I have a client who wants a combination screen and storm door in Doug Fir to match the doug fir main entry door. I found some plans thru this site but I have some questions for any and all. She also wants it to be full view to show off the entry door. The entry area is covered with a roof but otherwise open to the weather. The opening is 84″ for no apparent reason so this pretty much has to be a custom job.
1. Could I use biscuits for the joinery?
2. Can gorilla glue be used with biscuits?
3. Anything about Doug fir I should be concerned about in this application?
Thanks,
Strando
Replies
I wouldn't use bisciuts, and no poly glue won't swell them. You have little rack strength being full view, so Mortice and tennon is best. Full mortice and tennon. Then use titebond 3.
Doug fir is great, but tends to spliter when milled, other than that your all set.
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When I really want something to last I use resorcinol glue. The downside of the stuff (besides mixing it) is that it leaves a dark glue line.I've got a couple of under-deck doors I built 20 years ago, using resorcinol. The joints are simple half-lap, with no fasteners, but they're holding together just fine.
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I have two issues with that glue ( over the color).
One is it is very brittle, and can fracture easily.
Second is that it is hell on tool edges, it is too hard.
It does have it's place, and maybe you have had great luck, but I've had issues that steered me away due to those results. I ate a cedar / lexan area well cover, when it fractured and failed fairly catastrophically, the whole frame dis jointed at 10 degrees F out side, and 70 degrees inside, it was like a gren house cover and the greenhouse base was below grade ( interior well) and the cover was outdoors , sloped to shed water..it went ugly wnen the glue broke.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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You might want to post this in the Knots forum also
I used bridle joints on the corners in making the screens & screen doors for my house, with a dowel peg for insurance. The original 100-yr old ones had a metal pin which rusted out. I agree with the statement that Doug Fir tends to split and splinter. I started using 5/4 cypress from a local mill.
Don't even think about biscuits for this. It should be mortise and tenon, but could be done with dowels. I'd use TitebondIII for the glue.
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Piffin ......... What do you think about Kreg jig pocket holes , glue ( titebond 3) and plugs for finish?
I'd not. Not with that much glass. Those screws are liable to pull out, or snap even. The rack stress on a door that size is enormous, just hanging off the hinge side.
A really wide kick rail helps, but there is a limit that looks right, and then you have the wood movement to consider. Say a 14" tall kick rail, that wants to expand and contract maybe a 1/4"-1/2" over it's width..whats gonna give? It'll crack, ( split) if constrained TOO much.
Ideally, that door would have twin tennons in that rail, wedged from the stile, pinned is optional. I've done fox wedges for similar, and that is bulletproof, but takes a lot of skill to execute properly.
With the forces on a door and the thiness of the material (5/4) you need all the surface area in your joinery that you can muster.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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Sphere..........setting here looking at my tennoning jig setting on the shelf next to my Kreg jig , gotta remember when to use which and stay with the proven.
I love pocket screws, they are the nuts..but doors? No way.
I took a wood handscrew clamp and VEE notched the jaws to hold a 3/4" I.D. black pipe drill bit guide. It is basically a BIG doweling jig. I've done ext doors with dowels, and I STILL think full M&T is more better.
The split tennon on the kick rail allows movement, yet keeps it all attached solidly.
I hate full view glass or scren doors, they often won't stay in plane, and are then forced to use a strong closer, mounted either too high or too low. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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The pattern I have also indicates split tenons.
The local high end lumber place doesn't sell 5/4 doug fir for some reason. Only 1 and 2" milled to 3/4 and 1 1/2, so I was thinking I would just use the 1 1/2'' and leave it the thickness it comes in, esp. after the warnings about splintering. I figured that would help with the strength.
Thanks for all the input from everyone.
Check the latch set will accomodate the thickness. Some are for 1 1/8" doors and they may not have enough reach for 1 1/2".Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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wouldn't take you much to plane down to about 1-3/16"
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When you mentioned glass, that brings up another issue for the OP to keep in mind on a fullview. If this is to be real glass, it has to be .....CRS senior moment happening here.....tensioned...no prestressed....help me out here - or it has to be plexi or lexan
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Tempered, but I assumed that was a given.
BTW, I have asimilar sized ( but 47" wide) unit I am repairing here, I added threaded inserts and machine bolts to attach the wood framed glass, and screen panel. The old wood screws were wallowing out the holes at the yearly switcheroo. The HO won't have the recessed turn buckles or any other method of installing the storm glass/screen.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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Tempered GlassThank You
Thank You
Thank YouGlad that doesn't happen too often. It was right in my head until the second I went to type it, then the vacumn kicked in...
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I was playing guitar with my family yesterday, a song I've played a million times..brain fade and POOF, my train derailed..and I was sober too.
"Talk of Poems, prayers and promises, and things that we believe in"....then, my mind ran out of words and my hands kept playing..LOL
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"Safety glazing" is probably the term-of-art you need.
I think you were trying to remember "tempered." however, you can use (oe are mandated to use) other products than just tempered. Like laminate glass, laminated tempered glass, or synthetics such as acrylics or polycarbonates or the like.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Tempered, Piffin. - lolSince it's a door it would have to be tempered safety glass unless it can have a Lexan or Plexiglass panel.For the frame work, I would use 5/4, KD, VG Fir, and get a door rail and stile set for the joints. The glue would be Titebond III or Gorilla Glue. I would probably want at least 3" stiles and top rail, with a minimum of 10" for the kick rail. I would also try very hard to talk the customer into a middle rail for added strength as well as resistance to flexing of the panel when it gets slammed (and it will - lol)Depending on the exposure, I would use several coats of a highly UV resistant finish - and advise the customer that it will definitely require maintenance if it's exposed to the sun for several hours each day.
I am a Kreg Virgin, so I'm not sure. I know some guys find ti makes certain things incredibly easy, but keep in mind this is a moving assembly with small joints subject to a lot of stresses. the things I think of Kreg for are all fixed items, not moving under varying loads.
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You might want to check with a co. called Easy Change. See what they have to offer, may work and be very cost effective.
I am surprised no one mentioned to use vertical grain wood to make the door. This will at least reduce movement during seasonal changes and will hold finish material better. I would use the thickest material you can for the given lockset you are using and I would use mortise and tenon with epoxy adhesive applied about 1/3 of the way out from the stile/rail junction. Door material at one time called for a standard of 25 rings/inch to be considered "dense" growth. Doubtful that new material of this grade can be had but you may be able to get some nice old "stuff" from a recycler. Mahogany or spanish cedar may be a good alternate.
True that. I see you are new to BT, lemme welcome ya in true BT fashion and bust yer chops..epoxy is not a good call..LOL.
And where does one get Spanish cedar these days? You might want to fillout your profile so we are all on the same page as far as climate and material availabilty for our respective locales.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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Sphere, why is it you don't like epoxy? We have used it to assemble everything from screen doors to 2 3/4 " thick carriage barn doors in woods from redwood, to mahogany to spanish cedar. We also use it to assemble new column bases in mahogany and to restore stave wood columns. In response to your question about spanish cedar, I have had no problem obtaining it.
Epoxy is a broad spectrum of adhesives and coatings, I have not enjoyed it when employed in a fashion that is deemed "permanant" and yet due to various and sundry reasons, I have to repair the said work..
I am old school, make it good, but allow a margin for error or repairablity, for the next guy. Just like a service loop on explosives wiring. Give me some slack, and we all live, make it tight? BOOM. We all go.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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I can appreciate that argument. We recently made repairs to 110 year old white pine sash and it was nice to be able to disassemble the units to install the new pieces that were required. With a door however, the stresses imposed are considerably more than a sash. Any attempt at creating a rigid frame with no adhesive is probably going to result in a degree of failure, especially when you are asking to create a door with such a large and heavy piece of glass.
Ok, play with me, how about we usea fox wedge, and water soluble ( steam) glue?
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And 30 years from now how will anyone know you used water soluble adhesive? I am NOT disagreeing with you about the fact that disassembly is a nice feature. WE are restoration contractors and generally go to great pains to preserve original fabric. Look at epoxy as a means of not only providing strength to the joint but also as a means of preventing water intrusion and the attendant decay that accompanies it. We seal all of our copes with epoxy sealer prior to assembly with the thought that we may be helping to prevent the need for repair at some distant point in time. Everyone has their methods, one should not be viewed as particularly better than another otherwise we would not even be discussing using wood for doors and windows, we might all be bronze casting to insure the greatest durability.
Edited 11/30/2008 10:49 pm ET by amillionquestions
Kudos, but is not epoxy sealer an invite for poor adhesive joinery?
As well as you, I am not belittleing or trolling, I am curious as to other's methods of work, and mentality of longevity.
Often I stick with tried and true, and negate the "oh boy" stuff, and as any paradox sails, sometimes they don't build them like they used to, for a good reason.
If you'd like to discuss a fox wedged tennon, that would qualify your experiance in this realm, and being as I see a dearth of info in your user profile, and a very recent log in, I am suspect, that maybe...I know you?
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True - in the same way that Sphere assumed tempered glass as a given, I assumed CVG as a given for the wood
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Not related to the structural requirements of the door, but a common problem with guys not used to working with doug fir is the thinning of the first coat of finish to properly soak into the surface.
A second concern if the screen door is glass is the amount of heat that can build up between the doors if it's in direct sunlight. If in direct sunlight, this can be a lingering problem that's hard on stain-grade finishes.
Sounds like fun!
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I'd try to use VG Fir if you can get it.
http://www.combinationdoor.com has a line of wood storm doors that includes 7 footers. They offer custom sizing as well and I'd bet anything that they'd be willing to build one out of fir.
I actually called them and while they will sell the locking plates, they would not make one out of fir.
I don't know where you are, but in the N.E. part of the US, Bateman Bros, Lum. in Chalfont, Pa. has the goods.
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