Hope someone can help.
After a hot side slab leak early this year in our 52 yr old house in Los Angeles’ West San Fernando Valley (really hot in summer), we had both the hot and cold water entirely rerouted. Pipes for the rest of the house were able to go into trenches along the structure’s perimeter, but there was no direct “trenchable” access to the kitchen; that had to be routed through the garage with which is shares a partial wall.
Copper was used to go through the garage wall from the regulator, then PEX was run along the garage walls to the point behind which are the kitchen faucets.
Now with 90°+ temps outside that can get to well over 100° inside the garage, the kitchen’s COLD water runs hot. It takes 4½ to 5 gallons before the tap runs cold. Salad is getting washed in hot water, can’t cool things off with a cold rinse, and with the clothes washer in garage, cold-water washing isn’t (stuff’s shrunk!).
Contractor insulated everything underground, and hot line in garage w/ highest density 1″ thick foam, but not garage cold. I have a feeling, anyway, that that foam stuff’s better at keeping heat in, than out.
I talked to the plumbing company owner in the Spring, but he had no answer. Asked me to call back if the problem persisted when it got really hot. I think he was stumped.
Does anyone have any suggestion for a solution?
Another insulation material?
Repipe garage cold with something else (like …)?
???
When I call the plumber back, I’d sure like to be “forearmed”.
I’d sure appreciate any advice!
Thanks,
RandL
Replies
Insulation only delays the transmission of heat. If that water sits all day in a 100 degree garage, it will be hot. We have the same problem here with pipes in the attic.
The only fix is I know of getting inside air conditioned space or underground.
118'
RandL,
Dont have and solutions for you but simply an observation.
If you used 1/2'' copper/pex in the garage area to supply the kitchen, you would need to have approximately 118 linear feet of pipe to have 1 gallon of water in the line in those temperatures, so circulating 4-5 gallons would represent 470-590 feet of pipe. How deep did they trench your new lines???
Where is your main in comparison to the lines coming in to the garage?
puzzled by this as well and would love to hear what the probelm was when it is found.
Too Shallow Trenches?
Hmmm...
Water meter is some 35' from regulator, and that's stayed put. Trenching starts at the regualtor, which is about 25' to the water heater in the attached garage. As I watched them do the work, I'd say the trenches were 18" - 24" deep. The lines were done with copper (the heavier one) and covered with (what I was told was) the thickest and densest foam insulation before being covered. As for inside the garage, it's probably 25' - 30' (bends around doors, etc) before going thru the wall into the kitchen
I guess that would mean there's under 50' of rerouted water. Under 1/2 gallon! (?)
What I do know for sure is that, even during the summer, cold water in the kitchen was relatively instant before the reroute project.
Whew!!
I will (if I remember) let you know if I do find a solution.
Thx for the insight
RL
Insulation and convenience
RandL wrote:
Contractor insulated everything underground, and hot line in garage w/ highest density 1" thick foam, but not garage cold. I have a feeling, anyway, that that foam stuff's better at keeping heat in, than out.
RandL,
Forget that feeling. Insulation's not biased. It's just insulation. Greg's right, it only delays the transmission of thermal energy. Even the best foam wrap is only about an R-5 at 1" thick. That's not very much. But even if it's doubled, tripled, or even quadrupled, it will eventually equilabate to the surrounding temps if it sits in it long enough.
Maybe the answer is to introduce some type of chiller as the cold pipe enters the conditioned space. This will obviously use more energy, but running and wasting water costs extra money as well. I guess you have to weigh that against convenience. It's an interesting dilemma. Most folks out this way are concerned about instant hot water, yet you're having to deal with the logistics of getting the opposite.
Absitively, posolutly Sure
Nope - Not possible to be crossed. Hot was done (but not back-filled) before idea to do cold was considered. Also, entire 'cold water runs hot' issue is excluded from all fixtures EXCEPT kitchen.
Something else comes to mind, though,in next post.
Thanks for the idea, though.
RL
Thought of Something - Could This be Possible?
As a separate issue, the sprinlkers in our south-facing, arid So Cal front yard have been off for a very long time due to multi large leaks in 50+ yr old gal pipes, resulting in -- dead landscaping. That's where the reroute trenches were run (no other place available, anyway).
Even before I started this thread, we decided to re-sprinkler and relandscape, and when they finish their current project in a couple weeks, the company we chose will start that project.
Both rerouts started at the house's water regualtor located some 35-40 feet from the garage where the water heater and only possible kitchen routing acces is. So...
Could full summertime heat penetrate the 12" - 15" depth of the trencehes to the pipe and add to the volume not-cold water already in the hot-garage pipes?
Should well irrigated groundcover and maybe well placed trench-shading schrubs create cooler pipes underneath?
Feedback appreciated!
RL
Get yourself a cheap digital meat thermometer, dig a hole about 12" deep, and measure the soil temp. Let that inform you as to what's possible.
probably not the answer to your problem
RandL wrote:
Could full summertime heat penetrate the 12" - 15" depth of the trencehes to the pipe and add to the volume not-cold water already in the hot-garage pipes?
Deadnuts: Not likely. While earth has a reltively low R-value, it has a very high thermal mass that allows it to aborb above ground temperature swings very slowly. IMO, nightime lows will offset daytime highs; particulary at the depths you've indicated.
Should well irrigated groundcover and maybe well placed trench-shading schrubs create cooler pipes underneath?
Deadnuts: Can't hurt. But again, it probably won't have a large thermal effect on water temp in pipes buried 12-15" due to high thermal mass of earth. If you really want to track the temperature swings at the depths your talking about, then a meat thermometer is not the way to go. What you need is a remote sensor like the ones Lignomat uses to track R.H. and temperatures in wall cavities and deep within building materials like concrete. The set up is not cheap. It's in the $300-400 range. If you really want to go that route, then I can provide model #'s. I have one and can attest that it works very well. However, for your situation, I don't think it's going to gain you much in terms of developing a solution to your problem.
Feedback appreciated!
RL