i’ve decided to add a little service window between the kitchen and dining room in our older bungalow (1935, therefore plaster and lathe walls which are bulky and uneven inside).
i would like to be able to close the opening for privacy/noise, but realize too late, now that i’ve got the dang hole in the wall, that i don’t know how to go about doing it. due to space constraints, i’d really like to have something that slides up and down within the wall rather than opening out like a hinged panel. a contained pocket door that slides horizontally won’t work due to the studs… it’s a tight space and there’s some interesting wiring going on beyond the 14″ wide opening i have now (the spacing of the studs in this spot is 14″).
can y’all help me with techniques or a product that would slide up and down, within the wall, and create a noise barrier (not just flimsy visual, like blinds or a curtain).
Thanks!!
Replies
How about a appliance garage door or roll top door available in many matching finishes. should be just what the doctor ordered
thanks clay. that's a principle that would work, but the opening is only 14" x 24" so i need something on a small scale. where would i look for a product like roll-top kits?
i was also thinking of maybe a panel on a pulley with a weight on a chain that would run through a small hole adjacent to the window... i get these general ideas and don't know enough to get them done and have to run for help.
doncha just hate people like me?ps- i had meant to post this over in construction techniques. i tried copying it over there, but it wound up back here. any easy way to move this to the other forum? thanks
Edited 2/11/2005 11:58 am ET by MSM
Almost all kitchen cabinet manufactures make that a available option when specking cabinets, and I might rethink the finish on both sides???? Hmm it does have the cloth on the backside and I've taken them to custom width on a couple of specials i did with out to much problem. But this is the starting point. Also on line I'm thinking woodworkers.com carries them. Or is it woodworkers supply .com?
Here's a possibility also @rockler.com
Vertical ''Over The Top'' Flipper Door Slide
Enjoy the convenience of overhead flipper doors! * Overlay cabinet doors conveniently lift up and slide back on top of housing unit.http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product_details.cfm?&offerings_id=11112&objectgroup_id=348&catid=19&filter=tambor%20door
Vertical ''Over The Top'' Flipper Door Slide - Pocket Door, Flipper and Sliding Door Systems
Flipper doors won't work. You are limited in the depth to 3.5"
Ok beat me up, make me think harder, I was just kicking ideas to brainstorm.
I do like to try and not make some projects harder then they need to be
http://www.woodfold.com/imgs_series/rollup3.jpg
I'm kinda thinking getting the sides skinned then putting in a nice clean rollup or something like that, I've also got a vinal accordion vertical in my mind I've seen somewhere-Hey just ideas.
re. the other forum, i had tried to copy my first post to that one, then delete it from general discussion so there wouldn't be 2...but it reverted back to this one anyway.
but that was before i got so many thoughtful answers here; no need to move it now. thanks all! brainstorming is fine- seems i'm always having to semi-invent solutions, so all input is good. keep 'em coming.wow bill-- 3 times the height? that won't do. and thanks for the mention of a handle to keep the door from disappearing up into the wall-- for sure, that would have been my first oversight!i'll print out your suggestions and research around the web. thanks again!
Here's what I was tring to get you the first time but it took me getting the catolog out and inputing the code # in before thier search engine could find the page. Take a look at some of the stuff. If you put one on each side and fasten the bottom with a crossblock of the same wood it would operate as one.Also would be finished on both sides.
Also I just previewed it and it didn't post the picture so go to that site and put the 824-011 code to get to that page. It did post all the details that I wanted you to see about whats available.
Opps worked good after all just click on the image.
We used those back in my cabinet-shop days--for this application, "we" may run out of wall depth as the front-to-back depth on the guides is a bit over 2 1/2" (the things you learn shipping just the faceframe of an appliance garage . . . )
Not saying it can't be done, just that we may need a deep sill with matching jambs to get it in the wall, is all.
The flipper door guides idea struck me wacky (made me wacky, not the idea). If there's a cabinet on the other side of the pass-through, would a drop-down, i.e., hinged from the cabinet above, door/panel be a solution?Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
How bout we use doors and not the frame on one side it fits to top of the hole? say 24" on the other side it sits at say 27"= offset so the rollers don't take up all the width.You wouldn't see the difference in hight. I was trying to scan a fabricated one I made for a match to the kitchen cabinets but in the bathroom. And the HP software wants me to reinvent the wheel and our little scan of old hard photo doesn't get sent. But the idea is to use the tracks provided with the frame, cut the door to any width you want and remount the roller and spring/head rail.I'm gonna send this first and try my scan again, cause its really apizzer when all my hard performed typing gets 86.
Hp G-85 software sucks so carly thats wy you got the X
I think if you did want to present the question in the other area you need to go to post new then fill in the subject and the constriction techniques, then copy your text of question and paste, and post.But you should get good response from general discussion.
No need to move it.This is just as good a place.And if you repost it then you get 2 different threads going which gets confusing.I agree with that a basic "window" design is the best.If you use counter weights then you need to get the pulleys up in the wall 3 times the height of the window plus the lenght of the weight.But something of this size friction will probably work as well.
The trickiest part is that the answer is visible on both sides.
That lets out a tambour (roll-up) as the backs are not really finished, to my thinking.
The best installations for vertical sliders have been modified single sash window units (if only for already having the counterweights, etc.)
You could likely do something similar with the spring sash balances, to make the panel easily controlable. For access, I'd look to the kitchen side. I'm going to guess that there's an upper cabinet over your pass through. With a little care (and a touch of persuasion) you could temporarily take down the upper to get access to the "bay" you'll need for your panel.
Then, you just need some frame stock and the "sash" (I'm thinking a traditional window sash with a solid panel instead of glazing--a cabinet door to match the dining room would work as well).
Oh, and if you use a nice metal handle on the bottom of the panel to keep it from vanishing up into the wall, get a couple of matching (brass if brass; chrome if chrome, IOW) flat plates for the handle(s) to hit.
MSM
We did a house that had a remote control lift between the butlers pantry and the kitchen. We used Hafele mechanism, which means its pricey.
You could do the window thing like some suggested or do a smaller version of pocket doors. Either one or two doors.
Doug
How about a "Inca Lift" or a "Auton Lift" Check out their web sites
They make them for narrow panels. They come fully remote or switch activated.
The biggest panel I have done was 9-10' long 42" high and approx 12" thick. Sorta/kinda a display case dividing a game room from the home theater. This one a cutom lift made by a local metal fabricator
You can do tambours without any canvas at all. Both sides are then "show" sides.
You need a few basic shop tools like jointer, maybe a planer, table saw, router & table or shaper and a drill press is real handy for this. Make up the blank pieces, then drill 'em, then shape 'em with a cove bit and a bullnose bit. Now weave some 1/8" aircraft cable thru them all to hold the assembly together. Then make a cap piece to cover the exposed cable on what will become your bottom tambour.
However, I think you're gonna have a hard time getting tambours to operate inside a 3 1/2" wall space. That's a mighty tight radius.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 2/11/2005 9:47 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
Edited 2/11/2005 9:51 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
It strikes me that this may be getting way too complicated.
Is this pass-thru to be all the width you can maintain from just one 16"OC stud bay or are we talkin' two bays? If it's just one bay, couldn't a guy make a simple frame and ¼" panel door which is held in place by a ½" jamb for each side with a narrow track in it (say ¼"). Couple ¼" pins protrude from the edge of the frame to engage the dadoed track. At the appropriate height you also rout a little turn-out from the main track and the pins kick out into that "side track" to hold the door up. ??
Unless this door is gonna be considerably larger, it shouldn't weigh all that much. If you want heavier ply, then yes, it's gonna get a bit heavier.
(meant to address this reply to "ALL")
LOL - "we". if i manage to do this thing, it was definitely with all your help!i agree, the space within the wall is awfully tight to try to roll up a door. the old plaster oozed between the lathe thickly and there's no telling how narrow a spot might get further up inside the wall above my opening.
opening is between one set of studs only; a few inches from outside wall on the right, and on the left i just barely missed some original wiring (1930's) that snakes around-- getting involved in rewiring in order to enlarge the service window is totally out of the question. not worth it. i'd sooner close up the opening and forget the whole thing than turn this molehill into a mountain.i have to admit i'm havng trouble visualizing some of these ideas- sunday i should have the time to sit down and look at them with a sketchpad. (did i mention i'm a nearly 50-yr-old mom of a 3-yr old late life surprise baby, and trying to take care of aging parents who live out of town.)
i am renovating the house next door to the one we currently live in, trying to get it ready to move into this summer. most likely i will be posing other questions here at breaktime as i work thru the house.
i just know enough about this stuff "to be dangerous", as they say-- just have a WWII generation dad (30 yr air force vet) who was a fantastic woodworker/engineer and built home additions for himself the way so many guys then did. i'm an artist, so i can usually visualize things and figure them out, tho i don't know all the right terms or what nifty products are out there.
tools aren't a big problem, i do have access to my dad's workshop about 2 hrs out of town (not quite the same as on site, but better than nothing.)
Sadly, he used to be brilliant and would have been able to help me with this up until a few years ago when he had a stroke. he just turned 90 and is getting senile- sometimes he doesn't remember how to do the simplest things. i thought having him help me figure out some of my projects would be good for him, but he can't think clearly and gets frustrated and angry and i don't take problems to him any more.thanks again- keep brainstorming and i'll check in tomorrow. i hate to admit it, but i may chuck the whole idea of concealed panel and put a pair of narrow hinged doors in after all. i just didn't want them to possibly knock into stuff on the kitchen counter on one side, where the blender used to live, or open out an inch over people's heads on the dining room side, where i'm going to put the booth salvaged from an old diner (again, this is a small house).
i was getting squirrely from working alone and really really appreciate having you guys help! thanks!
Edited 2/12/2005 12:14 pm ET by MSM
Pictures would help.Including laying your camera flat on it's back in the bottom of your "window", and taking a picture looking up into the wall.
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow
After clearing my computer of all hp software and reloading I think I can get you the picture I was simply trying to post. Well it's getting close now if I can only get it to load for you.
I'm still trying I think it's in this one. just take and rotate it 90
Clay: When you put the vertical tambour horizontally on the picture link, were you reading my mind?
Steve
Ha Ha now if I could only get this bucking computer to go where i want it to go .
Hope no ones getting tired of this brain dead computer expert trying to ride. Dua How bout rotating the picture in the scanner.
(Again, meant to address to "ALL")
nice work on the cabinet, clay.
the width of my space is only 14" from raw stud to stud. the point of the window is to be able to pass tableware through easily, including our dinnerpates which are 11" diameter; how much space do you estimate would a horizontal use take?
i have used a mirror with flashlight to look up into the space and it is tight and ragged. not sure the exact with at the worst spot. i could reach in and up to use a prybar and try to carefully knock off some of the "extruded" concrete inside to clear out some room... i have done that in more accesable spots when turning wallspace into narrow set-in shelving, mounting luan up against the inside of the opposite wall.
(if someone can tell me how upload photos at this site, i will post a photo.)
that worked well and i never cracked the plaster on the opposite wall, but i had better access.looking forward to tomorrow to sit down and ponder these suggestions with pencil and paper in hand!Edited 2/12/2005 8:47 pm ET by MSM
-ps- just came back from staring at it for a while... why not drop a rigid door in the space below rather than raising it above? could have a plank (width equaling total depth of wall) mounted to the top of the door panel to keep it from disappearing down into the hole and would act as the shelf when open. not sure how to secure it closed (in other words, up)... thinking magnets maybe (since my 3 yr old is constantly playing with those Brio trains that use magnets to link the cars...). still, to do this, the whole thikng would need to be enclosed in a frame and then inserted, right? in order to seal off the creepy interior space from invasion by roaches, spiders, etc...
Edited 2/13/2005 2:23 am ET by MSM
never was able to sit down and really look over all the advice here and sketch it out, which i need to do at a time of no distraction in order to visualize. but the idea of having a panel sit down in the wall when open, with a shelf/top to keep it disappearing as per. bill's advice, this is the direction i think i'll go in.
any other suggestions/troubleshooting/red flags?
Hold on a minute here.
Everybody's going vertical. You've got more space horizontally, how about a horizontal tambour. Or even simpler, a 3-piece bypass slider. You'd still have most of your height, only would lose some of your width, still be usable.
Easier, and no weight problem.
Steve