Hey Guys, Whats the best way to go about pouring my floor in my garage? 22×22
1. Stone first? How thick?
2. Wire in slab?
3. How thick of floor?
4. I will cut floor for expansion (do I use expansion around the perimeter)
Thanx for the help, Lou
Hey Guys, Whats the best way to go about pouring my floor in my garage? 22×22
1. Stone first? How thick?
2. Wire in slab?
3. How thick of floor?
4. I will cut floor for expansion (do I use expansion around the perimeter)
Thanx for the help, Lou
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Replies
What is there now? Block kneewalls?
What sort of soil?
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
There are block knee walls and the soil is somewhat sandy.
Lou,
Consider putting some rebar in a beam footing that is behind where the front wheels to your cars would normally stop. It should cutdown any load cracking.
Also, if you are considering a broom finish, please get the contractor to broom it in the direction of front toward the outside garage door. You'll know you did it right when you sweep out your garage because it is easier and cleaner when you're finished.
Bill
1. Depends. I default to driveway topping, aka, crusher run, a mix of from very fine to about 1". Thickness depends.
2. Reinforcment depends.
3. Depends.
4. (Depends.)
Perimeter drainage depends.
Vapor barrior under slab depends.
Footing depends.
Elevation profile depends.
Depends on what? Local conditions.
Dang, Lou, you've been around long enough to know that you'll never get an answer until you've given a lot of details.
SamT
I think you want more than Depends for drainage.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
you need to see a urologists...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
BTDT, it was such a mess that they just took everything out ands replaced the works with a PVC drain to open air.SamT
ios there least a petcock on that system...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Yep. Petcock and holding tank. Gravity drain.SamT
vented???Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Of course -- code requires it. Putting the vent through the roof was painful, though.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
I'll bet...
Ron had to give up on the baseball style caps then...
suppose a top hat is order...
wunder what kind of high wind type he'd need with the top down...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
No, but it is gassy.SamT
YOU STAY RIGHT THERE...........
I'll ask around and see who'd be willing to help out and we'll be right over to put one in fer ya...
can't have ya running around under the effluence of all the back pressure...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
varrior barrier 100 % for sure
6 inch slab, not that much more and you really need it for load factor
wire ok, I dont like it, fiber ok, rebar if you have some extra money.The rock under the slab is good, we just dont do it here.
and you got to have footers, no question, they hold up the building
..I'm a man, you got to respect me as a man, I'm a man
Edited 8/13/2007 11:49 am by brownbagg
Hey Brownie. Is your personnel preference for fiber? Or is Rebar the best, but only if you can afford it. Most people dismiss fiber for some reason and it seems to me like you actually like it. I like the concept of it but know nothing about it. I value your opinion because it's your life and you don't BS when it comes to concrete.
I guess I should just ask. What's the best reinforcment for concrete?
Please everyone else I'm just asking Brownbagg. I don't want a debate on this. I value his opinion and everytime he gives it it seems like he get piled on for no reason.
.
"Everything is under control. I'M gonna go make some pies now." Dinosaur 07
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPONTneuaF4
hey - I'm not everyone else, so I'll throw in an observation -
we poured my shop/garage/storage as we could afford over a number of years - there's 'fiber' reinforced concrete in one section (mesh also in that section) - the guys who have done the work did a nice job - the fiber section doesn't sweep nearly as well as the other - the fiber that is exposed in the finishing catches small particles - it's gotten better over the years as the surface gets worn, and I'm sure it could be coated with something to make it smooth - but the initial product has a markedly different surface property compared to 'regular' concrete -
"there's enough for everyone"
I've heard you can use a torch to burn that stuff off.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
I've heard you can use a torch to burn that stuff off. (fiber in concrete)
maybe so - IIRC the fiber in my mix was fiberglass - don't think a torch would do much for that -
sounds like modern stuff is plastic of one sort or another -
"there's enough for everyone"
Good point about the sweeping. I've only used it once on a slab and I've never been back to check on it.
I'm wondering more about strength and cracking. I'm thinking that there would be less chance of cracking with all the fiber in there.
.
"Everything is under control. I'M gonna go make some pies now." Dinosaur 07
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPONTneuaF4
I've poured with and with out fiber. Fiber seems to help with srink cracking (small hairline cracks in the surface) durring the cure time. Major cracking is controled by proper sub slab prep, cure rate and control joint placement. I kind of like Gabe's 100 square foot guideline for control cuts, and with the new green cut saws avail;able now, I want it cut as soon as the trowling machine comes off the floor. I follow that with a water rinse and then a good quality cure and seal.
No expert like BB or Gabe, but have used both of thier advice in combinations over the last 1000+ yards and found what works for me.
Dave
Thanks Dave.
.
Whale Oil Beef Hooked.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPONTneuaF4
we poured my shop/garage/storage as we could afford over a number of years - there's 'fiber' reinforced concrete in one section (mesh also in that section) - the guys who have done the work did a nice job - the fiber section doesn't sweep nearly as well as the other - the fiber that is exposed in the finishing catches small particles
Sounds like your guy did it right - too many contractors want to replace wire mesh with fiber.
If the surface is troweled properly, however, very little of the fiber will be exposed - you really won't notice it.
rebar is for load factors. If a slab is not going to be loaded with weight, rebar does nothing. Just lays theredifferent subject, stress crackingwelded wire does nothing for load factors. its for stress cracking only. I would say that welded wire and fiber are close to be equal if installed correctly.Fiber is simple, make a call to concrete company and its done, no waste, no left overs, no laborwelded wire must be bought, delivery to site, cut (Tools expense) and the labor place in hole with out it rolling up and hurting someone (workman comp) and then during placement it must be pulled up with them walking on top of it. 98% of time it is installed wrong and not doing its job. and then the wire is only in a 1/4 inch of the slab.Fiber is in 100% of the slab going in every direction. Up, down, sideways, up top down bottom.Yes I like fiber. I break cylinder with fiber daily and they will stay together in the break machine. They will crack but not fall apart.I wish they would out lay welded wire just for the safety factor.Ask Gabe, see what he think, he does a lot of concrete too
http://www.syntheticresources.com/concrete/fibervswire.php
http://www.uritc.uri.edu/media/finalreportspdf/536101.pdf
..I'm a man, you got to respect me as a man, I'm a manEdited 8/13/2007 5:33 pm by brownbagg
Edited 8/13/2007 5:34 pm by brownbagg
Thanks that's the type of answer I wanted. "This is this, and that, is that." I'm gonna save that to my favorites for later use.
.
"Everything is under control. I'M gonna go make some pies now." Dinosaur 07
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPONTneuaF4
I thought I had figured out what I was going to do in pouring my shop floor in the near future. Unfortunatley, this thread has somewhat muddied the waters, so to speak. This will be a 30'x40' (the biggest size the county would let me build, unfortunately) equipment repair and welding shop. There will be occasional oil spills and some hot slag on the floor from the welding. I would also like to be able to easily slide under equipment without necessarily using a bunch of jacks but under which there is not enough space to use a creeper. Will the poly fibers soak up and retain spilled oil? Is there someway to finish concrete with fibers so that it has a smooth surface? Is the presence of the poly fibers likely to increase spalling of the concrete from the hot slag hitting the floor?
http://www.miracote.com
Look for their APU sealer product. A two part ureathane that is UV stable. They use it to cover stained or decorative ceement.
> I would also like to be able to easily slide under equipment without necessarily using a bunch of jacks but under which there is not enough space to use a creeper.
Consider designing a grease pit into your floor -- say 4 ft wide by 4 ft deep, maybe 20+ ft. long. Give it a cover removable in sections, strong enough to drive on, and steps to get in and out from the ends. Toss an old rolling office chair down there, and you can sit in comfort and torque up oil pan bolts.
-- J.S.
But check code before you do something like that, or add a floor drain. Lots of rules for fire safety, polution control, et al.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
no,yes,no.I have a 36 x 30 which I do the same, weld grind automotive. even has a car lift. You really need a six inch slab, it controls some of the bounce and will hold up to heavy equpiment. also if you want a lift later you need six inch. Must have footer, thats a given. After the pour you will never see the fibers again. They will breakoff. and if you epoxy the floor like so many like to do, they will lay down...I'm a man, you got to respect me as a man, I'm a man
Not everyone has the success with fiber that BB has.
The key to fiber is that the placement is "idiot proof" , but the fibre being supplied nowadays is very short in length, and recommended for assisting in the prevention of microcracking.
Unless you can get a P Eng to spec a product...stay away.
True it is, that most wire mesh is installed incorrectly...but..it is still the most reliable and approved method for re-inforcing slabs.
If fiber were as good as some say, you would see it in high-rise and other demanding applications. For now........you won't as it hasn't made the grade.
Best choice for your slab is 6x6x6 guage welded wire mesh in 8ft x 20 ft flats.
Allow to lap 6 inches on the sides and 1 foot on the ends. Lay as random pattern brick.
Chair(elevate) the mesh on proprietary units bought from a re-inforcing supply co.
Subgrade prep should be able to pass a Proctor density test of 95% or better.
Elevating the mesh before the pour and using a line pump , conveyor, or boom pump to place your concrete will ensure the mesh is at the proper height.
Allow for crack control by sawcutting the slab within the first 24 hrs of placement.
Use a spray on curing compound to slow down hydration.
'nuff said. Cheers.
J.S. - I have no love for grease pits, I will have a 7 ton, 2 post Eagle Lift, but I don't quite trust it enough to put my 6 ton forklift on it and work under it...Floor coverings. Lots of conflicting advice as to the best floor coverings. The epoxy coatings that I have seen would cost about as much as the slab itself. Epoxy coatings are not exactly the best choice for resisting high temperatures. I think epoxy starts to fail around 500 degrees, so a chunk of slag would probably do a number on it. I don't know about the polyurethane, but I would guess it is also expensive and may not hold up well to welding. I am going to talk to the welding shop folks at the local college and see what they use to seal their concrete floors as it seems to have held up pretty well for a number of years of student use.BB - The plans for my slab that I received had a thickened edge rather than a regular footer. That slab design didn't have the allowance for the lift, so will have to be redone. If one uses wire for crack control and rebar for strength, is the wire just laid down on top of the rebar or where is it placed in relation to the rebar? For cutting shallow groves for crack control, what is the best material to fill them in with after they are cut so that they don't interfere with sweeping the floor and catching all sorts of crud?
Felicitations CaseyR from CAN. !
I'll tackle the crack control grooves question as it seems to have slipped by unnoticed.
1) "Shallow grooves" ...not exactly, should be at least 1/3 slab thickness deep to become an "active" saw cut. You want the concrete to crack all along this cut. An earlier poster suggests this be done before 24hrs. passes. My experience is the sooner the better provided the joint doesn't ravel as you cut it. Even at less than 6 hrs. after a large pour, some of my saw cuts did not become active and a few random cracks appeared roughly parallel to the saw cuts.
2) Saw cuts to be based on roughly 10' squares, (it is supposed to be calculated as a factor of your slab thickness, however for residential floors less than 10" thick, 10' is a good rule of thumb):rectangular sections are more apt to randomly crack than square sections. (ie. cut two 6'X6' squares rather than one 6'X12' rectangle) Also cut to isolate any embedded posts or piers from the main field (if you have any).
3) Although it's not cheap, the best material for filling the saw cuts, IMHO, is a flexibilized epoxy (ie. Loadflex by Sika as an example). Fill the cut completely full top to bottom with no backer rod. Don't listen to the sage advice to simple pour the mixed material into the saw cut from a can, its too viscous & sets up before you get very far & you end up scrapping the remainder. Get a pneumatic caulking gun and a cheap tube of any caulk that comes in a plastic cartridge. Waste (or use) the cheap caulk & save the cartridge, fill that with the loadflex and force it into the cut. (I used 45 PSI to get mine to flow). The load flex can support wheel loads & still has enough give to allow seasonal or thermally induced movement of your slab. The trick is to get it in there with few voids and ensure adhesion to the saw cut walls. Use a steady hand & avoid stopping & starting the flow once you get it going. ...Air bubbles are bad, solid material is good. ...My floor was 7" thick and I needed a plastic tube to get the stuff to the bottom of the cut. (I ripped off some of the plastic drinking box straws from my daughter's refillable lunch box containers and used a tiny hose clamp to get it to stay on the copper tube I made up to go inside the converted caulking cartridge.)
4)I have acid etched my saw cuts with Muriatic Acid poured into the cleaned out cuts, flushed them with copious amounts of clear water and then pressure washed them to make sure they were clean then allowed them to dry completely before filling. The idea being you want the stuff to stick to the concrete not the dirt! (Acid etching also produces a profile on the concrete as rough as a bear's azz!)
5) One of the main ideas behind filling the saw cuts is to allow them to move but reduce their sharp edges from failing as a point load (as in a wheel load) tries to break the corners off the cuts, making a grand canyon from a narrow slot. Another important function of the fill is to prevent dirt ratcheting from happening. That's what I call the effect of solid material eventually filling the cut when it is at its widest & preventing the cut from returning to its narrower dimension when the concrete shrinks in cooler temperatures. This goes on & on as time goes by and your initially narrow cut gets wider & more filled with stuff every year. This can break up your slab.
All this being said, my preference would be a cast-in-place control joint of the type that commercial guys use, I've just never found any one that will part with some to help out a little DIY guy like myself.
Sincerely,
STAINLESS
Edited 8/14/2007 8:47 pm ET by STAINLESS
Edited 8/14/2007 9:25 pm ET by STAINLESS
How about using fiber AND wire mesh?
That would be like buying insurance :-)
All the other "keys" remain the same.
98% of time it is installed wrong and not doing its job. and then the wire is only in a 1/4 inch of the slab.
I agree with that - mesh has to be properly installed to do essentially any good. I'd rather have fiber than poorly installed mesh. Having said that, though, properly installed mesh is better than fiber, from a practical and engineering perspective.
If I had a contractor do a slab, and he used fiber but no mesh, and the slab cracked, I'd be inclined to sue him. Huge liability there for the contractor, under the workmanship statutes.
Sam, I'm the cabinet maker!! Remember? Its been 15years since I've done this work. I just want to do it right!!!
-Lou
4" slab minimum - 5-6" is better, but overkill just for car parking -
unless you have plans to tear out, put wire mesh in the slab -
base isn't tremedously important as long as it's settled/compacted - drainage is important, both around the perimeter and within the garage -
Thickness and reenforcement should be based on the expected vehicles to be in the garage. For heavy trucks or farm equipment you should probably go with tied rebar vs mesh.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
OK, so you have a footing and block foundation and want to pour a slab inside that. "somewhat sandy" makes me wonder if it is also somewhat good topsoil which is somewhat piss poor base for a slab.
We get a lot of clay, a bit of sand here and there, and some humus. none of that works foir load bearing, so we take it out 18" down, and then backfill with stone and gravel, compacting it in lifts of 6-8". Then the slab at 4" unless some heavy work or equiptment will be on it
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Of course, one thing hasn't been mentioned: If you have the time, the thing to do is to put rock in the garage, not quite full, but building a lip near the entrance so vehicles can get in and out easily, then use the garage for a year or so. Make an attempt to park cars differently every time you enter (or at least move stuff around inside so that the parking spaces move from time to time).
Will help assure that the base is sufficiently compacted in those areas that will be carrying the heaviest load.
Been told time and time again, even by fellow engineers, "stone don't compact". Well, I beg to differ, it does settle and compact, in a way. I put 8" of crushed stone under my basement slab, and ran over it for a year with foot traffic, a small tractor and piles of lumber and beams. Then we topped it with another 4" and I hit it with a big plate compactor just before the pour.
The concrete has mesh, I don't recall what gauge, but it was more for supporting the radiant floor tubing and not so much for reinforcing. The local batch plant puts poly fiber in the mix that's kinda like shaving a pushbroom into your concrete - long stiff fibers that stick up after the surface is done. My concrete guy handed me a box of what I think was nylon fiber - short soft fibers, about 2" long, and told me to put in one bag of fiber per yard. We power troweled the floor smooth, it ain't like glass but it's very easy to sweep and keep clean. No cracks anywhere, I did not cut any joints.