Hello Everyone,
Been a while since I’ve posted anything, but here’s an area any and ALL experience would be helpful on.
Porch Decking is rotted out, home is about 100 years old in Philadelphia. HO wants it replaced with a composite. I suggest Tandora (sp?) I didn’t do much research, but you don’t have to go far before you know that Tandora is not the best, but it’s a composite. HO is not satisfied with Tandora, he wants a material which is either recycled or sustainable (Philipine Mahogany is out), does not need come with required maintence (Spanish Cedar is out), will last for as long as he does (he’s young and healthy), and looks very good. I have not suggested concrete, I don’t think he would go for that.
HO goes online and finds a synthetic (not composite) product, 100% post-industrial recycled, lifespan of about 400 years (yes, I’m also sceptical, who’d even WANT something synthetic to last this long?), solid, strong (though we would have to run extra joists). It’s a 3/4″ solid HDPE (high density poly-ethelyne) plastic, tongue and groove, six inch face, and not teribly ugly (doesn’t pretend that it’s wood).
PROBLEM: it is not watertight. This is important, because the porch is over the front of the basement. Besides, you don’t want the installation of a 400-year deck to halve the lives of the joists holding it. We thought about running a bead of silicone in the groove and then smashing them together. The silicone would not last foreever, but it would clog the groove, and might do a lot og good. We tried this on a sample, and once you put he silicone on, you can’t get it together. SO, are there any products out there which we could use to deck this porch, which meet all of out criteria. I almost feel that the HO should just accept that the porch will be wood, and you’ll have to keep it up and replace it every 20 years or so. Philly gets some nasty weather, and all different kinds.
OK, there’s the problem, by all means, let it rip…… Grace and Peace – Hans
Life is too short to learn from your own mistakes.
Replies
When you find it, I want some too - maybe...
OK, I have to admit that I don't have any kind of expertise that will likely be of value here, but I am just curious about the water-tight requirement. As a California native, I have virtually no experience with covered porches, but it would seem to me that the water barrier needs to be in the roof (just how much lemonade is he planning on spilling on that porch.) This would seem to be supported by the warning from Tendura that their product is only to be used in covered applications. I'm not sure how any wood (which would need to be allowed to move around) would be more watertight than a synthetic material with a tongue and groove joint?
Please excuse me if I am missing something obvious.
Thanks,
Jeremy in San Diego (where the dirt costs $1,000/square ft., but no one bothers to build basements.)
5 words: Wind driven rain and snow.
In the first place, I wouldn't rely on the porch decking to waterproof any areas underneath. That should be taken care of separately,, and independently from whatever you use on the porch floor.
Second, I've used Tendura and have been happy with it. Its pretty pricey, but the porches (2 of them) both look great after several years, without any gapping between the boards. The only problem with Tendura is that it's not really designed to be used on an open deck, where it will get prolonged, direct exposure to the sun. But if you're using it on a porch with a roof, it should be fine.
What was the name of the product the HO found?
BTW, I live and work in central NJ, so I've got pretty much the same weather problems.
I'm not sure if this is helpful, but since you wanted ALL suggestions - here's one related to the decking part of your post.
A few years ago I had a octagon shaped deck built around a hot tub. The hot tub is about 4 feet high and 5 feet in diameter. The deck is about flush with the top of the hot tub and is 12 feet in diameter. I wanted a deck material that was sustainable, low maintenance and long-lasting. Beautiful would be good too.
I decided on ipe wood, and I've been happy so far. The hot tub is in northern Minnesota, so it is exposed to sun, snow, ice and hot water (simultaneously in the winter) Ipe is extremely dense and heavy and hard to work. EB-TYs were used for fastening. It took a long time, but looks great without any nailheads popping up. I liked the initial red brown color so I applied a coat of Penefin.
http://www.woodsthebest.com/ipe_decking/ipe.htm
http://ipe-wood.com/faq.html
http://www.livingthecountrylife.com/articles/02summer02/lifetime_deck.html
Hope that helps!
Michaelene
Alright, let me address a few of these suggestions, and I appreciate all of the input so far, I need a lot more.First, the HO requires that the decking be:
1.) Either recycled or sustainably harvested
2.) No-VeryLow Maintenance
3.) Will not need to be replaced for a very long time
4.) Will shed water off the porchTo Kate, if I find something outside of this form, I'll post to you.To Germey, I'm my neighborhood in Philly, there are a good many porches over the front of the basements. Many of them leak, I've paid a few bills because they do. But it really is surprising how much they will shed water if built well. I think the reason that wood decking (Spanish Cedar, Philippine Mahogany) is able to shed water is that the moisture swells the wood, and the tongues and grooved are sealed, so the water rolls off the surface. I think. It might just be the paint, but they work too well for it to be only paint. I think. It must be noted that there ARE roofs over these porches, but the roof on this one (and quite a few) is about 10' high, over a deck that is 8' long (& 16' long, but that is irrelevant to the weather hitting it), facing southwest, but with some nasty crosswinds from around the side. Anyway, the wood decks, well painted and installed, shed water for years if they are maintained. When the distributor was asked if the HDPE would shed water, he answered without hesitation 'No,' which is beautifully honest when he knows the answer probably rules out his product. HDPE doesn't hold paint (or anything), and I don't think it would expand the some way wood does. Any expertise would be helpful.To Shep, what is the easiest way you've found to shed water from underneath a deck? Here's some more freakin complications. The joists are pocketed into the masonry on the sides, and the HO's porch joins the porch of the attached house, same finished floor height, and the neighbor is not replacing his deck. Both decks together run the 32' in front of the house, and the dividing line is a beam which holds the joist in the middle. As far as I can figure, I can only go up 3/4", I can't have my HO's porch higher than his neighbors. Is there a way to waterproof and THEN deck in 3/4"? The word for Tendura is well received, anyone else's experience with it would be appreciated also. I've seen Tendura decks where the material sags between joists, about 16" of empty air. We were going to put joists in between the existing.Here's the website for the HO's product
http://www.plasticlumberyard.com/ , it's called "ForeverDeck"Finally, Michaelene, I've worked with Ipe before, it's beautiful stuff, tough on nails, hard, lovely lumber. I din't think I could get some sustainably harvested Ipe, but the second link you sent claims that it is Sustainable. This is one of the HO's requirements. I will pass this by him. I'll have to add the milling of tongues and grooves to the price of the wood, but I don't know if it would shed the water.This is way too long, but I am tired and not thinking succinctly. I'm getting married in eight days, and I spend the remainder of my single life talking about...composites?
Grace and Peace - HansLife is too short to learn from your own mistakes.Edited 10/8/2005 12:21 am ET by HansRauch
Edited 10/8/2005 12:27 am ET by HansRauch
First, congrats on your upcoming nuptials. I hope you'll have a long and happy marriage.
second, thamks for the link. I'll be looking at that.
As far as the deck goes- could you install a layer of 1/2" or 5/8" ply over the joists, then Ice and Water Shield, then the decking? Maybe add some firring strips so the decking has some breathing room underneath. I know you said you don't want the height to change much, but I can't think of anything else.
I'm not sure how this would work- just throwing out some ideas. I've never run into having to worry about worrying about how to shed water from under a deck.
Another thought (and more work)- could the existing joists be cut down the thickness of the ply, so your overall height doesn't change?
FHB did a review (was the cover article) on all the different decking material's this past spring. Also why not put down a layer of bitchathane directly over the joist first?Spell check just asked if I wanted to change the spelling of bitchathane to birthstone. What the heck is that?
Edited 10/8/2005 10:04 am ET by reinvent
Hans-
As I went through this, I also did not like the idea of letting the floor do the work of a roof. That's not usually part of the program. I think you would be better off to design a roofing system under that floor, then do away with your watertight requirement. I'm not sure exactly how, but I think I would be looking to put in the "roof", then put sleepers on top of it to carry the floor.
Don't get too tied up with the beam pockets. That's not the only way to attach beams to a structure. If you fill them and put a ledger board up directly against the foundation, it can go at any height you need. Maybe angle the "roof" beams down and pitch them away from the house, then covered with an appropriate roofing, then lay the new deck on top, like a balcony roof/porch combo.
It's definitely more work, but would likely be a better fix.
Don K.
Ah Ha,
I get it now. That's why I'm here... to learn things about building, and today I get a bonus appreciation of where I live. My mental image was of a more enclosed porch, which may be another option. Go ahead and enclose it with big convertable windows. Although, that may not be possible with the neighbor's porch situation. I don't think I'd take this job right before a wedding. Good luck with both.
Jeremy
Ipe is supposedly sustainably harvested, according to the tags or stamps I saw. And I believe there is a tongue-and-grove 1X board that should make a great porch deck.Personally, I think the idea of doing a roof deck first, and sitting the porch on top of it is a bit better.
I think it is unrealistic to expect a decking material to be waterproof. Further, a composite or plastic decking material is going to expand and contract with seasonal temperature changes yeilding gaps of changing sizes.
They do have under deck drainage systems that you may want to look into.