of framers that don't understand that they are framing, and want to build piano instead. A good framer has to balance quality and quantity. There is a fine line to walk.Anyways, there's probably a grain of wisdom in everyone's advice so far. My mentor was a guy who raced for the ply and left me a ton of "punchout". I was a young apprentice and learned a lot doing the multitude of odd's and ends that the crew left. Sometimes I'd be stuck for a week or more attending to the details. I learned to hate that. I also later figured out that he was racing for a draw, to pay me. It might not make fiancial sense, on every level, but sometimes you gotta do, what you gotta do.Occasionally, I'll leave a little more loose ends behind, if I have a crane scheduled and misjudge my prep time. I don't even intentioanlly ignore something that is wrong however. I now try to get everything done as I go. In that sense, I'm kinda like you. I don't have much need for a sawzall, for my own work, but my guys would commit suicide without one. I make them fix all their own mistakes, if I can determine who did it.I did manage to send in a bill today for $468 for sawzall work. That represented five window header changes that the builder forgot to tell us about. Good topic.blue
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View Image"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*I thought this whole thread was originally about "fixing mistakes". Order of operations is irrelevant, as long as it all gets done. Making enough mistakes that DieselPig has to spend a week with a sawzall fixing them is an out and out joke. His boss should bring his brain to work next time. As a GC, would any of you want this type of frame-work? Or better yet, as a Homeowner?
*A week of mistakes is a friggin joke.near the stream fixin a weeks worth as they happen!Oh well...aj
*Must be an acceptable practice in his neck of the woods, where ever that is, if he's been pickin' his bosses chestnuts out of the fire for two years. And, if nobody else is complaining (GC's or homeowners), then all's well that ends well. Drywall and trim will hide it all. Three cheers for the inventor of the sawzall. Takes the uncertainty out of fine homebuilding.
*Blue eyed devil....where to begin? Did you even read my message or just the ones following it? First off, if you ever met me you wouldn't even entertain calling me a pussy. That out of the way, it's very easy to be in your position and tell me that I should tell my boss to screw. You probably don't have a new baby. You probably don't have a dog that needs $1200 worth of orthopedic surgery. You probably don't have a new F-350 deisel with payments that just keep coming. Fixing minor mistakes aren't the issue...that's part of my job. However swapping out 2x8 headers for LVL's in walls carrying a serious roof load (yes, it somehow elluded the inspector)AFTER drywall, hardwood, cedar and paint are not minor f&%k ups. Ripping out stair stringers with 1/2" differences in rise are not minor. And the list goes on. And Ralph, "my neck of the woods" is a place where one framer doesn't let another off the hook to easily for throwing the word "pussy" around...hey Blue maybe we can get together on a job sometime...
*Hey calm down there dieselpig. You don't have to get all worked up, just cause someone called you a pussy. If your going to whine too much about being called one though, I might start thinking you are one.Diesel, old goats like me, love guys like you, with your new kids and new cars and scared to rock the boat. I could have you sawzalling upside down on the top of my 32' ladder. I'd spend my days f**king up everything and then send you over there to fix it. I'd do that as long as you let me.I'm just pointing out, that either you gotta take a stand, or just grin and bear it. I've done my share of hacking out other's mistakes, but have gained enough wisdom, and financial security, to choose now. Of course, even when I was you're age, with the kids and mortgage, I still ran my mouth more than I ran my sawzall.Seriously, every carpenter has his style. Yours might be different than the goats. Like Ralph pointed out, something must be working out, because you've had a solid few years of fixing the old goats stuff. You better hope he keeps messing up so you'll always have job security.By the way, the header replacement only sounds like a couple of hours. Ditto the stairs. What else you doing for those three days? Long coffee breaks?blue
*Point taken...and as you can probably tell, my mouth runs just fine. Help me out if you can...I just posted another problem of mine. pig
*Anyways dieselpig, welcome aboard. I recently heard a little experiment thing about planning. One test group (A) was given an hour to complete as much as they could, without any planning. Group "B" was told to plan brielfy and then get as much done in that same hour. Group "C" was told to plan for exactly ten minutes, then get as much done. Guess which group had the most production. Yep! Group C!YOu sound like a group "C" kinda guy. I'm that way too. I like to compare myself to the tortoise and the hare. I am a tortoise. It doesn't seem like I'm getting anything done, but in the end, I'm usually quite competitive. By the way, where'd ya post the other problem? And where are you framing (which state)?blue
*I should have posted it in "techniques" but it's her e instead. Building primarily in Massachusetts. By the way I'm starting to feel guilty for bad mouthin' the goat...he took a 30ft spill the other day. Gonna be ok though... ruptured spleen, broken collar bone, and seven broken ribs! Tough old goat
*Geez!!!! 30'????I've seen some of those tough as nails guys. I'm just a patsy. Hell, I don't even have callous's on my hands anymore...How'd he fall?bluePs I;ll check in the techniques folder after I get through all my "check Messages".
*Maybe this will help you understand him a little better. Sometime between the plans being drawn and the start of the frame, the lumber saleman talked the builder into changing the first floor walls from 88" studs to 104 5/8". Nobody thought to account for it in regards to the size and position of the stair hole. When I brought it to his attention it was already framed but not yet decked. He was somewhat aggravated and climbed out there, stood on the double joist and whacked the perpendicular header double with a sledge. This broke free but was hung on the double he was standing on, which dumped him down the hole. About 10 min before this he had removed the plywood temporarily covering the first floor stair hole to take measurements for the stairs that couldn't be cut. He dropped all the way to the footings. The basement has 15ft cielings due to knee walls and the grade of the lot. This was, by far, the most discouraging and plain old sh%$ty thing I have yet to see on a jobsite. As much as I complain about him, it broke my heart to see him fall.
*Diesel, I understand him perfectly. I've worked with a ton of these muscle heads. I've encountered way too many stair problems in my day with the advent of the 9' ceilings. A more perplexing problem is the 7" max rise and 10" runs. None of the house plans can easily accomodate that!Old goat man might learn how to disassemble carefully now.....NAWWWWWWWWWWWW!blue
*Terrible thing to happen and be part of...May be time to adjust how all is done...now that he may be layed up for months and may never be up on a frame again.nets...nets can be measured through...I have deer fencing..near the stream,ajnever had 2 stair holes open straight through ever...Love to fly..but not straight down.
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I've been framing for my current boss for two years now. I run his second crew for him. He's a great guy, but way too set in his ways. He has no use for publications such as this (Fine Homebuilding), books, or advice from anyone!! I tend to pay far more attention to details, plans and things which are easier to fix or at least finish before moving on to the next phase than he. The result is that my houses take 3 or 4 days longer to build than his. However, I NEVER end up with a "punchout" list that can't be taken care of in less than an hour or so, wheres I continuously get sent back to his houses for two or three DAYS of pain in the neck fixes and serious sawzall time. Time wise, the end result is the same. He's a good guy and pays me well, but nobody likes fixing framing errors late in the game...especially not someone else's. Let alone how the builder feels about it. Anyone ever deal with a stubborn old goat like this?