I’ve got new construction sitting on a slab which is connected to solid bed rock a foot or two down. Electrical inspector wants one of two grounding systems, a Modified ground ring NEC 250.52.4 but getting down 30 inches through solid rock in an area where large equipment won’t fit is a problem, the second a concrete encased electrode 250.52.3 unfortunaly the concrete people didn’t ask if I wanted a concrete encased electrode but.. I took hi resolution, close-up photos of every inch of the rebar system around the footing of the slab before the pour and I have in-ground plumbing holes in my slab floor and behold! there on the edge of the hole is rebar passing through. I can see in the photos it’s a 20′ stick of #4, wire tied to all the rest of the rebar, I could easily tie into this bar, the photos prove it meets the code in my mind anyway. The inspector says no, the rebar must have been laid for the sole purpose of being an electrode, code says at least 20′ I have that and and more. In that code section the last sentence says “Reinforcing bars shall be permitted to be bonded together by the usual steel tie wires or other effective means” what does this mean? Earllier another inspecter with expeirence in rocky areas said I could do the Ground Ring system by laying it buried next to the slab for 20′ augmented with 2 8′ bars not at 30″ depth, but they said no to that also. Here in New Mexico you can get inspectors working out of the same office giving you differnt explanation of code and how to do things. I’m a home owner builder need your help.
Johh
Replies
They shouldn't buy your "Ufer" ground based on photographs. The grounding method you speak is very important, and should be specifically inspected. Your screwed. Or, you screwed yourself.
Can you poor another parallel footing with a ufer in it?
Maybe I'm screwed but looking in my hole I see rebar running through it, looking at good photos I can see that piece of rebar in relation to the hole, how long it is and where it ties into others, what am I missing?
Plain and simple
Your inspector did not inspect it
What ever happens I would tie into the rebar you can see in the plumbing access holes. You cant have too much "ground". A job I was doing last year was at a commercial warehouse. I saw a big wire comming out of the ground with a state inspection sticker on it. I asked the electrician what it was..."its a wire connected to the rebar,they made us put it on" Oh ! its a Ufer I said. "A what? says the sparky. I went on to explain what a Ufer was while leaning on the shovel I was using to clean a ditch for him.
They said I can't use that rebar so I said the heck with it, I don't need your Ufer and I don't need your modified ground ring...what's this loon gonna do forget about grounding his service? Nope I'll use the existing service which is located 10' from the building and conforms to NEC. Done with this sleep stopper problem and the unpleasent turns this thread has taken, thanks Joe.
NEC 2008 now allows vertical in addition to slab Ufer. With soft rock it could be possible to drill a shaft and fill with concrete/conductor. Just a suggestion.
They said I can't use that rebar so I said the heck with it, I don't need your Ufer and I don't need your modified ground ring...what's this loon gonna do forget about grounding his service? Nope I'll use the existing service which is located 10' from the building and conforms to NEC. Done with this sleep stopper problem and the unpleasent turns this thread has taken, thanks Joe.
There you go, you showed us
Missed your repour question, I was thinking can I dig down to the bottom of the footing lay my 20' of electrode then pour concrete over it? would this fly?
Thanks for the I screwed myself, but maybe the archetect could have suggested that that electrode be in the slab, maybe the concrete contrator could have asked if there should be one included, maybe the inspector could have asked where's the electrode.
You are like so many of the others replying to questions from us out here trying to get answers for our question without feeling humiliated from your arrogant know it all stance.
I think (code books are in Utah, I'm in New Mex) the 2006 NEC requires the Ufer, NM is using 2006 NEC so someone should have caught this before now.
On the other hand, I might be wrong. 2006 IRC wants Ufer too I think.
Could be wrong there too.
Either way, you Inspector is gonna make you do what he wants. Pouring a trench with the required ground is probably what it's gonna take to get it passed.
Joe H
Hey Joe,
I'm in NM also, doing a trench and pour would be easy, everythings been dug up already, I would be digging through disturbed dirt, I could go to the bottom of the footing if needed but the inspector will say that because I didn't consider this system when the foundation was poured that I can't now consider it now.
I'm addressing this to Bill because I think he can tell you for sure, but I'm pretty sure the additional trench with rebar is to code.
Joe H
.
Thanks for the I screwed myself, but maybe the archetect could have suggested that that electrode be in the slab,
Not his job, and likely against his professional standards to even suggest electrical design criteria
maybe the concrete contrator could have asked if there should be one included,
Not his job, and likely he is not too skookum on Ufer grounds
maybe the inspector could have asked where's the electrode.
Which inspector?
Where was your electrical contractor during all of this?
You are like so many of the others replying to questions from us out here trying to get answers for our question without feeling humiliated from your arrogant know it all stance.
I'm just plain mean
But in real life, some people learn to keep their mouths closed, unless it is their jobs, because "no good deed goes unpunished". Is it the concrete guys job to double guess you or the sparky? Alot of times, a sub will ask a impertinent question, and the answer from the General will be "are you doing electrical work now, in addition to concrete?"
I'm thinking that the electrician wasn't brought in early enough.
And at this point, you bring up the fact that you're acting as the sparky?
That's right I'm sparky and you join the lot that thinks construction or any trade is no place for the enterprising, self reliant, skilled DYI, just like the inspectors you give us no respect for what we might be able to accomplish but you need to hold on by your finger nails to your waining trade. Good luck buckoo
As someone with no dog in this fight, I don't see where you're getting this crankiness. Seems like you're displacing or transferring the anger to the other posters when the screw up is at your building site.
You're here on a professional site whinning that "no one told me". What do you expect. Have fun redoing your Ufer, buckoo.
You're here on a professional site whinning that "no one told me". What do you expect.
I think if you were to read the first page of this site, you'd find it's about helping each other.
Welcome to Breaktime, Fine Homebuilding's free online forum, where you can learn from the veterans, share your own secrets of success, and simply chat about all aspects of home building.View ImageNo matter how diverse our backgrounds, we have at least one thing in common: We're all interested in improving our home-building skills and techniques. Joining the Breaktime community is one of the most entertaining and enlightening ways to get there. Whether you're a beginner looking for help with your first project or an expert eager to pass along time-savers and tips, you'll find what you're looking for right here. Before you jump in, we have some simple requests that will keep the conversation flowing:For beginners...Don't be afraid to ask questions. Our forum is teeming with great minds waiting to be tapped.Let us know how it went. We'll toast your hits and troubleshoot your misses.And...Remember us when you make it to the big leagues. When you're all out of questions, come back ready with answers.
Guess that's you, Mister Big League?
Anything to contribute other than "I'm smarter than you are" ?
Joe H
####, a smart guy asks questions first. He doesn't whine and blame, and then yell at everyone because they think construction takes some brains and fore-thought
Yeah,all those people could have helped you, maybe you never asked?..... But you are the GC, its your responsibility,cant blame the subs, I dont even see an alectrician mentioned.
You blew it. Welcome to the real world.
If you are acting as your own general contractor you take on all the responsibility, and the cost of the redos, along with any savings.
I've probably passed thousands of inspections.... Faild a bunch too.... Never had an inspector accept a picture for anything...
Anyway... Take a look at this thread. Maybe you can find something to help you there.
I have heard a lot of speculating and chest beating but not the ONLY right answer. Ask the inspector!
If the structural inspector agrees all the rebar was lapped and tied you should be OK.
... and I have allowed a picture as an inspector and used a picture as a builder.
You beat me to it.
If a footing/foundation inspection was passed the EI should accept that ashaving the proper rebar/tie requirements. He does this all the time around here. The ufr conection is normaly just a piece of #4 stubbed out of the top of the stem wall near the location of the SE.
BI and EI work for the local counties around here but are also responsible to the state Building and Codes department.
Each cvoncrete contractor that bid on my house, shop, kennel, and garage ask about ufr's. All of them said the local BI made them stub a piece of rebar for it or they would pass the foundation inspection.
His solution may be as simple as a couple of phone calls to set up a meeting with the BI, himself and the EI.
""Reinforcing bars shall be permitted to be bonded together by the usual steel tie wires or other effective means" what does this mean? "'
Here that means that you have a dedicated 20' length of bar in the footing,(not in the footing and a stem wall) and the "usual" steel tie wires are acceptable to tie additional bars to it so that the ground can be brought up out of the footing and into the area the ground strap from the panel can be tied to.
I have forgotten to put the UFER in (when they first started using them I just couldn't seem to remember to get them in.
Always the inspector allowed a separate trench with either rod or copper wire to be dug alongside the footing, encase the rod or wire in concrete, bring the connector wire to the panel ground strap.
Really you need to visit the BO's office and have a sit down with both the inspectors at the same time, get then on one page and go from there. I doubt they will approve the tied connection after the fact because as I understand it the connection between the 20' and the portion brought up to day light for the ground strap must be encased in concrete.
If you forget the Ufer here they make you chip down to the rebar and make the connection. They know the rebar is lapped and tied because of the structural inspection. The same is true of swimming pool bonding.
Even when the rebar is done in time, there still won't be 20' of the one they use in the concrete because we use the "turned up rod" method.
It is just tied to the structural rods with the 48x or greater lap.http://gfretwell.com/electrical/ufer.jpg
Edited 2/26/2009 11:37 am ET by gfretwell
Here the "turn up' is a separate piece. Rod in the footing has to be the full 20'. Failed an inspection because of that one once.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
"Here the "turn up' is a separate piece. Rod in the footing has to be the full 20'.Failed an inspection because of that one once."I assume you are not required to have a ring or two of "continuous" rebar in the footing. Here we require 2 rings of #5. They just snap tie the "up" piece to that.
Footing rebar is not considered to be the UFER here. It has to be a separate piece of bar.
I can be tied to the footing bar however.
Edited 2/26/2009 8:48 pm by dovetail97128
They have missed the basic concept
IIRC they are following the exact wording of the code. I may be wrong though.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I passed one last week where the 'turned up' portion was from the 20'er.
I engaged the inspector in vigorous discussion on other topics early on as to possibly make him less scrupulous on other matters...
perhaps it worked in that instance too...
I just came from a job. I've been nurse-maiding this pool job along, working with the primarty contractor, making SURE everything is ready before the pour. Naturally, the customer is pushing to get things done ... I can't blame her ... but I've been able to reign things in. Rebar - bond - inspect - THEN pour.
The reasoning is plain: it's a whole lot easier to make changes before the concrete has set.
Well, the inspector came, sprinkled his holy water, and the pour is on. No problems.
Look, the point of bonding it ... to make sure things work right! It's not just about passing inspection, getting papers signed, or following a codebook recipe. There were some aspects to my pool job that I felt deserved extra attention .... so extra attention was paid to those details. It never hurts to be able to show / demonstrate / explain why you went 'beyond the minimum.'
Darn few folks willing accept the absolute minimum when it comes to their food, clothing, or shelter .... there's no reason to insist that our customers get the absolute minimum either.