My observations of late have been keen and caused me to inquire (rant) of your experiences with this topic.
I have come to the realization lately that the vast majority of residential building/remodeling companies reguire that their employees have/use their own vehicle(s) for the services they provide as an EMPLOYEE (emphasis).
Two doors down from HQ of where I am employed is an electrician with two crews and two trucks; company owned. Couple of driveways away is a plumber; same deal. X number of crew and a matching number of company vehicles.
Grand Union has stock delivered with it’s own vehicles driven by it’s employees. So does Sunoco and Staples. You get the picture……………
For the pupose of this discussion, let’s leave out any mention of the fact that the aforementioned company vehicles are stocked with company owned tools.
So; how is it where you work?
As I peruse the help wanted adds for carpenters, they all require trucks or transportation.
Where I am, there is one van besides the p/u the boss drives around in. Most days it sits. Sometimes I use it when I need to bring big/large/heavy company purchased goods to a job or haul back debris; neither of which I will do with my own vehicle nor do the other emplyees for the most part.
I keep getting the feeling that the industry as a whole treats carps like cheap whores. It’s frustrating to me. Why should we be required or expected to use our own vehicle for work purposes?
If you own your own business or just have an opinion, considering the exposure your clients have to the vehicles your workers are operating, wouldn’t you rather have a homogenous fleet of vehicles to present to your clients?
Let’s hear what you have to say.
Eric
Replies
I agree with you 100%. Even the write off doesn't help. Look in the paper for jobs and it's usually the carps that must have wheels, tools and a clean driving record.
Since I work in the industry, any "dude" who shows up for the job in his vehicle with a pencil in his hat and his tool belt on is labeled a carp. Most don't last long or are given limited duties. Who ever hires these duds has no expertise in any trade so they are bull sh&*&&*tted from the get go.
With all these new MCMansions being built, you would think true craftsman would be in great need.
It isn't just carpenters....
Because sh1t rolls down hill brother. It's the sad truth. Only a select few contractors can command the sort of pricing it takes to be able to afford that kind of overhead. If I put all my guys in company trucks I'd be out of business in about month and a half. Plumbers bill out at up to $200/hr, an electrician can fetch $150. I've been blacklisted by some GC's for billing out C/O's at $45/hr/man. The math ain't all that hard bro.
That being said, I don't expect my guys to use their own vehicles for anything other than getting to the jobsite and back home again. Even Trump has a commute.
That being said, I don't expect my guys to use their own vehicles for anything other than getting to the jobsite and back home again. Even Trump has a commute.
I agree with you. They should be able to get to work and carry your own tools but not required to carry company stuff unless compensated for it. When I have people working for me if they stop for materials or something I pay them extra.
Headstrong, I'll take on anyone!
You're an exception. You have A (1) job going. Your guys show up at work; ie 'the site'.
What if you had enough work lined up to keep 2 or 3 jobs going? You would have to tool the jobs as you do the one you have going. How are the tools and manpower going to get there?
Not trying to argue; only debate. Something to think about.[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
If I had two or three crews, then I would need to own enough tools for two or three crews..... that would include trucks. So yes, I see your point quite clearly. But I can't ever see that being possible as a carpentry subcontractor unless I choose to stop paying my guess respectable wages. The money's gotta come from somewhere and it sure ain't gonna come from the GC's pockets.
Maybe it's different working for homeowner as a contractor rather than subbing from GC's. Must be. FWIW... I wasn't trying to argue with you either.... just reminding you that you can't get blood from a stone.View Image
Diesel, we have a larger framing crew around here. They had about 25 crews during the last ten years. Each crew had a company truck. They had dozens of skytraks. They had three cranes.
They averaged about $500 net profit on each house they framed.
Now, they are down to three crews. Most of the guys left for AZ. They had three cranes in the sub we are working on last week. Their guys never know how much they will be making each week on their checks. The owners have to pay their overhead first, then dole out the remaining dollars to the crew.
When you analyze the return on the investment in framing, any competent business man would laugh at you for staying in it. The risks are huge and the returns are negligent. I don't think I've ever turned a true profit, if I had payed myself for every hour worked. I was charging more than anyone else in my market and couldn't get more. I was putting out production as fast as anyone and much faster than most. I still can't say I've ever turned true profit.
Remoders might be able to get themselves set up to turn a profit, but if the carpenter is out in the field, wearing tools, he won't be running a profitable remod firm, unless he's delegated the administration, sales and marketing, and all the other important components of a true business.
Complaining that we are cheap whores because we don't get a truck might be a fun exercise, but the financial realities of residential carpentry are pretty well set up against it, in most markets. I'd like it to be different, but reality is reality. I know you know what the real score is...
blue
I keep getting the feeling that the industry as a whole treats carps like cheap whores
And we are in an up cycle now. Wait a few more years and you'll wish you were being treated like a cheap whore!
blue
We are a handyman service/light remodeler. I provide trucks and the majority of the tools. They provide basic hand tools. I want the trucks to look the same, professional and clean and by owning them I can have it my way. DanT
Good response!.
Thanks for your input Dan.
Eric[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Framers.... we're all cheap whores!View Image
Did you really just say you've been black listed for billing 45/hr for change orders? In the Boston area?
Eric - One thing that I recently learned is that if I ask an employee to transport anything in their vehicle and they have an accident, it's MY insurance that foots the bill. I'm not sure if that's consistant in other States, but here in Washington it's true.
Or what if someone working for me has a vehicle in poor repair, their brakes fail as they are traveling from one jobsite to another? I wonder how exposed I am in that case?
Sure makes providing well maintained and safe vehicles for employees to drive seem more affordable when you factor in the risks. Tipi, Tipi, Tipi!
http://www.asmallwoodworkingcompany.com
Yup, that's what I said. I stopped getting calls from two different GC's. After awhile I noticed so I called one of them to see what's up.... he told me I screwed him on a deck he added to the scope by billling it out at $45/man/hour. The sh1tty part was that I went back through the numbers on that frame and I averaged $49/man/hr on that house frame and he was perfectly with fine with that.... because it was a lump sum bid. If he actually took the time to do that math he would have realized that the $45/hr deck we built was the cheapest part of the work I did for him.
The other GC really screwed some things up for me. He called a lumber salesman (who referred me) and complained about the same thing.... billing out CO's at $45/hr. My contract clearly states that any additional work outside of original agreed upon scope is billed out at $45/hr. It's right there in the front directly underneath the payment schedule. But he complained anyway... and I haven't heard much from that lumber salesman lately either.
It's discouraging to say the least.View Image
............don't hijack my thread![email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Burns me up too!!! And another thing.....I bet that same GC has no problem taking his truck to a dealer for service and paying up to $ 85 and hour. We bring our shop to you to make 45 an hour !!!! (here in Mary Land I charge 35)
Sorry for the rant!!!
PLPGood times, riches and Son of a _itches
I've seen more than I can recall.
J. Buffett
Or what if someone working for me has a vehicle in poor repair, their brakes fail as they are traveling from one jobsite to another? I wonder how exposed I am in that case?
What if an employee owned vehicle runs over a child in the driveway of one of your clients?
Not exactly what I was looking for but................I suppose no matter who's vehicle it is it's gonna be a mess.
Would you ever ask an employee to transport another employee in his own vehicle?[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
>>>>One thing that I recently learned is that if I ask an employee to transport anything in their vehicle and they have an accident, it's MY insurance that foots the bill. I'm not sure if that's consistant in other States, but here in Washington it's true. Or what if someone working for me has a vehicle in poor repair, their brakes fail as they are traveling from one jobsite to another? I wonder how exposed I am in that case?
Jim, you can get a 'non-owned auto' rider on your policy. It's essential if you have any employees. If they are driving their vehicle in the course of working for you then you can be at risk if anything happens. They do not have to be moving lumber for you or anything else. As far as I understand, commuting to and from the job is excluded but going from one job to another is a company function.
A place that I worked in CA had everyone turn in copies of their auto insurance policies, just to make sure that the company wasn't absorbing all of the risk by having someone uninsured driving around on the clock.
I still need to get down there for those clamps and beers.
the lease trucks that we have (personal truck lease to company) have a one million dollar rider on them. It cost about $80 extra a month and only good during work conditions. company out of loop.
"A place that I worked in CA had everyone turn in copies of their auto insurance policies, just to make sure that the company wasn't absorbing all of the risk by having someone uninsured driving around on the clock."
Now THAT'S something we caould all easilly implement. Great idea, thanks.
"I still need to get down there for those clamps and beers."
Kathy is going up to the San Juan's on business in early September (I think). I love it up there and last year we stayed the night as a part of a similar trip for her. Maybe you we could bring the clamps then and you and I could figure out a way to hook up.
In the meantime, those clamps are not in the way. Just let me know if you change your mind and I'll let the next guy on the list have them. Tipi, Tipi, Tipi!
http://www.asmallwoodworkingcompany.com
I don't know what really happens if an employee gets in an accident while on the clock. Is their car insurance in first position? Or, does your policy get hit first? I try to minimize driving during the work day by anyone that works for me, mostly because it's hard to bill for it, but it does happen. I think I'm gonna talk to my agent tomorrow about this, so I'll report back.
years ago, we all had company trucks at the office. It was a way to help with the low pay. But then people started moving farther from the office. driving everywhere. Then they started going to bars and the beach , vacation with the vehicle. started filling up personal cars with gas card. Then we started getting DUI and accidents. Total trucks.Finally company got balls. You either drive to office and pick up truck (which is what I do) or company will lease your truck. If you provide truck, must be brand new, no miles, white, and basically plain, not no king ranch. they pay $385 month, $100 insurance , 14 cent mile. You buy gas. at 100,000 miles lease is over, you must replace. Engineer get a little more money.Its design to break even. and since you got to log in every morning on the time clock at the office. I myself dont think its a good deal.
That amounts to abuse by employees that are not good employees. And; lack of enforced company policy/rules.
Second part ain't too bad till you got to 14cents a mile and clock at the office.[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
That's a really shiddy attitude Blue, and exactly why we are where we are and having this discussion.
All due respect to you though...........
The whole machismo thing can go to bed now. We are proffesionals and deserve to be treated and compensated as such.
[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
That's a really shiddy attitude Blue, and exactly why we are where we are and having this discussion.
It's not why we are here today. It's an honest observation of the situation.
The why is complicated, but maybe not as complicated as one might think. The carpenter trade is too easily obtained. There are no restrictions on entry into the trade and the tooling is minimal. I could frame a house with two power saws, a sledge, a level, chalkline and hammer. A handsaw or chisel would be good enough for me to replace an expensive sawzall.
All totaled, I'd probably need about $500 to gear myself and a rookie up for a frame job. The only trade cheaper than that is drywall. Roofers are in the same boat.
When you look at the ease of getting into business it's easy to understand why the trade lacks respect and lacks the financial respect that you desire.
Don't kid yourself. We are in an upward cycle right now and I'm totally serious, the payscales will be declining significantly in the carpentry trade. The illegals haven't fully penetrated it yet and the autoworkers are just now gearing up, flush with their 95% sub pay. They can afford to work for $8.00 per hour just to have something to do during the week!
When I started as a foreman, I was always given a company truck and gas. Those days started disappearing in the late 70's.
blue
Blue, the ease of entry to the trade is the key reason why carpenters are paid less. Add to that the lack of requirements for qualifications. In BC, plumbers and electricians are registered and must sign off on permits for all work performed. As a result, they carry insurance, as well as more respect and a higher per hour fee. But carpenters, who completely control a building's structural integrity, are not required to have any formal training at all, let alone qualifications. General contractors, who are mostly carpenters themselves, contribute to the problem by paying a ticketed journeyman the same as a 'job-trained' guy. This trade is its own worst enemy.Lignum est bonum.
I agree about the lack of any real qualifications and the ability to find cheap help in the building trade.
My father was a well driller and that's the one thing that I really picked up on working with him growing up.. they all stuck together and didn't drive down prices. No matter if you liked the competition or not they all acknowledged the fact that each company had a lot invested in tools and equipment (including work vehicles) and all had roughly the same rates... enough to clear the overhead and profit margins.
It amazes me that there are so many ignorant people out there willing to work for practically nothing while taking on huge liabilities.. lack of education until they are broke.
Using your own vehicle to tote company tools and materials can have major ramifications for insurance and workers comp if there is an accident.
In my area, the employers insurance is responsible if the employeee is in an accident while transporting the employers stuff.
just think how often we read on this site comeone complaining about what may or may not be a high bid price ...
then dozens of yahoo's jump on board and brag about how they'd be able to do it much cheaper!
"hell yeah, that guy is trying to rob you ... No way it should cost $XYZ ..."
Idiots.
so what if what ever bid in question "seems" high to an outsider reading about it over the internet ... maybe ... just maybe ... the guy who wrote the bid knows how to actually turn a buck in this business?
Me ... I look at it this way ... my prices ... high or not ... That's the bottom line dollar amount it takes me to wake up, get outta bed, shower and drive over to do the job.
It's not high ... it's not low ... it's my freaking price.
anyone else wanna go be a hero and go do it for less ... More power to ya buddy ... just don't ask me to loan U a few bucks at the end of the month to help pay the bills!
If I wanna ahcrge $500/sq for roofing when "the going rate" is $150 ... it's not "too high" ... it's just the amount of dollar bills that'll get me outta my bed and on their roof.
"We" ... are our worst enemy.
Anyone that charges more then the next guy is suddenly a crook. If carp's stuck together like U mentioned the drillers do/did . ... we'd all be better off.
But No ...
"that guy's a crook..."
Idiots!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Both of you guys are 100% correct!! Finally some people who see the world in a professional manner!
I can remember going to jobs as a kid with the old man and having someone tell him "so and so will do it for this much".. he'd just laugh and tell them to let them have at it... We'd go back to the truck and he'd tell me "Lincoln freed the slaves".. I still like that saying.
I have to agree with you Jeff... money motivates me as well.. but not just the money.. I like to make things perfect and I won't compete with some hack that charges half as much.. it's my reputation and name on the line. I'd rather not do the job than have them tell everyone they meet that I did a half a__ed job.. because when they do they never tell the other half of the story about how they nickle and dimed the price - all everyone hears is how this guy didn't do the job correctly. There's a guy in my area that does roofing for about half as much as anybody else.. but I also see his crews out fixing leaky roofs all the time because he has inexperienced help that works for beer money and they cut corners everywhere.. it always amazes me that a guy like that can still find work... but I guess that he's filling a niche in the marketplace =)
".......I could frame a house with two power saws, a sledge, a level, chalkline and hammer. A handsaw or chisel would be good enough for me to replace an expensive sawzall.
All totaled, I'd probably need about $500 to gear myself and a rookie up for a frame job. The only trade cheaper than that is drywall. Roofers are in the same boat........."
What about painters?? A couple of different brushes and some buckets. Maybe a $100. Or electricians. A volt meter, wire cutter, and a couple wrenches. Again around $100. And plumbers??? A hacksaw, propane torch, and a few wrenches. Maybe $200. What Im getting at is I think that carpentry is the most tool intensive/ expensive trade there is ( excludeing heavy equipement operations). But, I dont really know.Live by the sword, die by the sword....choose your sword wisely.
painters are in the same boat but plumbers and electricians are not. You need licenses for those trades.
blue
Yeah, plumbers need a chainsaw too. Don't forget that.Tipi, Tipi, Tipi!
http://www.asmallwoodworkingcompany.com
Well I let it go once ,...
Im not sure what Blue was trying to say with those figgures. From them its assumed that 500 is all a drywall.......[doesnt say]
Not a brush for a painter?
This is not realistic. Actually to make a living a drywaller/taper , painter has much more in tools not counting big equipment . A skytrack does cost more than a lift . But other than that h^ll no.
http://www.tapetech.com
http://www.all-wall.com/acatalog/Tape_On_CB_Tools.php
I paid more for two walk ups than Blues budget and Ive got 5 of them.
One thing on the painters side other than different types of spray rigs are ladder inventory. Of course if I add that then they will probably be bunched with skytracks . Even then a texture machine trailer is around 20 grand. I dont have one but I do have a texture pump. What Im saying is that those three trades easily out match the framer in equipment just to be able to make a living .
If we break it down to minimal tools like I think Blue was trying to do, a framer is the cheapest which I think that was his real point . With a nail bag full , a worm drive and a 100 foot cord he could make wages framing small houses with out a lift.
A drywall hanger with a nail bag full and two walk ups could make wages on the same.
However a painter couldnt with a brush and roller and a taper couldnt with a drill and a pan full of knifes. Not wages.
It matters not but before its out of hand ,
Tim
I think this all being way over simplified. I could frame a house with a rock and a handsaw too..... but I wouldn't make any money doing it and nobody would ever give me another shot at the next one either. Let's not all get carried away here.View Image
exactly
Well...........they might give you another house to frame. Just depends on how tight fitting that lion cloth you'd be wearing is :).
In another thread ( to try and quite hi-jacking this one), it would be interesting to compare prices for the different trades of a bare-minimum and completely tooled setup.
Live by the sword, die by the sword....choose your sword wisely.
Diesel, now you've went too far.
A rock is not the same thing as a Rocket and I've never claimed that anyone could run their business with a handsaw.
I have seen literally hundreds of framing contractors that don't own any equipment. I've seen them make their ladders. I still know of several contractors that hand pound everything. We actually use one oldtimer for fillin work that has only two employees; his son and a helper. They don't have a compressor or nailguns. They don't have any walljacks. I'd say the guy isn't doing too well, but he's taken his family to a vacation in Hawaii every year for the last 15 years! The last time I talked with him, he was getting ready to frame a big one in Gross Pointe. I don't remember, but I know it was more than 4000 sf of custom home.
I myself operated for more than ten years without a compressor or a generator. The bigget investment of equipment that I had was a 32' ladder that I needed twice a year. For the most part, I used a 20' wood ladder (still my ladder of choice) and a 4' step ladder (optional).
I know of one oldtimer that has framed Pulte houses ALONE for decades. The last I heard or spoke of him was three years ago, so maybe they've dumped him, but he didn't have any equipment either. No equipment, no employees.
I know for a fact that I could enter the carpentry framing business with under $1000. That would be $500 for a wc policy, a couple hundred for liability and a saw and cord. If I didn't have the money for insurance, I could find GC's that would withhold the amounts for me. I know a guy that would hire me tomorrow on that deal.
blue
blue
Interresting post .
What is "Pulte houses" ?
What ten years are you talking about ? LOL.
I used to work from a mud pan , a 6 , 8, 10, @ 12. I ran butt joints with a 8 curved trowel. I first started on a wood bench with a handle hole in the top middle . Remember those ? I had a potato masher to mix mud and I troweled texture with a 8, 10, 12, 14 @ 18 , with a wood hawk to start with and advanced to one of those aluminum jobs. I didnt have a darby for several years and the first time I seen one I thought it was a short straight edge.
Up the time to 1975 I was running a power drill and bit and a Craftsman compressor to blow texture from a hopper . I had added a set of stationary peg feet stilts that dont bend . Still hanging from wood benches although I had made adjustable legs . Some short time after that I was at a truck stop and a guy sold every thing on his truck to me to get home . I had purchsed three walk ups for 50 dollars and some other things such as a 20 foot walk board which I still use today. Adjustbale stilts , a banjo , some knifes and trowels , and some ladders for the all cost of 250.00.
With that equipment up grade I could turn and burn out 10 dollars per hour at top speed for 10 hrs. 100 dollar days baby! I would set on a flight of porch steps at home and remove my boots and pants and found it hard to stand again.
Edit ; Im not good on memory. But when I started the prices were .02 per ft to hang and .03 to finish.
Tim
Edited 7/15/2006 2:17 pm by Mooney
Sounds great Blue. So what's stopping you?
Why is it that you love to sh1t all over the profession that has put food on your table for so long? And how come you're always complaining about how hard it is to make a living framing houses these days(which I agree with)..... yet now you're trying to tell me that I can make a living and go to Hawaii every year with just $1000 in start up money?
Look I get your point..... but it ain't that simple. I'm young enough Blue, but I wasn't born yesterday either. The crew I started on was between 8 and 10 guys and there were two framing nailers. I know all about swatting nails, site built ladders and staging, plumb bobs, and pushing monster gables up with sticks and sweat. But the times are a changing Blue. I don't drag around a trailer full of tools and equipment because I think it makes me look cool. I do it because those tools and equipment are what it takes to be competitive and COMPLIANT in today's framing market. The days of a pick up truck with nothing but your nail bags and a saw on a 100' cord in the back are LONG gone brother.
No need to get huffy. All I said was your were over simplifying the situation. And I still believe you are.View Image
Sounds great Blue. So what's stopping you?
Stopping me from what?
Why is it that you love to sh1t all over the profession that has put food on your table for so long? And how come you're always complaining about how hard it is to make a living framing houses these days(which I agree with)..... yet now you're trying to tell me that I can make a living and go to Hawaii every year with just $1000 in start up money?
Why does making observations about the trade equate to me "sh1tting all over the profession"? I'm just telling you like it is around here. It may not work for you, but it certainly works for most of the guys around here. And that's why it makes it so hard for guys like me to make a living...there are too many crews out there that will be happy making $18.00 per hour of wages and break even on the overhead. Their wives are working and supplying health coverage, if they have any at all.
And please don't ask me to explain how old John can fly his family out to Hawaii every year. Frank and I have scratched our heads a hundred times trying to figure all this out. We scratch our heads all the time wondering how most of these crews survive.
Perhaps our market is different, but if my camera was working, I'd start taking pics of every crew in our area that has framers on a jobsite with no equipment. Taunton would send me an email asking me to slow down on the picture posting.
blue
No need to get huffy. All I said was your were over simplifying the situation. And I still believe you are.
I wasn't getting huffy in any sense of the word, but it sure seems like you are. And I don't believe I'm oversimplifying it at all. The point is that ANYONE can gear up with little more than a weeks salary and no licensing is needed. That pretty much qualifies every foreman in the county. I was one of those back in the early 80's, so I know how much it takes....almost nothing. It really hasn't changed that much.
blue
jim..i sure hope you're going to show up at TipiFest. It would be great seeing you again..
hey , Eric...
pretty innocent thread has turned into a great philospohical review ow the business of building ...
i go up and down on the issue of Company vehicles....
one of the olde saws is " you have to spend money to make money"
i started on my own after going partners with a guy .. it didn't work out
i drove a new '73.. and kept it until i bought an'80 Supercab and converted it to propane right off the dealer's floor
i had some great guys in the early '80's and the economy was booming
i put two of them in company vehicles so we actually had a 3-truck fleet... but time and the economy put an end to that by '87
a couple years ago one of my guys was having trouble getting to work with his old vehicle.. so i bought a new one and put him in my old one...
recently the old one started becomming unreliable.. so i bought a new one and moved him up to the '93... he's happy, i'm happy... the truck is in lieu of a pay raise.. so that accounts for some of the increased overhead
the more successful contractors around here have company vehicles,
they get higher prices for their work.. and they can absorb the added overhead... if your company decides to structure themselves that way, then you will be driving a company vehicle..
but if the economy turns to crap again ( or WHEN the economy turns to crap again )... everyone is going to be scrambling to reduce overhead and fixed costs.. i see another big wave of employees disguised as "independent contractors".. and the company benefits are going to take another long leap backwardsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I got insulted today,I know that I,m not on the same
level as carp. but I seem to own more tools than most
of the ones that I am presantly working with, I know that
most woodpeckers have a curious distane for us muddobbers,
and I take that into account, but when they ask me to bring
my block saw to work, load and haul the heavy bastid ,then have
to operate the durn thing for them,then the G.C. asks me to
park my ole,trusty rusty f350 in the back, with MY saw still on it,
so they can maintain their false sence of profeshtionalism,
yep --I just stood there----Kiss my big fat white azzzzz----yes i feel
like a whore --a overage, fat with strechmarks ,but experianced,
one goldtoothed whore, that is, cuz you know what? they need me.
yes i left ole trusty rusty sitting there, in her , magneficint rusting glory,
locked up my tools cept the ones I needed, then went back to work
framing in a artifical fireplace, so I can start to rocking it in a few days,
hellfire if they wernt so durn cheap ,they would have gotten me
to build'im a proper chimney and fireplace out of stone.
Eric,
Last place I worked didn't pay anything, and I provided truck, hand tools, and hand power tools. However it was rare that I needed to haul anything or make lumberyard trips. Company ran the jobs quite efficiently. Mostly my driving was to different sites.
Second to last company I was paid mileage if I left the site for anything. (which was quite often, due to disorganization) I provided hand tools and hand power tools. But I also had permission to use the company shop (2 car garage) nights and weekends.
As far as the insurance question, I have a special rider for "non-owned hired auto". Say a sub is on his way to my job and has an accident, and is underinsured. Things like that are supposed to be covered.
Bowz
PS I can only think of 3 places that do residential remodeling in the area that provide trucks and tools. Only one has trucks that match. And they are also the three most expensive places I can think of.
Quality Assurance Inspector
New Ford, extra cab, long bed, (lol for what?)
Front cab is office, laptop, cordless printer...
Company recently took all the trucks away from the superintendents and gave them to the newly developed quality assurance team, due to the fact that that the QA team has more travel than the supers, who just go to the jobsite everyday.
(we do pull the boat with it, lol, very hard for me to park!)
Eric
I ran four framing crews and supplied all four with trucks, maintenance and fuel. I found that if it wasn't their own, they didn't treat it well. Problems I encountered;
1.High maintenance costs
2.Paid for gas for there personal vehicles
3.Use of vehicle and tools to do side jobs with crew
4.Worried when they drove after a few beers
5.Advertising when they parked in front of strip joints
I made a good money with these guys, but the potential liability and the theft of gas every week, just turned me sour. I probably was my own worst enemy. I enjoyed working hard ,sweating, and producing framed projects. Nothing I liked to do more than sit down after work, and drink 5 cases a beer with 25 of my guys.I loved the camaraderie of those years.
Greg in Connecticut
Eric - good thread!
Years ago I had my own new work truck, packed with tools, and a lumber rack. I was making $16 or $17 an hour, and working side jobs on evenings and weekends just to pay for the vehicle/tools. I didn't feel I was making enough. I asked an elec. I knew what a journeyman elec. with worktruck and his own tools would make...he thought for a second and said there is no such animal in his trade.
I have to agree with much of what blue has written - because I live and work and used to run a framing crew in a depressed area, and that is the way it is. Times are better here now, but a lot of guys are still willing to give it away. Like Jeff said - people in this trade take pride in being able to undercut the next guy.
I've been told, both by local people, and people on this board, that I charge too much. If I bid a job, I want to make $50 to $150 an hour, depending on a lot of different variables. I don't do T&M anymore, for the most part, but I still do for one longtime client at $40/hr. He has a ton of work for me, and I put him off until I have nothing else going on, because frankly, its not enough money.
I have a general contractor friend who drives an almost brand-new Dodge with utility bed and lumber rack. He paid for it with a real estate liquidation. He didn't pay for it with money from his contracting business, because he doesn't make enough. He still charges $25/hr. and feels guilty for that. I paid him $30/hr. to help me for a few weeks, he knows I'm making more than that for my time, and marking his up too, and he's sure I'm going to get canned any minute for being too expensive. Its just a mindset he can't seem to get over. Even if I got canned from that job tomorrow, I wouldn't regret making a few bucks for awhile!
Another guy who used to use me on certain jobs stopped calling when I billed him $200 for a 4-hr. drywall repair on a commercial space, night hours. He lets his wife's paycheck and bennies carry the bulk of his load, and has the idea that its better to be cheap and stay busy. I think he's nuts, and he thinks I am. I used to think like that, 'tho. To be honest, BreakTime is what learned me better. Guys like Blue and Buck and Jerrald and Sonny. I'm 51, and still learning, believe me.
One guy I used to do a lot of work for told me I should raise my rates. I was charging $25/hr. I raised my rates, and now he never calls me anymore.
One of the biggest framing contractors in town is a guy I used to work for, and have known for years. He has an office and a shop and a full-time secretary, estimators, fleet of company trucks, the whole nine yards. Does nothing but commercial projects, a lot of schools and public works projects. Making good money now.
But he told me that for twenty years he lived off his wife's paycheck. I mean he had the office and all that stuff even then. He got choked up when he told me, because he said it hurt his masculinity to admit that he couldn't support his family, his wife had to support him. I knew him well enough to know that he didn't have a great marriage, seldom went home before 7, smoked too much, drank too much, and appeared more married to his business than his family. Point being, thats what it took to do what he did. Why most guys didn't have the office/secretary/fleet of vehicles.
No real point to all of this, but just ranting and rambling. Thanks again for opening this discussion.
"he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
No real point to all of this, but just ranting and rambling. Thanks again for opening this discussion.
There was no point to my obervations either. It was just my observation of what I've seen in 30 years out in the field.
The guys that are surviving in the framing business are doing it on the backs of their own labor. There are several framing crews in our area operating on volume and running multiple crews, but they are rare. I can only think of two at this point and they are hurting from all the overhead that they have created for themselves.
If you read the book The Cashflow Quadrant, Robert Kyosaki points out that the more successful a tradesman is, the busier he gets and he actually becomes a slave to his business. I'd experienced that myself in my younger years and it was a major source of frustration to me. INstead of enjoying the fruits of my efforts, the efforts resulted in more work for me...longer weeks, more days and less time freedom. When I decided that I was going to have more time freedom, my income suffered.
I will admit that I am probably the worst business man in the industry, and that's okay with me. There will always be some that will be able to do better in my industry, but I don't like the chances. Our industry is bespeckled with great tradesmen that are terrible businessmen and unfortunatly, sometimes our competition dictates the sucess that we will share if we are working in the same arena. Right now, those larger framing firms are setting a lowball price of $5.25 per foot for houses. They dont' care what the house consists of...they'll do it for that price. It's ridiculous because some of the stuff that they are doing, I've done for up to $9.00 per foot.
If I want to continue in the business, in that geographic region, I have to meet those prices. We just met those prices and did two for those numbers. We cut 20% off the top for us and payed the rest out in subcontract wages. We basically have become a sweatshop operator, which is very disturbing to me, considering how much I've cared and tried to do the right thing for my employees over the years.
Framing isn't a business that I would consider entering into at this stage of my career. I love the trade of carpentry, but the business sucks, unless you love living on poverty wages and stealing as a way of life.
blue
$5.25 a foot is a low price in your area. I priced two guys on my personal house I finished in April 1 was 4.75 a foot the other was 3.25 a foot. neither price was bad, but then I talked to a guy my uncle uses and I had seen his work before. I really wanted to use him and decided I would unless he ws outrageous and he quoted me $3.75 a foot to frame. Keep in mind all sitck built hip roof with no trusses.I didn't know how he was making anything but he had all his insurance in order and also did a wonderful job on the house. But I agree if you do a good job on anything make sure you charge enough money to enjoy yourself.as the saying goes "if I'm going to be broke, I aint going to be tired"
I didnt really want to say it but its worse than that here .
Or cheaper . I guess it depends which side of the football you are on when its snapped.
Tim
What are rates down there like? I don't think I can keep my head above water for less than $7- $8 foot on the most basics of frames. There's guys around here who will frame anything and everything for $7.50 a foot without ever seeing the plans... I don't know how they do it. $3 and $4? I'll stay in bed. I could make better money doing the Handyman routine around here than that. And I just might.View Image
Sometimes I wonder if a simple frame here is the same with you guys. These guys dont use lifts at all.
Starter home 11 to 1200 sg ft , trusses 5/12 , no dormers , should come in around 3 to 3.50 per ft. 8 ft walls , simple simple , on slab.
Tim
I'd give something like that a shot at those prices Tim. Nobody can afford to build something like that around here because the land is just too expensive... if you build a little house you don't make any money on it's sale.
Simple here would be about a 2000sqft colonial... two floors, 10 pitch w/ walk up attic, full basement (maybe walkout w/ knee walls depending on lot), attached two car garage (not included in sq ft number above), and trim would just be prep for vinyl job.
View Image
I knew there was a lot of difference .
This is just one of my rentals but this is what I build. Its a classic first time home buyers/ rental. I can go either way with it . I could sell sell these right and left as this type of house is the number one sought after home and the MLS system is completely out of them. They go quick.
On the other hand they suffer what you say. I have to steal the land somehow and thats the key to it . Ican spend up to 8 thousand for land.
I don't think I can keep my head above water for less than $7- $8 foot on the most basics of frames
Around these parts (Eastern P.A.) guys would kill each other for a shot at $5.25 a sqft.
Right now, a building lot would set me back $80-120K for an acre or less. my wife and I just looked at a 2400Sqft house for $400K.
Not quite Boston, but on the way up.
i just had a friend call em all excited because he was going to get $3.75 for a two story on a basement with a stick framed roof. His Carpenter gets about $18.50 and his helpers about $12.00. He has a lift and figures that he'll need about 6-8 days for this 2300 sqft.
Eric,
Been watching this but haven't had time to post.
When I first got married my wife was unable to grasp the concept of me using my own truck and all my own tools as an employee.
My Looser-in-law is an electrician and he has never provided more than hand tools and a cordless drill. He even bitches if he has to drive from one job to another in his own truck in the middle of the day.
I think we do it to ourselves. Carpenters as a whole I think have some romantic picture of themselves and as such never really take an objective look at their situation.
How many guys do you know who " Used to work Construction" or where " Carpenters over the summer in college"
We have no system of certification. No way to prove our worth. And, all too many people on both sides of the fence take advantage of that.
For example: I was once called out here when I said I couldn't believe my father was having such a hard time finding a framer who could or would frame a bastard hip roof. A task I find challenging, but also one I think you are obligated to be able complete if in fact you wish to call yourself a framer.
Funny thing about that? My dad is the kind of guy who would work himself into the grave and give every penny to his family. Never once asking for a penny. He is at this point in his life heavily involved in Estimating and Project management. When my sister was in college things were slow, bonuses where scarce and he took a job at Home Depot in the evenings to help make up for the bonuses and pay the tuition.
Every evening for a week a guy would come in and ask questions about roofs. He told my dad he was building his own addition. He was a young guy and he seemed interested in the Framing Square and all it's secret powers. So, dad took the time to walk him step by step through building a hip roof.
About a week later, someone clued dad into the fact that he was a local contractor and he was building an addition for a client. Not a homeowner building his own addition. I don't think dad cared because the guy really wanted to learn about the square. Just shows how little of a test there is to enter into this business.
On the other hand. Plumbers and Electricians have to prove they know what they are doing. While that ease of getting in to the bussiness means you can live the American dream and be your own boss. It also means you are sharing that dream with a big bunch of clowns with $300 worth of Buck Brothers tools and an old station wagon.
I love my tools. I love the work. I love that feeling at the end of the day when you climb in the truck and look at the roof you framed and know you've done something.
I also like the feeling of having my bills paid and my kids fed and clothed. Wish it wasn't so. It just is.
Carpenters as a group have no barganing power. And, what little they do have? They give away by cutting each others throat.
I don't think dad cared because the guy really wanted to learn about the square.
Robert,
There is the romantisism you refer to.........I have'nt had the time I wished I did to respond more to this thread plus it got hijacked along the way. Thanks for the thoughts, I appreciate that.
I read your last post to What did I miss or whatever it was titled. i haven't had the time to respond.
I'm cooked. I'm off for a week to go ride my bike with DW; 500 miles over 7 days. Hopefully I'll come back new.
Are you going to TIPIFEST? Have you been up to your sisters place yet? I'd love to hook up with you sometime.
Eric[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
TipiFest looks bad. Work is insane right now.
Been tryin to get up to my sisters but this weekend, when I do have the time, she's at the shore. Maybe in a few weeks. I'll let you know.
I also like the feeling of having my bills paid and my kids fed and clothed. Wish it wasn't so. It just is.
Carpenters as a group have no barganing power. And, what little they do have? They give away by cutting each others throat.
Those two statements about sum up the trade.
blue
The same can be said of other trades. As long as someone is willing to do it for cost plus 2%, things will not improve.
I agree.. but that's why you have to sell the value of the whole experience. You have to go above and beyond what other companies are willing to do, sell your "brand", and make evry job a positive experience for the customer if you want to command a higher price than the ones who are willing to work for peanuts. There are guys around here who make twice as much as the rest of the crowd because people want them and their company to do the work no matter what the cost is... because they have marketed themselves into that position and they offer a higher level of quality. I just finished a job for a guy who owns several companies himself and he commented that I cost a lot but the quality of the job is what he is looking for (and gets) every time that we work for him. It's nice to know that there are customers out there who seek that level of service and quality... I try to keep this in mind as well when I buy things from my suppliers and when hiring things to be done myself. I can always find something cheaper somewhere else but the level of service is what sets some companies apart.
I agree with you 100 % but I also realize that if the contractor supplied the wheels then his/her overhead would be out of sight and the business would be unable to compete. It's a significant problem and it all goes back to the fact that, the customer isn't willing to foot the bill.
If you're a homeowner and you don't have the tools needed to do a job, you rent one. Last time I checked, the very simplest tool at a rental yard goes for $25 a day plus a refundable deposit. That's just one tool! Now you take a carpenter responding to newspaper add, not only does he have to have his own truck but also a couple thousand dollars in his own tools and, he's got to come to the job with skills to use those tools properly. And for all that; his tools, his skill and his own transportation, he gets an hourly wage that wouldn't allow him to rent a top of the line demolition hammer for the same eight hour day.
Doesn't sound fair to me but then I don't have an answer to it either...become a plumber or electrician?
Part of the problem is that carpenters, in my area at least, have been known as druggies for so long that they usually don't get any respect, in wages or for intelligence. We had a job site Foreman on one of our contract remodels who had been a carpenter all his life and he was great, I know because he was my boss for two years. Could do any job asked plus a few that others couldn't BUT, he had a chronic alcohol and drug problem. He would hide bottles in the weirdest places all over the framing so that he could get a few sips during the day and not be caught. He always got caught though and customers always complained about his odor (smelled like alcohol all the time).
He had had a few run ins with local police too. If they saw him driving anything he got pulled over and given every test known to man. He even assaulted a few officers and it wasn't uncommon for him to come to work with bruises and lumps where the police baton made contact with his face the past weekend etc. etc. etc. MORE THAN ONCE TOO!!! The last year he was with the company, before he finally got fired, he had a friend bring his tool box to the job site and he rode a bicycle to work . Daily, rain or shine!! I didn't see him for about four months after the boss let him go. Funny thing, they had a news program on the local TV channel about jail inmates making toys for local kids at Christmas time. Guess who was being interviewed from the BIG HOUSE, there he was...happy as a clam in deep mud, big smile with his one missing front tooth, sitting there with a wood rasp putting the finishing touches on one of the children's toys. Now, if your contractor and company owner, how the hell can you even think of letting him drive one of your vehicles?
One other point that sort of popped up in my mind; those same contractors should be more than careful regarding letting illegal employees drive company vehicles too. In our state, they can't get drivers licenses legally but most drive with false ID and licenses. If an illegal employee gets into an accident with the company trash truck or van, then the contractor is in serious trouble with insurance and liability coverage. Something to do with allowing unlicensed driver use of company vehicles ...you get the picture.
Just some thoughts on the subject for what it's worth.
agree with you 100 % but I also realize that if the contractor supplied the wheels then his/her overhead would be out of sight and the business would be unable to compete.
We are already unable to compete and we don't supply ANYTHING anymore.
Frank and I were talking and we've decided that we have to get rid of our last employees and work strictly with subcontractors that will supply us with certs.
blue
jim... i think that's the nature of new construction...
at least that's the conclusion i arrived at about 1990.. that i could no longer compete in new construction
so i stopped trying.. but we can compete in the retail market ( new construction being the "wholesale market" ) and we can get our price
and i think ( !!! ) we can carry the overhead that we need to service our customers
that's what they're looking for.. service..
the only way you can deliver service is with the right employees.. and the right employees want a living wage and benefits
it ain't easy.. but it is how i try to do itMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'm not so sure Mike.
We are heading full steam into retail (50/50 now) but I still don't see a reason to have employees.
blue