In these pictures the wood that was used was Poplar, and in a little under 2-3 weeks it is already starting to lift and curl. The homeowner was suppose to prime & paint these, but because of the weather conditions (Boston) he hasn’t been able to.
A couple of questions:
1: If I go ahead and remove them, clamp, glue and nail them together will it stop the wood from curling further? This step was never done on the actual install, and I feel like it would have prevented this curling action.
2: I was referred to poplar because it was a good exterior wood and accepted paint very well. Now I am hearing it is not a very good exterior wood. Is it? What would be better for exterior use and painting specifically for columns and structure/load?
3: I think I am going to replace the ones that look the worst out of all of them and save what I can. Will using two different species of wood paint differently after I make the repairs to the ones that need to be replaced?
4: Would a quick prime & paint coat on the first day of install actually stopped this from happening or would it have happened regardless?
Replies
That wood was green, KD pop is uncommon in that thickness, and being winter and low humidity, it checked all to hell.
(1) bad choice, pop is NOT gonna fly there
(2) I PRIME every surface before install
(3) You'll be best off to start anew with
(a) a composite ( built up if needed
(b) a synthetic
(c) A specie such as Ipe, that has been dried properly
Sad, but true
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Sphere,
Thanks for the info. We stayed away from composite because the handrails and columns were gonna be painted, so we wanted to match the look.
Good eye on the wood, it was 8/4 poplar. Had to make up some height difference, it obviously wasn't a home depot item. I had to purchase it at a specialty trim outlet.
How does ipe paint and hold up to weather?
Ipe paints just fine, but really, Trex is BETTER for paint.
I'd be all over that in a heartbeat and cut any losses now. Don't mess with the old at all.
BTW, AZEK is stark white and if thats the color scheme, you could leave it as is. Just laminate layers with the proper PVC glue sold for it. Simple as pie.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
TFB:
I probably am going to wind up replacing all and not try to salvage any of the old. Doesn't seem like the right material for the job and I don't want to compromise anything down the road. I didn't want to use the deck material because of the amount of height I needed. 8 Inches. I added a picture of the deck from further out so you can see it.
Sphere:
Thanks for the help. I think I'm leaning toward Azek or ipe, definetly not Trex. But I still have to make up 4 inches on the bottom and 4 on the top. One hell of a lot of stacking material. Azek would be ok for structure and load? I thought it was mosly a dressing (fascia, trim, mouldings, etc.) there is direct load on top of these columns from the second floor.
The azek wont squash any more than wood. But I gotta ask, why not use taller 4x4's so the blocking needn't be so thick?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
I matched the old that was taking down, we were trying to preserve the original look of the first floor. There were 8/4 pieces of wood that was there before, so I put up the same.
Gotcha..I don't know your level of expertise or tooling, but another option is glue up multiple pcs face to face ( like a butcher block slab) and using dry wood, poly glue..you can make anything more stable.
The lower blocks need to be elevated or channeled to keep them from having constantly wet feet..no amount of paint will keep them from swelling and shrinking unevenly.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
i'd glue that up in trex in a heartbeat
View Image
trex loves paint and it machines greatMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, What kind of glue do you use with Trex? Al Smith
any wood glue works , in this case it would probably be PL Premium ( a polyurethane ) or a generic epoxy
my grampa was AJ Smith ( Albert Joseph )
and of course , you already knew the first smiths were named adam & eve, right ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
geof... these structural posts are going to get boxed , right ?
if so .... you can simply put an 8" extension on the top of your posts and strap the sides with plywood
for boxing and lot's of exterior trim we use Miratec ( exterior MDF )
just keep the feet out of the contact so you won't get capillary action
we've done composite columns... trex , Miratech, and Azek.. they all love paint.. we vary the use depending on lot's of factors...
azek and trex take abrasion well, Miratech is inexpensive , loves paint and is rot rsistant ( more than red cedar and redwood )
some times if the finish product is going to be WHITE, we go straight to azek so the owner can avoid painting
if you want some classic columns ... look up "The American Vignola ".
... or " The American Builder's Companion"
... or " Practise of Architecture~The Builder's Guide"
all three are classics and available in softcover
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
The priming would have helped, but I doubt that it would have stoped the curling and checkin. I would be inclined to use Fir, or Cedar primed an painted. You might have to look at glue & laminating smaller pieces to counteract the wood tendency to curl as it dry's out. The checking in the poplar ( or any wood ) will allow moisture to enter and you will never keep paint. Poplar is only good outside if it can be dry.
IF IT WAS EASY , EVERYONE COULD DO IT !!!!
Poplar is no good outside.
Can you build up what you need with the deck material.
I don't think you will get the "checks" to ever go away.
Since you are considering replacing the blocks (which you should), I'd suggest that you run the PT posts the full length, then wrap the tops and bottoms with mitered material (painted pine would be fine, cedar better, synthetics OK too) to simulate plinths and capitals. Lots of pieces and mitering but they're all 45's and you can set up stops on your miter saw and cut everything you need in short order. Preprime all the parts and fasten with ss nails or screws (since you will be nailing to the PT posts). This way, you wind up with no exposed end grain and really don't have to spend a fortune on Ipe or any synthetic material.
You can still blame the HO for not priming (if your conscience lets you), but these would have failed (and caused the balcony to sag) in due time even if they were.
Very good as well, as long as the H.O. isn't too stuck on " make it like it was". I hate that.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Looking at the pictures, the cupping is following the growth rings. I'm wondering if he would have put the growth rings cupping downward, would they have cupped so much? What do you think?
I don't think the checking wouldn't any different even with a heavy primer coated the endgrains with undried Popular...
Bill
I think even if it was KD , its gonna absorb and lose H20 and it will want to be a tree again. Sealing would help, but not stop the movements.
Any wood left un protected outdoors is gonna revert to its former state hydroscopically speaking.
Thats why laminations can stay more stable, you can off set the cups, and bows and each pc can conteract the other.
Just like a flooring project acclimate the wood, then go from there, in this case re-milling would have helped, let it cup, flatten it ( need fatter wood to begin with) then there is less movement after install.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
I'm wondering if he would have put the growth rings cupping downward, would they have cupped so much?
The "normal" cupping due to drying would have been downward in this case, away from the heart. But it doesn't matter which way you lay the heart on a deck. The wood will swell on the bottom where it's wetter and cup upwards.
View Image
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
I would ditto a number of comments on this thread.
"Make it look like it did" be damned. "Make it look good and work well" is a far better approach.
The bases and capitals are too wide for the size of the posts. I would have either used 6x6 posts or boxed in those 4x4s with finished wood or used smaller bases and caps.
And I would NOT place structural posts on flat lumber in its weakest configuration with compression across the grain.
The fact that the two-piece bases and caps weren't fastened or glued together contributed to the warpage, and the galvanized toe-nails sticking out of the posts are hardly attractive. The bases and caps should have been prefastened to the ends of the posts with hidden fasteners, and certainly pre-sealed with two coats on all faces.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
He referred to the columns and handrails in an earlier post. Sounds like these are definitely getting skinned. I'm guessing that these 4x4s are just the innards.
Very good as well, as long as the H.O. isn't too stuck on " make it like it was". I hate that.
Then those are the jobs you need to walk away from.
Rebuilding something, that has failed once, "like it was" is only repeating the original mistake.
I have gotten very good at explaining to the client that "this is the way I am going to approach the project, and this is what it will cost."
I know that because of that, I don't get every job I bid. But I also know that I don't get any jobs that I will regret.
Beware the bikini clad female.
She may be interpreted as offensive.
I have no problem making something "look" as it was before, I do it all the time on restorations. But given our knowledge and experience, a bad design should be recognized and repaired using current best available practices and materials.
As has been said here in the past, just because something is old, doesn't mean it was any good. Craftmanship is being able to make it look like whatever the owner wants. It's what's under the hood that really matters.
I have no problem making something "look" as it was before, I do it all the time on restorations. But given our knowledge and experience, a bad design should be recognized and repaired using current best available practices and materials.
Again....I agree. I hope my original comments didn't sound as though I was ignoring a clients desires in accomplishing a desired "look".
But I'll be damned if I'm going to let them dictate how I achieve that look.
Beware the bikini clad female.
She may be interpreted as offensive.
Eggzactly, that's where you and I say to the Ho's , "Excuse me, but I've seen work like this fail in the past , and that isn't going to please you in the long run, how about we do it THIS way?"
Or somrthing of that nature to let them know that you are not going to follow blindly along with whims.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Absolutely!
There is NO reason to block above and below structural members.
The 4 X 4 posts (and I mighta gone with 6 X 6) should have run from framing of lower deck to framing of upper deck.
The blocks at the base would have rotted out eventually, regardless of species.
I also think it is a mistake to EVER install raw material when it will be exposed to the elements. Relying on a HO to prime/paint at their convenience....especially at this time of year when temperatures minimize the window of opportunity....is a problem waiting to happen.
Any exterior wood....structural or otherwise....should be sealed properly prior to installing, and priced accordingly. Homeowners desire to save a buck and do it themselves be damned.
Beware the bikini clad female.
She may be interpreted as offensive.
Don't limit your self to wood.I would seriosly consider a stone or concrete base to get the wood off the decking and then take the posts all the way up and wrap the top in a trim.
ANDYSZ2
WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST