……………….Hard.
Can they?
Where and when I learned to frame you always built the stair on site. I learned long ago the basics.
I’m pretty sure I’ve told the story about a hundered times of how when I found out I was getting deployed again in 2002 I had a guy working with me who was pretty close to going it on his own so we handed of some tools and and he took over some of my old customers.
One thing I was pushing at that time was setting stairs since so many jobs I went to for rail installs were so screwed up. I left before it took off and he never persued it any farther.
Fast forward and he’s getting some calls to install stairs as well as rails because a few core customers are having big problems with them. Some even failing inspection they are set so bad.
So I’ve gone out with him to show him the finer points and build his confidence in his stair setting skills.
On not one single job has the plan had ANY Specifics in regards to the stairs. Just some lines drawn where the stairs should be. Not a single platform was right and most openings were off. Not by 1/4’s or 1/2’s but by full inches and often more than one.
But One of these jobs? I just don’t get how it could be so hard. It’s a 4 or 5 million dollar house. It has 7 sets of stairs. It has a complicated mansard style roof that has pages of details dedicated to it. It has two whole pages dedicated to steel connections. 45 pages………………… Not one shows a single stair detail.
Now I know the stair shop sent out drawings with dimensions. Nowhere to be found.
So after sorting out the stairs on the job and figuring out what went where, the fun begins.
Not one single opening was right. The closest was off by a foot. The worst by 5 feet.
I don’t even know what formula you use to get an 11′ 2″ rise out of 9 Treads, but that’s the one they used.
How can you have TWO job supers and a framer capable of framing 8K sqft and an architect who can draw 45 pages of floor plan and detail and a stair guy who can deliver $100K worth of stairs, and not get one single opening right?
OK, Rant over.
Replies
each step over a foot?...........BRILLIANT!
Yeah, They left an opening big enough for a 9 tread stair to cover 11' 2" in rise.
What's the matter? Lose your majic wand?;)
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Sounds like the making of a new business.. consulting to the G.C.'s on just stairs.
isn't that what the tower of babel was all about?
Are you sure you weren't called in to install the elevator?
I got good at winders for that same reason.
I've never had the pleasure of doing a winder under the "old" rules, but the code seems pretty tight on them now. The 6" min. width seems to kill the chance of using a winder on our jobs.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
<The 6" min. width seems to kill the chance of using a winder on our jobs>
What do you mean by that?
Ralph,That is the minimum dimension for the tread at the "inside" of the winder.Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
Edited 1/25/2007 11:17 pm ET by stevent1
Yep, I know that. Just finished a set.
I wanted to know why that posed a problem for Jon.
Ralph, You will have to get that from Jon. I am in complete agreement with you on architectural details. As a 30 plus year cabinetmaker, millwork or casework never show up om the plans for residential work. No elevations. Just lines or dotted lines. It is hard to believe the GC did not RFI the Architect on the stairs.Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
Maybe I've just not been able to wrap my head around it, but the requirements in the IRC2003 always seem to make it impractical to fit a winder in the space that I've had to work with.Here is what my code book says:"Winder treads shall have a minimum tread depth of 10 inches (254 mm) measured as above at a point 12 inches (305) mm from the side where the treads are narrower. Winder treads shall have a minimum tread depth of 6 inches (152 mm) at any point. Within any flight of stairs, the greatest winder tread depth at the 12 inch (305 mm) walk line shall not exceed the smallest by more than 3/8 inch (9.5 mm)."We just completed the framing on a second floor addition. The house is only 24' wide, with a hallway in the center so getting the stairs up posed somewhat of a problem. When I did layout (on CAD) to see if I could use a winder, I was unsuccessful.I'll see if I can find my CAD file tonight to determine exactly where I was failing. If I can find it, I can post it as a .pdf and you guys can steer me right!
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Post your stairwell sizes length and width, then your total rise.
Maybe I can help, never tried stairs over the internet before!
Heres the biggest set I have done.
View Image
Those look like mine.
Only those are prettier
and have more steps
and were probably done right the first time
but other than that. just like mine.
Seriously, the key to wrapping my head around the winder min tread deal was to draw it out on a square, with the winders treads terminating to 0 in the inside corner; then draw a square in the inside corner that covers the tread area where not up to code.
View Image
http://jhausch.blogspot.comAdventures in Home BuildingAn online journal covering the preparation and construction of our new home.
I have to build a set like this and fit them in a very tight spot and a 9"boxed newel is probably going to be the only way to meet code and fit them in the space required. Luckily the width reqirement is fo above the handrail, otherwise I would have some problems.
Thats all I do, I snap out the square on the floor. Then frame my boxes to my lines.
Once the boxes are built I lay a piece of sheeting on top of it, take a 1" wide piece of scrap and scribe my nosing onto the sheet.
Easy way, add 10-1/4" to the well width, that is your green box. THen measure in 10-1/4" from the inside corner. That is your red box. On those same red lines make a mark at 6". Then snap lines from the 0" tread width through the 6" mark and thats your blueprint.
I put the first landing of the winders in the wrong place the first time, luckily I caught it before I had 5 more boxes sitting on top of it. :)
Sure was easier in the old days._______________________________________________________________
Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Highjack alert.
Stilletto, how are things going over there in Battle creek? You still framing or did you leave those contracts go and concentrate on smaller things?
blue"...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
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I just finished a 1300 sq ft ranch frame this week.
I don't have another one on the books until spring, the contractor that had me framing nonstop went out of business oweing me $20,000. He claimed bankruptcy and took me to the edge of it. He lost the sub division, but the guy who bought it wants me to finish framing the houses in it.
I have a set of prints coming to me today or tommorrow on a 4,000 sq ft home. I have to get a price around for that.
My 1,200 sq roof is still going too.
You getting the itch to come out of retirement? If'n I land that 4,000 sq ft house I could use some help.
Frank is still framing full time and together we would be glad to booger with you on that 4k frame. What is the timing?
blue"...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
From the best of TauntonU.
I thought Frank was headed to Wyoming. Where's he framing full time at?
Timing wise it shouldn't be too far away. Not really sure. The guy is waiting on prices from people (subs) and we can get started when he knows about what the final price is going to be.
Financing isn't an issue for him either from what I hear, he owns a big radiology building here in town.
We went out to Wyoming to check a few things out. We made some important contacts out there and might very well do a project or two out there later this summer when things hit full stride. Theres a project of 130 duplexs that interest us. One guy is trying to get us to take over his steel building business but I don't think that interests us.
What style house is this 4ker? How are the numbers?
blue"...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
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I am waiting on a final set of plans, I haven't seen them yet. So I have no idea what style it be.
How much do you guys charge? Is it by sq. ft?
txlandlord: That curved stairway you built is a work of art. Very nice display of design...and it looks like a superb example of fit and finish as well.
Stan
How much do you guys charge? Is it by sq. ft?
Yes, if it's a square box.
blue"...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
From the best of TauntonU.
When I get the plans I'll try to get you some pics of it at least. Get some feedback from you if you and Frank are going to jump on board.
Pics of the plans will be good enough.
Most 4 k houses can be quite variable in their style and time that it takes to build them. I've worked on 4k homes that were done in 300 hours and some that took twice, maybe three times that. It's too much of a mixed bag to make a call without know something about it.
For your area, I'm envisioning a fairly basic structure..maybe with the top roof planing down over the garage on one side and two reverse gables on the front. Nothing too dramatic, but not really a simple box either.
I'll be interested in seeing what it is and the time frame. Have they dug the basement yet?
blue"...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
From the best of TauntonU.
The hole has been dug, thats what he says. I haven't been to the site yet.
I'll get you some pictures as soon as I can.
Most houses in this area are not that special, once in a while one gets thrown in. Mostly Archway executives. We have been getting alot of Chicago transplants here from Keebler as well.
Framing in your area slowed down? How busy is Frank and his crew?
The times that I could have used a winder are when I'm trying to fit a set of stairs in a tight space. Typically, the stairs include one 90 degree turn, but not a 180 degree set like the ones you have posted. Maybe that makes a difference.In the PDF file I posted, I could not get an extra rise in the given space by using a winder. In fact, the winder uses a slight bit more space, and is certainly more difficult to frame/finish and navigate for the end user.Like I said, maybe I'm just missing something, but the requirements that we're under seem to reduce the benefit to almost nothing.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
You are right. With the 6" minimum, whether its 90 or 180 you might as well just have a landing. Its easier to frame, provides a place to pause, and its usually easier to get furniture up.
Edit. Try your example with the third riser on the corner running on a 45. You save a bit. I worried this problem to death when it came out and couldn't make winders worth the bother.
Edited 1/27/2007 2:25 am ET by fingersandtoes
"Edit. Try your example with the third riser on the corner running on a 45. You save a bit. I worried this problem to death when it came out and couldn't make winders worth the bother."I did what I think you meant, and it didn't seem to make a difference.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
jon.. move the left edge of the 2d riser towards the bottom..
move the left edge of the 3d riser right into the corner
another trick with winders is to draw the 12" climb line of travel
( it's not just a trick.. it's also part of the code..)
the line of travel 12" from the inside corner should be consistent
when i'm doing cad layout , i use a lot of 6" circles and 12" circles and then connect the dotsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,I like your idea about the 6" and 12" circles. I have been using offset commands, but I bet the circles are faster.With your suggested method, would I get another rise? It seems to me like the net result is the same.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
you wouldn't get another riser that way, but i think the treads would look more uniform.. and your 12" offset travel line would be more uniformMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I made the adjustments in example B. Is this like what you were saying?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
yes .. B is what i was saying.. C has possibilities
try this.. draw the dashed 12" offset travel line
keep your 6" circle on the right ( the inside turn )
at the 12 " line , use a 10" circle ( this is code in a lot of places , including that code book someone referenced )
on your first TREAD, pull your 2d riser LINE so it is tangent to the 6" circle AND the 10" circle
on your new 2d tread ( resulting from the above ), set another 10" circle and 6" circle.. move the 3d riser line so it is tangent to the circles
keep going up the stairs making those adjustments.. that's pretty much it.. maybe some minor adjustment if one is REALLY close to the outside corner ( then move it to the outside corner)
BTW... we use regular 11" oak treads and glue them together to get our winder stock out of them..
the EZ-Guide makes cutting these treads a piece of cake
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I use circles a lot in design too. A 2'8D to slide around to check comfortable spaces for passage in something like halls and laundry rooms, bathrooms etc. Increase to 36" and 60" for universal design. 42" for kitchen clearance layouts.
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The circle idea is great. I can honestly say I've never thought of it before, and probably wouldn't have were it not for Mike, Holly, yourself and others. Another item tucked away...
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Sorry John, I don't have a graphics package or scanner to post a drawing.
Maybe our code is different, but it only allows a two or a three winder corner. That means either one tread at 45 or two at 30 degrees. It doesn't allow, as in your drawing, the other treads to be angled in any way. It does allow angles on a curved stair, but they must all be at 90 degrees to the direction of travel (basically following the radius).
I got caught once with too many risers converging at the same point on a winder.
I installed the hand rail after carps had framed the stairs. 135 deg. turn around a post with four rises stacked at the narrow end.
Inspector allowed me to leave it only because he had missed the stacking of the risers on his framing inspection and I wasn't responsible for the framing. He did tell me that a maximum of three risers is the code. Anybody else ever hear of that rule?
He did however make me tear out the handrail and raise it because I had negleted to check recent code changes and had a 34" height for the handrail/guardrail as opposed to the 36" then enforced. Couple of pics of the transition piece I made that I couldn't . I use it as an expensive paper weight now.
That's heartbreaking. You have got to figure out some way to use it.
Well it not only serves to hold papers down it also reminds me that checking the code book may keep me from $3500 mistakes.
I ate the second hand rail and labor.
So it does have a purpose.
Fingers,What code are you under? I could make great use of two 30° treads, if they didn't also require 6" min. tread width.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
The National Building Code of Canada. It has an appendix to the relevant code entry that shows dimensioned plans of acceptable winders. Probably no use to you at all unfortunately.
Fingers,
The National Building code of Canada says something like "Where winders converge at a point" there can be no more than 3 in 90 degrees and no more than one set of such winders in a staircase.
While the winders here do converge at some point, it is an imaginary point outside the structure of the stair and I have successfully gotten winders like this past building inspectors a couple of times by pointing out the language of the code. Mine were usually 4" at the inside and four winders to a 90, which gives a tread width of just about 9" at the 12" walk line. An inch or two more would probably be better. I don't do them to save space. They don't save any more than a split landing. I do them to look good.
I just pulled out my old Geotec Versalog slide rule to figure that out. It feels like when I use a brace and bit or pull out a hand axe on the job to carve something to fit. I never used to think I'd be the old fogey with the ancient tools and techniques - but I am sometimes.
Ron
The finishing stages of winders are tough, especially with handrails. I try to avoid them at any cost. The are expensive to build and finish. But with the requirements they are comfortable and flow well.
Winders help out in areas where you need alot of rise in 3', instead of a flat landing. You gain three risers instead of just one.
I build all mine with the 6" minimum tread width and it eats up some room. But in the area where a flat landing would have been, I gained 5 risers in my picture. Saving me the run of 4 treads, 40".
In your picture the measurement for the winders was 1'-1 13/16". That is a bit big, if you start out with winders that measurement would be around 10" to the inside of the wall, not to the outside as shown. That gains you almost 5-1/2" in run right there, and an extra riser.
With the 10" measurement that gives you the minimum 6" tread width.
Stilletto,I meant to post this earlier, but it's been sitting on another computer since I forgot to hit "post".I'm really having trouble wrapping my head around this.In the example you posted, it looks to me like you only gained one rise. You could have had two 3'x3' landings, and a step from between the landings.In the pic, are your winders in 30° increments?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
>>>>>>>In the example you posted, it looks to me like you only gained one rise. You could have had two 3'x3' landings, and a step from between the landings.
Landings eat up a 3'x3' chunk at a time, and only give you really two risers. One up to the landing and one off it. Winders give you 4 risers in the same space.
In my example I built 6 winder boxes which gave me 8 risers instead of 4 with the two landing idea. I am counting the risers up to and after the landings/winders. All the boxes are at 30 degrees as well.
They gain you room, but you have to pay for it with labor and materials.
The series of winders ate up nearly 8', but I gained 8 risers in the process. There was no other way these stairs were going to fit in here. I took this picture in the RO of the front door.
View Image
I hope my continued comments and questions are not being construed as argumentative or rude, I really am trying to get this figured out, but can't seem to work it all out.I have posted the fourth version of my drawing. Plan "A" is my guess of how the winder in your pics is drawn. I got within on riser in "B", but used 8-3/4" less run to do that. In "C", my run is slightly longer than yours (1.25") but I think the total rise is the same in the end.In "A", I guessed that you have about 18" between the two stringers that are 180° from each other. Is that about right?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
B is short by two risers, and A is short by three. THats 20"-30" of run short.
It's 10-1/4" x2=20-1/2" space in between the the two sets of winders. THats 4 treads in 20-1/2".
I am not taking your comments as rude, I think they are valid. THere is no such thing as too much info on a new topic. I hope I can explain this to you without confusing the crap out of you.
Nice, neat work. How do winders 3 & 4 get finished out at the narrow ends? "But to be honest some folks here have been pushing the envelope quite a bit with their unnecessary use if swear words. They just put a character in to replace a letter. But everyone knows what they're saying." Sancho
The way they laid out there was a flat area about 20" wide. That area got a plant shelf I think I have got some pictures after plaster here I'll try to find them.
THe plans called for a 90 degree set of stairs no winders. But the GC changed materials and not the plans. Floor joists went from 2x10's to 11-7/8" I joists.
That small difference in height made these the only option they would agree on. It actually fits well with the two story foyer they are in.
I'd love a pic...but, now I'm guessing a handrail and balusters there? "But to be honest some folks here have been pushing the envelope quite a bit with their unnecessary use if swear words. They just put a character in to replace a letter. But everyone knows what they're saying." Sancho
THats not installed yet, I will get pictures when they have been.
Sorry Snort for some reason the pictures are not on my camera. I know I took them but I can't seem to find them.
I'll get some soon, I have to start throwing trim on in there soon.
I winder where these stairs are going?
Alice
We needed to use winders to fit a normal staircase into an area where a spiral had been - lucky there was a lot of extra space, but without winders it would have been an 8.5"ish rise if I remember. We split each of the two landings. Probably doesn't meet the 6" requirement, but works very well. The railing was a pain - made drawings (by hand, but from multiple directions), got the stairmaker to ok them, got the stairs - and the smooth, contemporary railing design got changed somewhere to a standard, traditional newel-posts with a standard railing.Much annoyance between the contractor and lumberyard ensues. Eventually, we return the (custom walnut) newels and railing, and get a guy who used to be the lumberyard's foreman to mill a bunch of round rails/posts, round 45-degree bends, and the contractor spent a lot of time fitting it all together. Solid as a rock, looks great, feels great. Took many (6+) months in total.View Image
Edited 1/27/2007 4:04 pm ET by jesup
Cool railing<G> Definitly worth your hassle. "But to be honest some folks here have been pushing the envelope quite a bit with their unnecessary use if swear words. They just put a character in to replace a letter. But everyone knows what they're saying." Sancho
Don't let that minimum tread width throw you off. They are a walk in the park.
Or is it a space issue?
Just a guess and maybe Jon will answer,
But I've seen a few that have winders thrown in as an after thought and don't have enough space for a real 6" min winder tread.
Youre gonna have to let it go before it grabs you .
Anger can eat you up and this will eat you .
Brown Bag has lectured on this subject before .
Tim
Jon, you should work down here. Code for winders is 4" at the narrowest...it's the continuous handrail that's so much fun.Hey, I am taking an excel class, had to in order to copy your spreadsheets<G> "But to be honest some folks here have been pushing the envelope quite a bit with their unnecessary use if swear words. They just put a character in to replace a letter. But everyone knows what they're saying." Sancho
Are you sure you weren't called in to install the elevator?
LOL Yea, or maybe it is a spiral.
If I was the homeowner I would be sueing the Arch for incompetence on such an important and basic issue. And IMO the cost to fix some major reframing issues should come out of the Arch fee.
I've done a fair amount of stairs and handrails...9 rises over 11'2", I'd say someone's only looking at one flight<G> "But to be honest some folks here have been pushing the envelope quite a bit with their unnecessary use if swear words. They just put a character in to replace a letter. But everyone knows what they're saying." Sancho
Robert,
On not one single job has the plan had ANY Specifics in regards to the stairs. Just some lines drawn where the stairs should be.
You probably know that this is probably more comon than anything else. As design / buiders, we show lines and sometimes stair cross sections, spec the handrail, balusters, newel, treads, landing floor material, skirt material, etc., but the final is usually tweaked a bit and draws from the experience of the stair builder and / or the trim carpenter.
Below is an excerpt from AIBD (American Institute or Building Designers) and common architectural disclaimer language used in home design work. Someone else posted about cabinet specs. The statements below more fully explains situations like these.
Architects and building designers may have resources to create shop drawings, but they can cause a significant increase in cost. Stair shops and cabinet shops can create more "user / creator friendly" shop and detail drawings as a part of their design / build package. Even in homes we design, my generally indicative and conceptual plan goes to the cabinet shop or stair shop for shop drawings and detail.
A. Plan Standard
The Designer uses plan standards as appropriated by the American Institute of Building Designers and Architectural Graphic Standards. The information contained here-in represents established standards for light frame construction, and inclusions by the Designer in providing plans for the subject Owner Project. All plans shall meet the requirements of all local building departments, as well as local and national codes that may be required.
B. Preparation and Use
The Construction Documentation shall be provided so as to graphically convey the appropriate design requirements for the project. They should not, however, be interpreted as specific shop drawings as they do not indicate every consideration in absolute detail. They shall sufficiently detail the construction requirements so as to provide information for funding, permitting, contracting and general construction.
Edited 1/27/2007 10:03 am ET by txlandlord
While all of that is true,
The designer/architect also has a responsiblity for ensuring what they have drawn is realistic.
Beyond that, when they put dimensions to paper, they should have a working knowledge of how they work.
For example ( a real problem recently encountered) if you have an L shaped stair with a 10 tread run from the first floor to the landing, and an 8' trimmed opening, and they are drawn in a manner that shows the stair clearly NOT projecting into the opening, then the person who designed it bears some responsibility for knowing if it is realistic or not.
Were not talking about a few inches. Often we're talking feet.
That's indicitive of the problem. I've seen more than a few plans as of late that have a stair opening with no dimensions and many details ( doors, walls balconies etc etc.....) that leave no room for the actual stair.
Jon, this is 3/4" = 1' scale...10" tread 12" walkline...2x6 parting wall...sorry for the down and dirty..got a date<G> "But to be honest some folks here have been pushing the envelope quite a bit with their unnecessary use if swear words. They just put a character in to replace a letter. But everyone knows what they're saying." Sancho
Snort,Do you have 6" of tread width at all points on those winders? I tried to duplicate your drawing and couldn't do it and still have the min. width.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon.
What I don't see in any of your drawings is the actual footprint, starting and ending landings and run and rise for the stairs. Also, just where your headroom requirement of 80" starts.
One of the drawings seems to indicate you have plenty of headroom to add more treads/risers at the beginning of the stairs. That is, one or more additional straight treads can fit in before you start the winders. Gaining a tread or two before you hit the winder might be the way to go if your headroom permits.
Jon, move the 6" circles so they center on the parting wall, where the treads start. You example has the 6" farther out...man, I'm glad we've got a 4" min<G> "But to be honest some folks here have been pushing the envelope quite a bit with their unnecessary use if swear words. They just put a character in to replace a letter. But everyone knows what they're saying." Sancho
You are absolutely right. The plans should work and make sense, with detail added by others.
Attached is a nice set we design / built. We gave it the time it deserved, at the drawing table and on site.
As designer / builder, I took responsibility. I was personally on site when we framed the floating stairs and again with the stair man. I ordered all of the stair parts and took drawings with measurements to our cabinet door shop so they could provide the custom oak treads.
TX,
You need to hook up with Stan Foster.
BTW Great looking stairs and house. Do you do the "Parade of Homes"?
Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
thanks for the complements.
We have not done a Parade of Homes, but have been in a Home Show and won best of show.
Good Lord, Man! I hope I don't hurt my eyes trying to put them back in my head. Great concept!
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Thank you very much.
I have not been on BT in a few days. Busy, busy, busy.
On a similar vein, I just recently heard about a snafu on a local building. It was suppposed to be moved in way back in Thanksgiving time. The foundation required a lot of extra blasting and drainage before they even got started on the building itself.Fast forward to now - They are ready to install the elevator, but NOBODY knew anything about the fact that for an elevator to bottom out on the basement floor, there must be a deeper recess below the elevator shaft.I can see jackjhammers and sump pumps in somebodys futureAnd I'm not all that psychic!;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
For years I was a GC until a friend asked me to help him out on a job. From that point on I got a lot of calls from GCs to do particular work for them. The majority was millwork and stairs.
When I learned carpentry I learned to hang a door first by making the jamb stock using a jointer and table saw and then installing it. Eventually I worked in a mill shop and learned to make windows and doors.